mlehman Best wishes on the surgery and a good recovery, Joe. Thanks Mike Joe
Best wishes on the surgery and a good recovery, Joe.
Thanks Mike
Joe
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Guys
Thanks for all the info on whole house surge protectors. It will be a while until I am able to have one installed due to upcoming surgery and some other issues. When I do do it I'll let you know.
We put them directly above the house distribution breaker panel. In some of the larger custom houses (or the one wired for filmmaking) which had multiple main breakers you could put it in the line to that; if there are different service voltages than the 'usual' three-wire 240 plus ground into the breaker panel you're best off with a separate one for each.
Upon reflection the better way to provide "whole house" surge is to divide the service boxes below the main breaker and put the 'electronic grade' or UPS whole house protection on a branch that has no motors or heavy intermittent loads -- no HVAC or boosters, no laundry equipment, no refrigerators. Our smart houses were wired that way, with distinctive outlet colors for the 'protected' branches.
(If you use UPS be VERY mindful of islanding concerns. In my experience many domestic electricians are ignorant of some of the concerns that arise...)
Joe,
Let us know how that goes, rough cost, etc. It's something we should look into here, because it's a capability I came to rely on (keeping in mind some events aren't entirely preventable.)
Randy
Thanks for the explanation. My electrician has suggested that I have one installed at the breaker box.
If it was connected in front of the meter, that explains it, if more than a basic transiet supressor, it probably also had some noise filtering as well, as the Tripp-Lite surge supressors I use at my workbench have. This would interfere with the over the wire transmission of the smart meter. Installed on the customer side of the meter, it should be fine.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
This occurred when they came around to install new "smart" meters for some reason. They just pulled it, said it was mine to keep since I'd paid for it, but they were no longer allowing them despite the fact they sold it to me.
It plugged into the incoming power underneath the meter itself, which plugged in on top of it. Never had an issue with it and it made for a neat, clean install.
I'm sure I could probably get something to install on the customer side of the supply, but it wouldn't be cheap.
mlehmanI used to have a whole house surge protector. Worked great for 20 years or so, then the power company decided they were pulling them out.
Mike
What was the reason the power company decided to pull them out?
JoeinPA,
I used to have a whole house surge protector. Worked great for 20 years or so, then the power company decided they were pulling them out.
riogrande5761 Looks like the repair costs for the command station is very close to the costs of buying a new one. Bummer.
Looks like the repair costs for the command station is very close to the costs of buying a new one. Bummer.
In this case, yes, within $20 or so (my new Power Pro CS box only - no power supply, no hand controller - cost was $220), but that was the most expensive repair you can have, more or less, on a Power Pro. More typical repairs would come in considerably short of this.
And I can report that the repaired Power Pro showed up in today's mail.
Thanks for the clarification and detailed explanation Overmod. I've been contemplating having one of these installed and you've provided me the information I needed.
JoeinPAHow about a "whole house" surge protector. Are these the answer and are they worth the cost for installation?
The big problem with them is that any causes of shorting, noise,spikes, or other electrical problem inside the house, from any source including air conditioners and machine tools, have no protection given by the whole-house device at all. You would be surprised how often this can be a source of problems, including from accidents. A short or ground fault need not be catastrophic or self-destroying, either, but still dangerous to modern electronics.
My rule even with the best whole-house protector is to put individual protectors with a high joule rating, or UPS units with full isolation between 'delivered' protected AC and line, on anything you consider important or expensive. And regularly check them to ensure their surge-protecting elements still test good. And make sure you have a GOOD dioded ground, capable of sinking what may be a heavy amperage (albeit for a comparatively short time) effectively to ground -- if you are even the least little bit unsure, get someone to put in a heavy LONG ground rod and connect thoroughly to all your surge devices...
How about a "whole house" surge protector. Are these the answer and are they worth the cost for installation?
About a month ago I was sitting at my computer when all of a sudden the lights flickered, I heard a loud pop, and the lights in the neighborhood went dark. It was a clear night and no wind so I figured a transformer must have blown nearby.
The spike blew out the replacement surge protector that I mentioned in my earlier post from July. Along with the usual charred electrical odor*, there was noticeable singed spot directly underneath the surge protector on the rug. So it took a huge hit but it protected my modem and wi-fi router - just like it was designed to do.
*[Out of curiosity - right after the incident - I pulled apart the old surge protector and the inside was clearly blackened with soot. The odor alone told me that the unit had given up the ghost.]
