H again,
I have an Athearn GP35 RTR (2008) that I have added new Eco PNP decoder, speaker, lights and copper wires soldered to the trucks against the wheels for additional pick-up.. It tested well for a few short runs, but was noisy. I removed the shell and replaced two wheels that were not free rolling, But now I cannot get the loco to run at all The decoder "blue" light comes on with power and I have clean track and wheels, plus my throtle works fine on other locos, so no issue there. This unit motor has only been run about 1 hour max and is like new. . I have looked closely at the frame with the shell off, but can't for the life of me find out why it now won't run. Photos attached so maybe you can see what I may be doing wrong. Any thoughts?? Thanks.
JRP
thumbnail89xx by John Parrish, on Flickr
thumbnail999x by John Parrish, on Flickr
I didn't see if you mentioned the bottom motor contact strip (brush holder). Isn't there usually a finger that contacts the frame there? You clipped it and securely insulated it?
Perhaps there's some help here?
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/272018.aspx
Good Luck, Ed
Can you spin the motor freely? If you apply dc power to the motor, does it spin?
Try wiring a speaker to the decoder, see the decoder is recieving power with no shorts.
Is the motor isolated from the frame?
Charles
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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Can you put the engine on the programming track and read back the CVs? This will tell you if the decoder is connected correctly and if the motor is getting power from the track. Back on normal track, do the headlights work? How about the horn?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
That's what I call timing! Just as I clicked to make a post, the thread was moved.
So, anyway, what's with the gray wire that appears to run from the board to the frame?
Mike.
My You Tube
JRPIt tested well for a few short runs, but was noisy. I removed the shell and replaced two wheels that were not free rolling,
When you work on your motorcycle and it doesn't run anymore, it's almost always the last thing you did.
Wheels have gears and generally aren't "free rolling" but they should turn with the flywheel. Did you find broken gears?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Hello All,
The OP seems to still be using the frame as a conductor. This is apparent by the two black wires from the frame to the decoder (seen in the second photo).
Using the frame as a conductor only one wire would be needed to connect the decoder to the frame.
All the wheels on the same side are electrically "connected" and energize the entire frame.
The only reason for two (2) solder pads on the decoder is, if each truck is isolated from the frame, for "all-wheel" pickup a conductor (wire) from each set of wheels is necessary.
If you meter the traces on the decoder I would not be surprised to find that the solder pads for the wheel pickup circuits are parallel.
A simple way to check this is to unsolder one side of the decoder from the wheel pickups. Set your meter to the "continuity" [➝+ )))))] or "beeper" function.
Put one probe to one solder pad on the decoder, touch the other probe to the other, corresponding, solder pad and you should get a continuity signal.
gmpullmanI didn't see if you mentioned the bottom motor contact strip (brush holder). Isn't there usually a finger that contacts the frame there? You clipped it and securely insulated it?
If you did not isolate the motor from the frame AND you ran feeders from the frame to the decoder that means you have created a circuit where the DCC track voltage simultaneously energizes the motor; through the frame, and the decoder; through the wheel pickup wires (Red & Black).
Then the decoder sends voltage via the orange and gray wires back to the motor. Which typically results in a fried decoder.
mbinsewiSo, anyway, what's with the gray wire that appears to run from the board to the frame?
That seems to be just a "trick of the light". I believe it's the Gray (lower) motor wire.
On all my DC to DCC Blue Box conversions I not only pressed the prongs in on the conductive strip that holds the motor brush and spring on the bottom of the motor.
I also relocate that clip to the top of the motor so the clip on the bottom of the motor has no protrusions.
Just to further insulate the frame from the motor I use Liquid Electrical Tape and paint the inside of the frame below the motor. I also paint the bottom clip with this material too.
And finally, I put strips of Kapton tape on the bottom of the motor between the motor mounts to thoroughly insulate the motor from the frame.
Sorry for your loss.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I believe that's the motor – wire to the bronze strip/brush retainer that sits in the fuel tank.
Usually this strip has a "finger" to contact the frame. Some installers use vinyl electrical tape to isolate the motor here. I don't think that's strong enough and may cut through.
jjdamnitI also relocate that clip to the top of the motor so the clip on the bottom of the motor has no protrusions.
