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NCE p114 power supply schematic?

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NCE p114 power supply schematic?
Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Saturday, February 02, 2019 1:56 PM

My entire dcc system is currently running on a power pack set to the correct voltage. But it can barely handle anything above one sound locomotive, and I don't want it as a permanant solution either. I want to try and fix the power supply that goes with the system, instead of buying a $30 new replacement. Is there a schematic out there for this? Or is it a company secret.

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Posted by richg1998 on Saturday, February 02, 2019 2:13 PM

My Power Cab can handle three HO sound locos. You might have another issue. The Power Cab does have a current limit. You cannot exceed it. The hand unit has the limit. I believe, two amps.

The power supply is nothing fancy. Just the proper voltage and current it can supply. Probably has a voltage regulator. Easy enough to build if you are familiar with power supply electronics. I have built a few over the years but cheap enough to buy.

Edit. I found my Power Cab and I saw it is a switcher by the weight and what Randy said.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, February 02, 2019 4:15 PM

BNSF UP and others modeler
My entire dcc system is currently running on a power pack set to the correct voltage. But it can barely handle anything above one sound locomotive, and I don't want it as a permanant solution either.

I read this as: 

  • The P114 NCE power supply is dead
  • The OP is using some other power supply

The newest P114 is 13.8V and 2A made by Semag, (over there).  Mine is a few years old and 13.8V and 1.8A made by W&T (same neighborhood)

I did not see an exact replacement on Ebay, but there are lots that are 13.5V and 1 amp.   Maybe the OP's replacement is of the 1 amp variety.

I saw one ''replacement for" the NCE but it did not specify amps.

There are also 5A power supplies. I do not know if that poses a risk for the power cab or not.  I don't think the NCE power supply is meant to come apart.

 

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

By the Chesapeake Bay

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Posted by mbinsewi on Saturday, February 02, 2019 5:28 PM

I read that he's looking for a schematic for the NCF p114.  I search around a little, and when I seen it was a wal wort, I was wondering what he wanted a schematic for.

I read that the OP is saying it will barely run one sound loco.

If that's the case, Rich's answer seemed right, as maybe something else is wrong.

BUT, I know nothing about NCE, so I'll just watch Smile, Wink & Grin

Mike.

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, February 02, 2019 6:31 PM

 I doubt it's another problem, it's just a power supply that is too weak.

A schematic? Well, it's actually NOT that simple, that power supply is a switching power supply, so it's actually fairly complicated. Look for one of those universal type wall warts, there a bunches that have selectable voltages, as long as 13.8V is one of them, and they come with multiple tips so you cna put the cirrect one on and just plug it in. But make sure it's 13.8V at 2 amps. It's not very common though, so it may be difficult finding one that doesn;t cost the same as the actual NCE one.

                                     --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Saturday, February 02, 2019 10:06 PM

The NCE power supply is not working. See earlier threads. I am currently using a DC powerpack for the layout. THAT is what cant handle more than 1 sound loco.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Saturday, February 02, 2019 10:16 PM

AHH, OK, so Henry was right, your NCE p114 is not working. 

That's clears that up!

Carry on,

Mike.

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Posted by richg1998 on Monday, February 04, 2019 2:37 PM

I do remember now thinking of making a back up power supply some years ago when I bought my Power Cab as I had extra electronics hanging around at the time.

I had an unused three amp 24 DC pack and could make a two amp LM317 regulator easily and trim it to 13.9 vdc. Life got in the way and never did it. The Cab always worked anyway.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by garya on Monday, February 04, 2019 5:06 PM

BNSF UP and others modeler

My entire dcc system is currently running on a power pack set to the correct voltage. But it can barely handle anything above one sound locomotive, and I don't want it as a permanant solution either. I want to try and fix the power supply that goes with the system, instead of buying a $30 new replacement. Is there a schematic out there for this? Or is it a company secret.

 

If you have an old laptop computer brick, you could use one of these and set it to 13.8 v.  If you want 2A, try this (comes with a spare), though you'll need a meter to set it to the correct voltage).

Gary
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Posted by rrinker on Monday, February 04, 2019 5:24 PM

 The thing about the PowerCab is you MUST limit the input power to 2 amps. Otherwise, the PowerCab can fry itself by trying to pass whatever amount of current the power supply you are using can supply. There's a cautionary note buried somewhere in the mess that is the NCE web site that mentions the absolute maximum you can use.

 You certainly can use a higher current power supply, IF you include a fuse or circuit breaker that will trip at the PowerCab maximum - current isn't 'pushed' into a circuit, it is drawn from a source. So you could happily use a 13.8V 100 amp power supply if you put a 2 amp fuse between it and the PowerCab.

                                --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by richg1998 on Monday, February 04, 2019 5:39 PM

A LM317 regulator can easily be trimmed with a pot. I have done it many times. Some times I would solder in a fixed resistor of near standard value. Online calculators. You can find LM317 regulator circuits online also. Not difficult. I would fuse with a two amp fuse or maybe circuit breaker.

There is a module sold on ebay with a meter for a few dollars that does the regulating with a trim pot. Quite a nifty device. Comes from China. I have seen it in other forums. I think the MRH forum.

