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Wooways me. Short - Do I rewire?

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Wooways me. Short - Do I rewire?
Posted by gdelmoro on Monday, October 30, 2017 10:59 AM

So today I decided to connect the track in the middle of the diagram (the one that comes off the main down to the ferry’s yard and reverse loop 1. Now I have a short.

Where the ferry yard cobnnects to the switch (bottom center of diagram) the connections to the separate buses are switched thereby linking a RED  feeder to a Black.

So if I GAP the ferry yard making it a separate section I guess I need to extend the Auto Reverser powered track through the switch. Remove the gap (bottom Center) and ADD 2 gaps. One between the switch and the mainline and one between the switch and the Ferry yard.

OR should I rewire the ferry yard so it matches the mainline?

Gary

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, October 30, 2017 11:10 AM

Reverse the green section, it need to be the same polarity as the approach track from the right.
 
Mel
 
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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, October 30, 2017 11:19 AM

I see the fix this way:

That "reverse loop 1" section reverts back to the black mainline.

The NEW "reverse loop 1" is that short section from just above the ferry yard and back to the main line--the section that goes under the double track.

And the green section polarity will then match the main line polarity.

 

Ed

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Posted by gdelmoro on Monday, October 30, 2017 12:23 PM

RR_Mel

Reverse the green section, it need to be the same polarity as the approach track from the right.
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 

Thanks Mel I was afraid of that. 

The other option to change reverse loop is not an option because it is too short. 

Gary

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Posted by BigDaddy on Monday, October 30, 2017 12:49 PM

I would create a gap closer to the main line.  Power both the Ferry Yard and the middle track (you just connected) from the AR so it's all part of the reversing loop.  

The old gap does not need to be removed but you do have to have feeders beyond the gap to the AR

 
 

Henry

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, October 30, 2017 1:13 PM

gdelmoro

 

Thanks Mel I was afraid of that. 

The other option to change reverse loop is not an option because it is too short. 

 

Gary
 
Your green track is isolated, I don’t see a problem if you reverse the polarity to the green section.
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by wjstix on Monday, October 30, 2017 1:50 PM

"Wooways me"?? Is that some obscure Noo Joisey dialect's version of "Woe is me"??

Whistling

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, October 30, 2017 2:33 PM

gdelmoro

The other option to change reverse loop is not an option because it is too short. 

 

 

If you're talking about my suggestion, I surely don't agree.  Perhaps you can explain.  I don't see the problem.

 

Ed

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Posted by selector on Monday, October 30, 2017 3:17 PM

gdelmoro

So today I decided to connect the track in the middle of the diagram (the one that comes off the main down to the ferry’s yard and reverse loop 1. Now I have a short...

 

Then you have a short only on that side of the turnout nearest "NOT GAPED/SHORT".  If everything has been good to this point, and all you have done is to energize the green ink portion, you have it wired incorrectly, you have a track nail or piece of wire crossing two rails, maybe near a frog, or your three-way is defective and shorted under it.  If the wiring checks out, and your tracks have no stray braided wire filaments lying about, suspect the bridging metal wipers below the points rails...any one of them.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, October 30, 2017 3:41 PM

Your short is here.
  
Put a gap where your note says Not Gapped and you will clear the short or reverse the wires to the green track.
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, October 30, 2017 3:56 PM

Gary, I assume you meant crossing, not crossover, for that piece located at the top center of your track diagram.

Rich

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Posted by gdelmoro on Monday, October 30, 2017 4:42 PM

7j43k

I see the fix this way:

That "reverse loop 1" section reverts back to the black mainline.

The NEW "reverse loop 1" is that short section from just above the ferry yard and back to the main line--the section that goes under the double track.

And the green section polarity will then match the main line polarity.

 

Ed

 

Ed I was talking about your post but probably I don’t understand.  I thought you wanted me to make the short track between the upper mainline and the end that terminates at the turnout on the bottom of the diagram. That’s only about 4’ long so it would be shorter than a train.

So I cheated to see if retiring the ferry yard would work by simply switching the Red & Black wires coming from teh Control Station into the Yard Circuit Breaker and it all works fine.

I’m not sure what you mean by;

And the green section polarity will then match the main line polarity.”

Any way to [post a diagram? I share would like to avoid retiring the ferry yard.