For the replacement I went with a surge "arrestor" this time around, which is specifically designed for lightning strikes. It's rated @ 4320 Joules and has enough outlets that I can plug in everything rather than in two separate units. It also has a couple of USB outlets for charging phones.
So, over a 6-month period I've lost two surge protectors: one due to lightning and the other due to a blown transformer. Needless to say, I don't plug in anything electronically critical that isn't protected.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Mike very common with Lightning strikes. Had it happen to me a few years back. It was not a direct hit but the railroad track and all the plug in buss acts like an antenna and the EMP the strike emits does it's dirty work. When i leave my system down for a few days or so I always unplug the command station from the 110 v and the railroad. I also don't leave any handsets plugged in as they can also be affected. --- Ken
rrinkerJust pointing out another vector for damage - it's not always a spike throught he power supply side. Back in my university days when I worked for the computer shop, after every severe electrical storm, we had dozens of repairs to make.
Yeah, we also discussed that. There's plenty of wire strung around the layout that could pick up the EMP from a lightning strike nearby. I do have a surge protector on the power supply side now, but don't expect it to be a panacea. Given the closeness of the strike, this also accounts for why we came through with no other apparent issues, as most other electronics here, except my radios, aren't hooked up to such a network of wire that could act as an antenna to pickup EMP.
On the other hand, a nearby strike is somewhat the luck of the draw. It may or may not cause an issue, because EMP pulses are not a uniform event radiating outward equally in all directions. I happen to have a bit of insight into such things because of my research on nuclear intelligence. I had one informant who worked on EMP detection systems the Air Force relies on for initial notice that a nuclear detonation has occurred. The pulses are notable in that they can offer information about the direction and strength of a nuclear explosion, even below ground.
Thus, if you happen to be where one of these "spikes" pass through, things get fried even if you're not so close as to think it might be an issue. If you're in a location where the spike is reduced or not present except close in, it's OK.
Still, get the surge protector.
It took USPS 3 days to get my book I ordered from Kalmbach from Pittsburgh to here. It's a 6 hour drive. That's not 3 days to my door, that's 3 days from leaving one distribution center until it reached the next one. Another day from there to hit my local post office and get delivered.
Last quarter's utility bill fromt he township (sewer and trash) - I NEVER got that, and I wasn't the only one. Luckily I thought about it before it was past due and wondered that I hadn't gotten one, and could log in and pay it. But I get at least one piece of junk mail every day - that seems to ALWAYS make it.
richhotrain FlattenedQuarter I've had a dozen or more packages delivered on tracked and on time by USPS in the past month Count your blessings! Rich
FlattenedQuarter I've had a dozen or more packages delivered on tracked and on time by USPS in the past month
I've had a dozen or more packages delivered on tracked and on time by USPS in the past month
Count your blessings!
Rich
I use to use a uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS. Low wattage type. Not expensive. Plugs into wall outlet and has surge protection. Got it from Amazon some years ago.
I buy a lot from Amazon and use Prime and Smile. free shipping. Shop local. lol
They even sell trains.
I use to use NCE Power Cab.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Just pointing out another vector for damage - it's not always a spike throught he power supply side. Back in my university days when I worked for the computer shop, after every severe electrical storm, we had dozens of repairs to make. All computers on the campus were connected by a communications system that used the serial port - networks like Ethernet didn;t go far enough, and using fiber for the long hauls would have cost more than the GDP of a medium size country, so RS232 serial it was (blazing fast 9600 - though it could do 19.2K bps as we found out and a group of us petitioned the telecommunications office to up our speeds). After every storm, there was always a slew of blown out serial ports. It almost never got past there though, the old serial interface chips were pretty robust. But we carried a shelf full of the two different chips (needed one for transmit, one for receive) because we went through them like anything.
Randy,
There was much more damage than was apparent to the naked eye. He started rattling off a list of issues they encountered, then cut to the chase, because when you have that many issues, you just swap the board out. A few minor issues might make the board economically repairable, but at a certain point you just swap out for new.
That particular chip is the RS232 interface chip. It MIGHT server another purpose. Just because that one blew a chunk out of itself doesn't mean it's the only damaged bit, but it also could be the surge came in via the computer connection, if you have one.
And we now have at least one datapoint about NCE repairs. They said it's been busy, but just about six weeks later, my repaired Power Pro command station is on it's way back to me in the morning.
Mike at NCE said yep, looked like a lightning issue to them when they started going through it. Basically the whole upper board in my old command station needed to be replaced. With return shipping a little under $200 and everything on the replacement board is updated to the most current version.
On the booster side, it was a warranty issue with the new box.
