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BLI Brass Hybrid Stalling On Switches

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  • Member since
    April 2001
  • From: US
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BLI Brass Hybrid Stalling On Switches
Posted by blabride on Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:01 PM

Seasons Greetings Guys,

I have been having issues with my T&P 2 10 4 stalling on my switches. It runs well in every other place of the layout. I have Kato Unitrack no 6 switches wired with feeders at each conector end, to the bus so I am confused. Would a keep alive fix the issue or should I add more feeders somewhere to the switches? The only other steamer I have with this issue as my Genesis UP 4 8 4. I have read where the Paragon 3 already has a fairly large capacitor is this true?

I was hoping it came with an extra driver without the traction tires but it does not. If it needs a keep alive I would have no idea where to add it on the Paragon 3 board. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks

SB

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, December 23, 2017 1:51 PM

Put another engine in the same power district on your layout with the headlight on.  When you run the troublesome engine and it stalls, does the other engine's headlight stay on?  If the other headlight goes out at the same time as the stall, then you are probably getting a momentary short, which would likely need a different solution.

I'm not familiar with Unitrak.  Do the turnouts have live metal frogs, unpowered metal frogs or plastic frogs?  If you can power the frogs, do so.
Does this happen every time the engine crosses the turnout?  Slow or fast?  Both directions?  Curved path only, straight path only, or both?  Forward or reverse?  All of this is good information.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

  • Member since
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  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
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Posted by selector on Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:52 PM

With a steam locomotive of that size, especially BLI, track power pickup should present no problems.  It should have multiple axles under the locomotive and tender to pick up power if the tracks are live along the approach to a turnout, through the points and closure rails, across even long dead frogs (#10, #12,...), and beyond.  

Are we having this problem when the turnout is approached from the points end?  If the locomotive works on regular tracks, but only stalls on the turnout, then the turnout is the problem, or the points-end joiners and connectivity, not the locomotive.  We could demonstrate this with certainty by using an Atlas or Peco turnout in the same geometry if the BLI steamer moves through the turnout without stalling.

The important thing here is to watch all the lead axles, including the engine truck's single axle up front, to see if a metal tire is causing the short hinted at in the previous response.  Sometimes a tire can bridge the diverging frog rails and cause a momentary short.  You might try putting a single coat of clear nail varnish on one of the two frog rails where they split at that black plastic spacer (assuming its not a charged frog..?), letting the varnish dry well, and trying again.  If the steamer moves across the frog properly, you have found your problem. 

Note that this also happens with any one of the driver axles.  Usually, it's that flangless middle driver provided so that that one set of tires can drift inward on a diverging route...it's a long driver base on a 2-10-4.  In fact, my early Paragon T1 Duplex has a 'blind' set of drivers on the middle two axles, and they drift well inward on curved turnouts. I had to paint or cut the rails near the frogs of all my Walthers/Shinohara #7.5 turnouts years ago just for this one steamer.

A good first step would be to meter all the way along the rails, right from the joiner and along to the frog and beyond.  Use very light pressure at first, then repeat the process using some pressure to represent the weight of the steamer.

  • Member since
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  • From: Collinwood, Ohio, USA
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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:18 PM

blabride
I have read where the Paragon 3 already has a fairly large capacitor is this true?

Often, the included capacitor is there to keep the sound amplifier from dropping out but will not help with the motor.

This might be a stab in the dark but you might try taking a blunt-ended wood skewer and making sure the engine/tender harness plug is engaged all the way.

I'm pretty sure BLI assigns rail pick-up to the outer two wires and if the plug isn't in all the way you might not be passing the engine's wheel pickup through to the decoder.

Just a chance...

Good Luck, Ed

  • Member since
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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:46 PM

 Is the plug between the tender and loco fully plugged in?

A loco that long should never stall - the pickup wheelbase is longer than even a #10 frog. If other locos work fine over the same track, there is a problem with the pickups on this one. As in, something isn't connected. On one of my PCM T1's, one of the connectors was not properly inserted into the shell of the connector that plugged in to the circuit board in the tender. As a result, when this conenctor was plugged in during assembly, that particular pin just pushed out the back of the connector instead of making contact with the terminal on the board. The end result was that oen side of the tender pickup wasn't being fed into the decoder, so on one side the loco only picked up power by the loco wheels. On the other side, it properly picked up power via both the loco and the tender. Simply fixing this connector restored full pickup to the loco. 

 This is easy to test - assuming other locos work fine on this track section and it isn;t an issue with the track or track wiring. Put a piece of paper under the left side tender wheels - both trucks, but not the right. See if the loco works. Repeat with right side tender wheels. ANd then left side loco wheels, and right side loco wheels. If it works with say the right side tender wheels insulated but not if the right side loco wheels insulated, then the loco is not getting power from the right side of the tender. Or whichever respected group of wheels works or not works.

                                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:54 PM

Unitrack turnouts have a number of choices as to powered or unpowered frogs and as to power routing or feed thru. They have jumper screws on the bottom that allow these different options.

I suspect however the problem is more mechanical than electrical.

These big locos may well be getting "stuck", or shoring out, because the turnout is too sharp.

The kato #6 is 10 degrees, not 9-1/2 degrees and is pretty "short", so it is a little compressed compared to an Atlas, Walthers, PECO 83 or other North American standard #6 turnouts.

Respectfully, a number #6, especially a "toy train track system" #6, is a little tight for locos that size......

Just my opinion.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
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  • From: US
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Posted by blabride on Monday, December 25, 2017 7:57 PM

I had a chance to try some things this evening and it is not the turnouts. The loco ran all the way around the layout backwards without any stuttering or drop outs. I made sure the plug was seated completely which it was. I did find that one tender wheel pickup was not making contact with the axle. So it must be a pickup issue. I will take the trucks off the tender tomorrow and give the brass pickups a stronger bend to make sure they stay in contact with the axles.

SB

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Monday, December 25, 2017 11:24 PM

Be VERY careful not to reverse either axles or trucks as you will end up shorting your tender with the decoder.  Poooofff!!  Find a way to remember which truck goes which way, and if you end up removing an axle for any reason, mark either the left or right side to ensure it goes back properly oriented.

  • Member since
    April 2001
  • From: US
  • 416 posts
Posted by blabride on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 10:56 AM

Thanks for the heads up. I have made that mistake before. Luckily it was on a brass caboose I had painted and not a loco. BLI has fairly large black plastic insulation on that side of the tender wheels. Its the axles that have very thin impossible to see insulation that poses a problem, like most Hallmark Brass.

SB

  • Member since
    January 2021
  • 1 posts
Posted by JimTT on Sunday, January 10, 2021 1:02 PM

 

I have had the same issue with my BLI T1 stalling over Unitrack switches and the problem was the unflanged driver shorting against the diverging rail behind the points. An application of nail polish on the diverging rail solved the problem. 

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