Atlas was kind to help me with the electrical short I'm encountering when connecting two Atlas Mark IV #8 turnouts together. They gave me detailed instructions about using a snap relay. Is that necessary for DCC? The Mark IV have non-powered frogs (it says that on the back of their package). How to wire the frogs so they get power? I found that to avoid a short, these turnouts need to get connected together with plastic joiners (yes, I checked with a multi-meter). The issue is there is then no power running through.
All the other layouts are fine since they connect to sidings.
Thanks,
Lee
Unless they vastly changed something, there is no need to use plastic joiners with an Atlas Cutsom Line turnout. The rails pass straight through and are unconnected. Like I said - lay 2 pieces of straight track on top of one another, one at an angle to the other, this is an Atlas turnout, the right side rail is the right side rail on all 3 legs, the left side rail is the left side rail on all 3 legs, and never do they touch. The frog is completely isoolated from any rails.
You do not NEED to power them, but as the frog gets longer, the dead zone gets longer and it i more likely that locos will stall when the wheels are on the frog area and it is not powered.
If you get shorts without plastic joiners - you probably have a reverse loop.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I thought we solved this on one of your last threads.
The frog rails, the 2 rails on the normal and diverging route that are next to the frog (red and blue), but separated by a tiny piece of plastic from the frog, should never be the same polarity as each other, out of the box. Nor should there be any continuity with the frog.
I can't say for certain that there never would be a manufacturing defect that would create continuity, but I think it's a highly unlikely failure mode. But what you are saying is you have this: ignore that the frog is hot.
For purposes of this discussion, you can ignore all the jumpers and "options"
I never used snap switches, so someone will come forward and tell me if I'm wrong, but they are just DPDT switches, meaning they can change the frog from red to blue and back again. Unless they are linked to some lights on a control panel, you are going to have to remember (every time) to throw them before the loco hits the frog or you will have a short.
It might be time for us to have a look at your track plan where this problem occurs.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I just checked my new, uninstalled code 83 Atlas IV Customline turnout. The frog rails and not in continuity with each other or the frog.
This might help everyone! Photobucket is being a royally annoying, so it took forever to get the photos I sent to Atlas. Here they are:
http://s44.photobucket.com/user/leekass/library/?sort=3&page=1
Iwould apprecite some seasoned thoughts on the short. The red thumb tac are the locations of the short on the turnout. It might be easier to look at the pictures in a larger size by clicking them.
Thanks
What makes you think there is a short at that location? The first two photos showing a 0 volt reading? You have both probes touching pieces of the frog that are all one chunk of metal, so there will always be 0 volts there. If you switch to Ohms/Continuity, it should beep with the probes there. The real test would be to touch the frog with one probe, and one of the other rails with the other probe - there should be no continuity and no voltage even with the power turned on.
Makes sense. Regardless of where the probes function, the train won't move through two turnouts connected together. How to have power carried through the turnouts connected together so a train can go from one turnout to the other in DCC?
As I wrote, the Atlas rep's suggestion--using a snap relay switch--didn't make sense for DC.
Thanks!
I really hope those blue and yellow feeder wires aren't permanent !
I don't know what you track layout is like beyond both ends of the two switches, but you say you get a short when you connect the two switches together .... sure you don't have a pair of feeders reversed on one side and when you insert the two switches it causes a short ?
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark R.I don't know what you track layout is like beyond both ends of the two switches, but you say you get a short when you connect the two switches together
Or do the turnouts complete a reverse loop? Such as a crossover in the middle of a dog-bone?
Can you give us a sketch of the track plan and show where these turnouts are in relation to that?
I waited over a minute for the Photobucket photo to load then gave up. Reaffirms why I left Photobucket.
Good Luck, Ed
Ed. et al: Let me get you a sketch of the layout beyond the track. If many are having trouble with photobucket, what to use instead?
The turnouts don't form a reverse loop, dog bone or anything that lavish. No question seeing the schematic might help. The challenge is figuring out how to get it out to everyone with photobucket being problematic.