Excellent idea!
If the blue LED is lit on the board the rail pick-up should be OK.
If all else fails, a decoder reset, just to be sure?
He's gonna be pretty disappointed when he tries to put the shell on over that screw he installed in the chassis on the right.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
jjdamnitThat seems to be just a "trick of the light". I believe it's the Gray (lower) motor wire.
No, the motor wires connect to the two tabs on the side of the decoder. Those you can see.
I think his pictures were taken down on Flickr. You can't see the larger versions any more.
....
Guys, pardon me. I forgot that I had sent in a request 2 years ago about the same thing. Give me a break, I'm old (LOL)...totally forgot. But I'm still stuck. Here is the brief facts:
Now I cannot get JMRI to read the decoder...I get a line that reads "error no acknowledgment from motor (308)". Any thoughts other than what you have already offered?.
We can't get access to your pictures on Flickr anymore. Ed posted them in his reply, but you should be able to click on them, and see them in your Flickr account, so they can be enlarged. That's not working.
Flickr says there's an error and can't find the page.
Here is the Athearn parts diagram, and here is the Soundtraxx installation guide.
My first question was, what's the gray wire coming from the decoder to the frame for? Now I see it's just a duplicate of the black wire. That should be OK.
On Athearns, even the RTR's, the frame is the (-) electrical side, so that pin on the bottom of the frame, where it sits on the trucks, needs to be extra clean.
I'm not familiar with Soundtraxx decoder, so I don't know anything about the blue light.
The orange decoder wire goes to the top motor clip, and the gray decoder wire goes to the bottom motor clip, the red wire goes to the engineers side, which the taller of the pick-up bars on the trucks, and the black wire goes to (on Athearns) the frame.
Try turning the flywheel by hand, and make sure sure everything turns.
Make sure the (-) side (black wire) connection between the frame and the trucks is clean, along with the wheels, and your programming track is clean. I discovered that dirty programming track makes a huge difference.
Regardless of lights or sound, that should get it running.
I'll leave any technical stuff to the electric and decoder gurus in here.
Just make sure ALL connections are good.
Thanks for the updates.
JRP•Decoder blue light still works, and I get sound and lights, but no movement.
I'm not familiar with this "blue light" you refer to. Is this light on the decoder or through the DCC controller?
JRPI removed the shell and replaced two wheels that were not free rolling...
If the wheels are "free rolling" on a locomotive that suggests that the gears are not engaged and possibly cracked. If all the wheels are now "free rolling" that means that power will not be transferred from the motor, through the gear towers to the wheels.
JRPNow I cannot get JMRI to read the decoder...I get a line that reads "error no acknowledgment from motor (308)".
This error might be because there is no continuity from the wheels to the decoder; red or black wires.
If you installed the trucks on the wrong ends of the frame the wheel pickups to the frame will be the same polarity as the pickups on the top of the gear towers.
This might not fry the decoder but electrons won't flow.
My suggestion would be to completely isolate the trucks, motor and decoder from the frame.
You can modify the pickups on the trucks by cutting off the tabs on the top of the gear tower. Solder the appropriate colored wire- -red/black to the wheel pickups.
Doing this will bypass the frame being an electrical conductor. Getting rid of any wires from the frame to the decoder.
Another advantage of wiring the trucks independently is trouble-shooting becomes easier if you can trace your work.
Hope this helps!
Do you have a spare 12V motor around? Simply wire it to the decoder to act as a test bed.
While the temporary test motor is wired up, get a 9V battery or other 6 ~ 12 VDC power supply and test the Athearn motor. I've had some go bad, shorting the commutator.
ATH_DC-motor1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Don't ever apply voltage to a loco motor while still wired to the decoder.