Gary

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Posted by gdelmoro on Monday, October 30, 2017 4:44 PM

wjstix

"Wooways me"?? Is that some obscure Noo Joisey dialect's version of "Woe is me"??

Whistling

 

Yes that’s the NJ way of emphasizing the Woe  Geeked

Gary

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, October 30, 2017 6:26 PM

gdelmoro

 

 

Ed I was talking about your post but probably I don’t understand.  I thought you wanted me to make the short track between the upper mainline and the end that terminates at the turnout on the bottom of the diagram. That’s only about 4’ long so it would be shorter than a train.

That is what I want.

The whole train doesn't have to fit in the (electrical) reversing "loop".  Only the locomotives.

 

 

I’m not sure what you mean by;

And the green section polarity will then match the main line polarity.”

 

 

 
If you set up the reversing section as I said, you can follow the little red and black dots around and see that things now agree (see drawing).  Or did, before you changed the wires.
 
The green section could even be part of the main.  You would only have insulated joiners at each end of the reversing section.
 
 
Ed

 

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, October 30, 2017 9:47 PM

Gary, you have correctly identified the two reversing sections (Reverse Loop 1 and Reverse Loop 2). So, the only thing you need to do is to isolate each of those two reversing sections from the double mainline. 

You have already isolated Reverse Loop 1, so that is fine. To isolate Reverse Loop 2, add a pair of insulated gaps where Reverse Loop 2 connects to the outer mainline on the left side of the layout. You already show a "gap" marked there but it is not colored yellow (insulated). So, have you fully isolated Reverse Loop 2?

Once you completely isolate both reversing sections, just make certain that any feeders inside each reversing section connect to the output side of the respective auto-reverser. Be careful not to cross-wire one reversing section to the other reversing section.

On your track diagram, you show the Ferry Yard wired as red over black.  That is wrong. It should be wired black over red because it should be wired the same way as the double mainline since it lies outside of either reversing section.

Rich

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Posted by gdelmoro on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 3:45 PM

richhotrain

Gary, you have correctly identified the two reversing sections (Reverse Loop 1 and Reverse Loop 2). So, the only thing you need to do is to isolate each of those two reversing sections from the double mainline. 

You have already isolated Reverse Loop 1, so that is fine. To isolate Reverse Loop 2, add a pair of insulated gaps where Reverse Loop 2 connects to the outer mainline on the left side of the layout. You already show a "gap" marked there but it is not colored yellow (insulated). So, have you fully isolated Reverse Loop 2?

Once you completely isolate both reversing sections, just make certain that any feeders inside each reversing section connect to the output side of the respective auto-reverser. Be careful not to cross-wire one reversing section to the other reversing section.

On your track diagram, you show the Ferry Yard wired as red over black.  That is wrong. It should be wired black over red because it should be wired the same way as the double mainline since it lies outside of either reversing section.

Rich

 

 

Rich, RL2 already has gaps. I should have added the yellow. The problem I ran into occurred when I added the feeders to the middle track (wired same as mainline).  When I did that it connected the main to the ferry yard, which if you look at the diagram is opposite of the main.

So as you say I need to rewire the Ferry yard.  Just to make sure that was the only problem I reversed the wires from the controller to the EB1 Circuit Breaker and it all works fine.  

Now I need to plan a couple days to rewire the ferry yard.   Bummer

Gary

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 4:14 PM

Gary, I assumed that you had created insulated gaps and just forget to add the yellow to show it.

So, you have two working reversing sections that are wired and gapped and isolated correctly.

If that insulated gap is where you show it at the bottom center at the tail end of the turnout, then the Ferry Yard should be wired just like the mainlines. And Ferry Yard should be wired just like the track connecting the mainline to the turnout at the bottom center - - the turnout that connects to Reverse Loop 1.

Rich

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:52 PM

RR_Mel

Your short is here.
  
Put a gap where your note says Not Gapped and you will clear the short or reverse the wires to the green track.
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 

Pretty sure Mel nailed it.  Except that just a gap wont fix it.  You need to swap the wires or gap and auto reverse.  Locomotive bridging gap will cause short.

If you decide to just switch the wires coming into or out of your CB to fix the problem, document in writing what you did somewhere physically attached to the layout so that the incorrect colored feeders dont cause confusion later.

 

Edit: I think you said you fixed it, but the documentation part stands.