I McGyvered things to work while waiting for the return of the DOA box. After all, I had a command station in one box and a booster in the other that was good. I carefully did a swap and built the working command station that I needed. I built a complete DOA command station with the bad parts of each, labeling them carefully, but figured this best protected the boards in transit. I checked with NCE and they said, sure, just label it clearly.
They will have it in the mail first thing on Thursday.
Further research indicates all I need is a new Power Pro box. Already have the power supply and radio stuff. New box on its way Monday as is in stock (fingers crossed.) Got a surge protector and cleaned up some on the older system as it has sufficient outlets for everything inc the wall warts on one big panel. Also tracking down a couple of other circuit sources that need protection. When wiring stretches over three rooms, it's complicated.
Planning on sending the burnt box back to NCE soon so I'll have backup should this ever happen again. For now, the trusty Power Cab is keeping things moving.
I am sitting next to both train rooms right now, where I generally am and have been for most of the last two decades as a late in life grad student who restarted academia when things looked great, but who graduated 4 degrees later with some debt and no reasonable job prospects without moving far afield, difficult to do as a married guy whose wife has the solid job in the family. My stuff is fairly widely read in the narrow space it occupies, but not $$ or jobs, even temp stuff at community colleges is scarce to nonexistent. I retired. so also here more than ever.
Not complaining here, but I'm pretty much here when I'm working as a historian (too rarely) or not doing things that I regularly pop in and out of boths rooms with the office with JMRI on the computer running things in my office.
I turn out the massive LED arrays when not actually doing work or operating, but maintain night lighting (thus the "Night Scene") which often suffices. There's usually something going on so turning things off is reserved for vacations, when it's done easily enough with a couple of more switches. I'm also an insomniac, so I'm wandering in there at 3am to work on something when I should'nt be flipping switches except to operate.
Such integrated electrical/control/computer systems are something like what LCC is desgned to handle cohesively, so maybe then this will sort itself out. It's likely that with computers being intergrated into our layout systems some part of virtually everyone's layout will be always on in the future. Until then, I am careful to limit such circuits to things I have protected wisely. I don't have a lot of extraneous loads in the main room, the other is a utility room, so...It is something that I've had virtually no problems with, I have never lost a Tortoise, for instance. It's anecdotal data, but with LED lighting and the operators desire for depiction of multiple lighting dispalys on and off the track, it's probably more common than people think that this treats the sort of circutry we commonly use in the hobby gently in a way that seems to have positive results.
BTW, yeah, the box flashes the Status lights on the boosters and somewhere I got an error message about the lack of comms with the Command Station. I can pull the jumper between the Command station and the Booster on the Power Pro then plug it back in and It get steady red lights (good) and the status light on the right for the Command Station is steady yellow also...except nothing works.
It's worth noting one of my conservation measures was operating the Power Pro at 12.5v vs the usual 14.5v. This lets the Micro-Tsunamis run cooler...and I can't recall a failure of any decoder except through my own stupidity.
When I had a problem, got an extimated repair time, was back well before their estemae.
Goodluck,
Richard
rrinker I wanted one master switch, but witht he number of outlets, it ended up being 3 switches because of a limitation on the number of switched outlets code allows per wall switch. One of these days I might even remember which switch is which set.
I wanted one master switch, but witht he number of outlets, it ended up being 3 switches because of a limitation on the number of switched outlets code allows per wall switch. One of these days I might even remember which switch is which set.
Amen to that.
Alton Junction
My computer stays on allt he time - unless I go away, then I shut it dow. But I'm ALWAYS here near it, excpet when I'm sleeping. Around the layout, there are just too many things of dubuious quality (unless you power everything with the VERY expesince high quality wall warts you can find - taking apart a dead one of the typical ones that come with consumer products can be quite scary). Not to mention power tools, battery chargers where you HOPE the battery protection circuitry cuts off the charge before the battery blows up, and hot things like soldering irons when in the construction phase. I turn it ALL off when I leave the room more for safety than anythign having to do with protecting the equipment. Even if I had a senior moment and forgot to unplug or turn off the soldering iron, it won't be sitting there heating away for hours or even days before I get back to the basement. The outlet power switches are right next to the overhead light power switches, and they all have pilot lights, so it's very obvious when somethign is on or not. I wanted one master switch, but witht he number of outlets, it ended up being 3 switches because of a limitation on the number of switched outlets code allows per wall switch. One of these days I might even remember which switch is which set.
BTW, the blown up chip is simply the RS232 interface, so if the system won't power up, the damage is probably more severe than just the obviously blown chip.