Many, if not all Soundtraxx decoders have a power indicator blue LED. I often forget to cover it before putting the shell on and I have blue light glowing through the radiator fans
Short of that, contact Soundtraxx and see if they will test or replace the decoder. They are usually pretty good with customer service.
https://soundtraxx.com/support/troubleshooting/
Diagnostic Lamps:
There is one blue and one red LED mounted on the circuit board that act as diagnostic indicators and that may help you identify and resolve problems. Pilot Light The blue pilot light indicates that the decoder is receiving power. If this light is not illuminated, it may indicate an improperly wired decoder. It could also indicate a loose wire, poor track pickups, no output from the command station, or another wiring problem on your layout.
Fault Light:
When the decoder encounters a fault, the red fault light and all installed lighting will flash an allotted number of times to report an error code. The number of times the light flashes corresponds to a specific error. Note: The fault light is connected in series with the decoder’s FX6 output (F27 by default) and will illuminate in a steady “on” state when that function is on. This is not an error code but can be used to check for proper operation of the fault light on a decoder.
Soundtraxx decoders have blue led's to indicate they are getting power, red led's to indicate there is an internal fault. If he's got the blue light, power is getting from the rails to the decoder. Plus he has sound.
Except for a wire that might have obstructed replacement of the shell, nothing jumped out at anyone as being wrong. It sounds like he has properly isolated the frame.
I agree the OP's use of the word free rolling is confusing.
I don't know, can he do a decoder reset CV8=8, and cycle the power, if he cannot read the decoder with JMRI?
NOTE: Pictures are back up on Flicker. When I referred to "free rolling wheels", I meant only when they were removed from the worm housing cap and worm gear. Once back installed, they would not roll.
JRPNOTE: Pictures are back up on Flicker. When I referred to "free rolling wheels", I meant only when they were removed from the worm housing cap and worm gear. Once back installed, they would not roll.
The right arrow, bottom right of flickr, is what you use to get the pic in the forum. Use the BB code link, I trimmed a some of the link so your name is not visible. Copy and paste it as text, not a photo.
Because of the gearing, the wheels won't turn the flywheel, but the flywheel should turn the wheels, but very slowly. Disconnected from the worm, the wheels should turn and the gears in the trucks should turn easily. A broken gear or solidified grease are reasons why they might not turn.
That doesn't shed any light on your current problem.
Before you again put the project in hibernation, consider removing that board, test the engine in DC mode, make sure the motor is isolated from the frame, and hard wire a new decoder.
Simon
When you soldered the wires on the motor clips, you didn't accidently lose a brush spring, did you?
Definitely time to take it apart and test the motor - ONLY AFTER DISCONNECTING THE DECODER because if it isn't fried, even touching a battery to the motor terminals witht he decoder connected to the motor but otherwise removed from the loco will fry it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
snjroyBefore you again put the project in hibernation...make sure the motor is isolated from the frame, and hard wire a new decoder.
My thoughts exactly...
jjdamnitMy suggestion would be to completely isolate the trucks, motor and decoder from the frame.
It is more labor-intensive, but in the long run, it is well worth the effort of isolating these components.
Keep the questions coming!
All,
After installing a new motor and checking everything again, it was still not running. So, I replaced the (new) ECO-PNP decoder with another.....that did the trick. I am back up running smooth (and no grinding noise with the shell back on). i guess I just figured that a new decoder was bullit proof especially since I would get sound, the blue LED light would come on and my throttle did not indicate a short. In any event, I will test the first decoder tomorrow and if I can't get it to function, will send back to Soundtraxx. It's only a month old. Thanks to everyone for suggestions, thoughts, advice, etc. Stay safe everyone.
That sounds like you've pulled a lead loose from the board, concealed under the shrinkwrap. If it's a decoder old enough to be out of warranty (you say you've been working on it for at least two years) -- you may want to check with Soundtraxx to confirm there's nothing to lose -- then peel back the shrink far enough to check that all the leads are still soldered to the decoder PCB. The codes seem to point in the direction of either the orange or gray wires having a failed connection.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanThat sounds like you've pulled a lead loose from the board, concealed under the shrinkwrap.
In the photo it looks like it is an AT-type board, Mike. The solder connections to the pads seem to look OK.
mlehman(you say you've been working on it for at least two years)
The OP had a similar thread about a non-running loco two years ago. He says the decoders are new.
Regards, Ed