I might just space out the turnouts so there's some track between them. Thoughts?
~Lee
kasskabooseI might just space out the turnouts so there's some track between them. Thoughts?
Space between shouldn't matter. A yard ladder or crossover has turnouts connected in close proximity.
I use Flickr. Some others here use Imgur with no problems.
https://imgur.com/
Not an endorsement, just an observation.
Regards, Ed
Taking pictures from different orientations is the best way to confuse me.
You would be better off using solid 22 ga wire for feeders. You have strands of wire on top the rails, and a wad of wire that will probably hit the flanges. I try to put most of my feeders on the outside of the rail to avoid that problem. You can also strip more of the wire, so you don't have to deal with brightly colored wires above the ties.
That's a long frog, I could see a loco stalling out there, but there should be power after that on the stock and frog rail and then the stock and point rail of the next turnout.
All the advice from this forum was not to use insulated rail joiners and all the advice you have received from outside the forum is to use them. I can't see a feeder on the rail next to the red push pins. If you've installed insulated rail joiners and no feeder, that is a problem.
If the yellow feeder goes to the blue bus underneath the layout, that is a problem.
We have seen people simultaneosly attach DC and DCC to the layout, that's a problem.
Are you using all those Atlas selector switches, or were they just part of the diagram?
I don't remember what DCC system you are using, does your command station indicate a short? Are there circuit breakers installed?
Lets standardize on picture 2, with the 2 red pins.
I would start at the bottom and measure voltage from one rail to the other, directly opposite each other and continue on up the picture on the rails that a set of wheels would travel, with the turnout set for that route.
It should be zero at the level of the frog, because it is not powered. Where else does it go to 0 and where does the power return?
rrinker You do not NEED to power them, but as the frog gets longer, the dead zone gets longer and it i more likely that locos will stall when the wheels are on the frog area and it is not powered.
seems that these frogs are not insulated and to avoid dead zones need to be powered, possibly using a snap relay
is the frog connected to any of the diverging rails (thru external wiring)?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I use imgbb.com for hosting photos.
You can see from the photo of the turout that the frog is totally isolated.
An Atlas Mark IV turnout comes from the mfg with a totally isolated metal frog that is unpowered out of the box.
Yep, we need to see a track plan.
Rich
Alton Junction
kasskaboose Atlas was kind to help me with the electrical short I'm encountering when connecting two Atlas Mark IV #8 turnouts together. The Mark IV have non-powered frogs (it says that on the back of their package). How to wire the frogs so they get power? I found that to avoid a short, these turnouts need to get connected together with plastic joiners
Atlas was kind to help me with the electrical short I'm encountering when connecting two Atlas Mark IV #8 turnouts together.
The Mark IV have non-powered frogs (it says that on the back of their package). How to wire the frogs so they get power? I found that to avoid a short, these turnouts need to get connected together with plastic joiners
Trains stopping when crossing a pair of turnouts is probably just no power - with the size of the #8 frog, 2 in a row is probably about the right spacing for the front truck and trailing truck to each be on a (dead) frog at the same time - no power.
rrinker Trains stopping when crossing a pair of turnouts is probably just no power - with the size of the #8 frog, 2 in a row is probably about the right spacing for the front truck and trailing truck to each be on a (dead) frog at the same time - no power. --Randy
Probably a stall in this case.
rrinker Trains stopping when crossing a pair of turnouts is probably just no power - with the size of the #8 frog, 2 in a row is probably about the right spacing for the front truck and trailing truck to each be on a (dead) frog at the same time - no power.
Then I've sent Kass down the wrong rabbit hole, having read too much into his insistence that plastic joiners were needed.
"Won't run through the turnout" may mean exactly the scenario Randy describes, or it may mean what I thought: it doesn't run anywhere between the two red pins.
Kass does won't run mean it stalls and starts as wheels hit then clear the frogs?
Moving on to powering the frogs, how are you throwing the turnouts? Atlas switch machines?