On Ebay they are called DC to DC buck boost power supply. Some with a meter.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Monday, February 04, 2019 6:28 PM

I was hoping to fix my existing faulty power supply. Otherwise, I would just go and get the name brand replacement.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, February 04, 2019 7:37 PM

 Those wall warts generally don't come apart (well, you cna open it up, putting it back together again is a different story). Best bet is to just get the exact replacement and not worry about anything.

                                  --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Tuesday, February 05, 2019 12:36 PM

Well, I have already succeeded in opening it. Thats why I want a schematic. To see if I can figure out what went amiss in the components.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, February 05, 2019 12:53 PM

I suppose you've tried to contact NCE? 

Mike.

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Posted by garya on Tuesday, February 05, 2019 3:33 PM

BNSF UP and others modeler

Well, I have already succeeded in opening it. Thats why I want a schematic. To see if I can figure out what went amiss in the components.

 

Really?  One of these?  

My guess is it's a switching power supply of some sort, probably with a buck regulator.  You could take a picture of what's inside...

Gary
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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, February 05, 2019 4:34 PM

 If you get no output at all, chances are it was shorted and there is a fusible link that has fried.

                                       --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Tuesday, February 05, 2019 6:37 PM

Yes garya, the very same. It actually was't too hard. I will try to see if I can get a pic posted soon. That might help even more than a schematic.

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Posted by woodone on Tuesday, February 05, 2019 7:32 PM

Call me ?? but why risk the throttle to save a few penny’s?

go out and get the proper replacement! If you want to tinker with it an try to finger out how it works- fine but I would not risk my PC throttle NO WAY- 

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Friday, February 08, 2019 4:37 PM

Here are the promised pictures of the inside:

 

 

 

 

The 2 red wires go into the plug, the black ones go into the jack that plugs into the PCP. The shiny stuff in the black wires where they are soldered to the board is just hot glue that I applied. Question is, what component(s) could be causing the problem?

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, February 08, 2019 4:53 PM

 Hmm, nothing appears burned or obviously damaged that I can see. No bulged caps. I do see some bare wire ont he black leads where you have the hot glue - are the black wires actually soldered to the board where they are supposed to be? 

 Seems decently designed, big gap between the input and output side on the PCB which is good, considering how small it is.

                                                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Friday, February 08, 2019 5:12 PM

rrinker
I do see some bare wire ont he black leads where you have the hot glue -

That's what I noticed too.  Presumably you added the hot glue as an insulator?  That much exposed wire doesn't look "factory"

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

By the Chesapeake Bay

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Friday, February 08, 2019 6:09 PM

Yah. I just put it in after re soldering the leads to the board to insulate and keep things in place. Oh well, if nothing else, at least these picures might prove helpful for others who are having trouble and are not willing to immediately take their power supply apart.

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Posted by garya on Friday, February 08, 2019 6:25 PM

BNSF UP and others modeler

Yah. I just put it in after re soldering the leads to the board to insulate and keep things in place. Oh well, if nothing else, at least these picures might prove helpful for others who are having trouble and are not willing to immediately take their power supply apart.

 

I can't see anything that looks bad.  I agree with Randy--it almost looks as if the bottom black wire isn't actually attached to the board.

Do you have a VOM (volt-ohm-meter)?  I would ohm between the board and the black wire and see if there's continuity, and maybe the plug and that wire.

Gary
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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Friday, February 08, 2019 7:18 PM

The problem happened way before I started tinkering with it. It has nothing to do with it. I'll see if I can dig up a voltmeter and tinker around...

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, February 08, 2019 7:54 PM

 Me personally, I would possibly power it on and take measurements at certain points to see if it's actually working. If you are not familiar with high voltage then please don;t try it.  Even if you are - be careful, it only takes s small slip of a probe to short something out and REALLY let out the magic smoke. In the words of Paul Carlsson, Mr. Carlsoon's Lab on YouTube "If you follow along, you are doing so at your own risk"  The circuit appears to be a common switch mode power supply circuit, so it shouldn't be too difficult to trace out some common voltage points. Just ve very careful of the high voltage side. And remember that big capoacitor can store a really nasty jolt long after the input powr is disconnected. If you only have a HF level meter - don;t even try it. Those meters are not rated to handle the voltages you will see in there and have little to no protection 

 Assuming the low voltage output wires are not simply shorted, either from the long striping or from solder bridging - which if it was dead before you did that, then that isn;t the cause of the problem, figuring out just what compnent is bad without any visible damage is not going to be easy. I'd just as soon get a new one.

 One thing you can do, it use maginifcation and look at both sides VERY closely, look for any cracked trace, or a broken solder joint on any of the components, or burn marks. If the power supply was dropped before it stopped working, it's possible a solder joint or even a component itself cracked, under magnification you might be able to see this. Try that first, before trying to power it up. 

 I pretty much know what I'm doing, and I've had some nasty jolts. Not through any real carlesness, but rather accidental slips. It's not fun, and in the worst one, it's a very good thing it was my RIGHT hand and not my left, which kept the current from flowing through my heart. Just be careful and if you have the slightest doubts about what you are doing, just don't do it, it's not worth it for a cheap power supply.

                                     --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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