I'm coming to this party a bit late, but I do have first hand knowledge of the Atlas 8s. I installed eight of them to complete 4 crossovers on my HO DCC layout. The "8s" are outstanding and I was thrilled when Atlas came out with them.
However, as the frog is not powered, slow moving locos would often stop on them. Some continued on, but the sound would go thru a "reboot".
The answer was the Atlas snap relay, and I wired one relay to each pair. That solved the problem, and as the installation was ten years ago they have stood the test of time.
One added "bonus" to this is that a train will come to a sudden stop if the turnout is sitting in the wrong direction. So this means that when the operator forgets to flip the turnout, he will end up with a stopped train, rather than a string of derailed locos and cars....
One more thing....all my previous HO layouts were DC. While DC locos tend to be less sensitive than DCC locos, some would still stop at the dead frog.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44The answer was the Atlas snap relay, and I wired one relay to each pair. That solved the problem,
Walk us through exactly what wire goes where, please....in DCC
I believe there are too many chef's in the kitchen.......
I also believe that the OP is calling an open, (no power) a short.
A track schematic is definitely needed, in this case.
Also if the turnouts are being used as a crossover and you want to power both frogs......two relays will be needed,(one can be used by using top and bottom of relay....just make sure you get the wiring correct) along with both rails insulated frog to frog, because the frogs will be a different polarity, DC or DCC when switched to use as a crossover. I have 8 crossovers made with #6 Atlas turnouts and they have performed flawlessly for over 25 yrs. wired as I described with Atlas under table switch machines and normally open push-buttons to control.
I hope You get it figured out.....outta here!!!!!!!
Frank
zstripe I believe there are too many chef's in the kitchen.......
Crossover keeps coming up but I'm not see anything but a crossing on his diagram.
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I think the Atlas component 2 cab thing is how his layout USED to be. Pretty sure he's using DCC now.
If it IS still wired like that for DC, then if the connection between the two turnouts is the division between two blocks, then it would need insulated joiners. For DCC, unless there are multiple power districts, no insulated joiners are needed.
Now that it was brought up, I'm kind of surprised trains make it over where those feeders are soldered on the inside, it looks like there is practically no flangeway at all with the wire there. If there are stray strands fom one feeder sticking up, it could touch the wheels of a loco going down the opposite route and cause a short. Or if the solder joint obstructs the flangeway enough, the wheel could just climb up and lose contact.
The photo with the two red pins (reinforced by the schematic) doesn't show a crossover. Just two turnouts connected in a row. Since I don't think that he has indicated where in the schematic this trouble spot is located, we're all guessing.
Maybe he just needs power fed at the points end of the second turnout in line? The insulated joiners and Snap Relay are canards, perhaps.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
The soldering skills, most definitely need a lot of improvement. I best be quiet......
#1 rule.....(for Me).power from the point side of Atlas turnouts/all turnouts... especially power routing turnouts. I used to use a lot of original Shinohara turnouts, which were power routing with live frogs......
Good Luck!
What I noticed in the common rail diagram, was the fact that at the Intermodel section and Engine house section there are two turnouts point to point.....they should be powered from the point side of the turnouts and if that turnout with the yellow & blue wires is where it is powered it will create a problem especially if the feeders are crossed.
zstripe#1 rule......power from the point side of Atlas turnouts/all turnouts........
The reason I like these type of threads is I always learn something.
Aside from the fact that the departing frog rail is excedingly short on the #8 for feeder attachment, if Atlas turnouts are not power routing, why the point side?
If we don't tell the OP his soldering is a potential problem, how's he going to know?
Thanks to everyone for the sound advice. Atlas called me back and told me that I do need the Atlas switch (as was shown earlier). Sorry if the soldering has caused some laughter by those more versed. Soldering is far easier than it looks and having not done it, there is a level of finese and technique.
I'll keep everyone informed. This is far easier to explain and resolve over the phone. Gotta love technology sometimes!
Much appreciate!