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:58 PM

The OP simply needs to flip the feeders that power Ferry Yard to match the polarity of that diagonal track coming down from the mainline. No need for additional gaps or a third A-R. He has already isolated the two reversing sections. The Ferry Yard is shorting out because the polarities don't match the connecting (diagonal) track.

Rich

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 8:13 PM

richhotrain
He has already isolated the two reversing sections. The Ferry Yard is shorting out because the polarities don't match the connecting (diagonal) track.

I agree with this. Some clarifying and amplifying information to my reply above.

There are 3 (possibly 6) ways to go about it (in order of best to least best way IMO):

1a.) Re-wiring the ferry area so that the proper feeders are on the proper rails for the situation (what Rich suggesting, I think).  This is probably the best choice from a not causing confusion later standpoint.  Could be a pretty big chore from a physical standpoint.

1b) Possibly could just connect the feeders to the opposite bus wire underneath the layout (electrically the same thing, but does not maintain your color coding).

2a) Install a Circuit breaker for the ferry area, and swap the out puts (which would make the color coding incorrect, but the wiring would work electrically).  This would require a double gap at the point indicated.

2b) Cut the bus wire going to the ferry section, re-attach said bus wire to the main bus, but swap the wires.

3)  Gap and install an auto reverser.  This would correct the short.  Kind of expensive way of going about it, and it would only sense a polarity mis-match once.

4) Power route the ferry area.   Possibly would require a turnout designed for power routing, and relying on the points to feed the whole area.  (least desirable option from reliability standpoint). 

I would go with 1a, 1b, or 2a.  

2b would be the quickest.  2a second quickest. 1b third.

If you do anything but 1a, document and attach it to the layout or wherever you might keep troubleshooting documents for your layout.  

If you go with 1a, while you are down there, put in a circuit breaker so that while you are switching, a second train running around the layout doesnt get stopped if you cause a short (happens to pretty much all of us).

All bets are off except 1a, 1b if I am mis-understanding how the OP wired his layout.

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 4:40 AM

I suppose that it all depends upon the size of the layout, the length of the various track segments (e.g., mainline, reversing section, yard, etc.), and the number of feeders in each track segment.

BMMECNYC, each of your options requires the OP to get under the layout except, possibly, for Option#4. But even under Option #4, the OP will have to install a power routing turnout if the existing turnout is non-power routing and disable the feeders that currently power Ferry Yard. So, in any event, the OP is going to have to get under the layout to do something with the feeders.

In my opinion, your Option #1a is the preferred option and the one that I am suggesting to the OP. Using Option #1a, no gapping is required where the OP has marked "not gaped/short", nor would there be any need for an additional auto-reverser or even a circuit breaker.

The best long term solution is to match the wiring in Ferry Yard to the mainlines and the diagonal track connecting Reverse Loop 1 to the mainline. Any train exiting Reverse Loop 1 at the bottom of the track diagram will match the polarity inside Reverse Loop 1 to the polarity of the wiring on the diagonal track segment that the train is entering.

Rich

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Posted by gdelmoro on Thursday, November 02, 2017 6:25 AM

See my previous post, I temporarially just switched the wires from the control station to the Circuit Breaker which solved the problem.

As pointed out it is not a final solution because it destroys the color code for the  ferry yard tracks so I will be re-wiring the ferry yard.

The entire layout is 10' x 15'.

Gary

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Posted by gdelmoro on Thursday, November 02, 2017 6:48 AM

What if I simply extend the reverse loop 1 past the turnout on the bottom and gap after the turnout on both tracks?

Gary

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 02, 2017 6:57 AM

gdelmoro

What if I simply extend the reverse loop 1 past the turnout on the bottom and gap after the turnout on both tracks? 

Sure, you could extend Reverse Loop 1 by moving the insulated gaps beyond the turnout up onto that diagonal track. That would make Ferry Yard part of Reverse Loop 1. But once you do that, you will need to move the Ferrt Yard feeders from the main bus to the output side of the auto-reverser that controls Reverse Loop 1. And, you would need to remove the current insulated gaps at the tail end of that turnout.

To do this right and permanent, you should simply flip the Ferry Yard feeders to match the polarity of the diagonal track and connecting mainline.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 02, 2017 6:58 AM

gdelmoro

The entire layout is 10' x 15'. 

What is the length of each of the two reversing sections?

How long is your longest train?

How many pairs of feeders power Ferry Yard?

Rich

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, November 02, 2017 7:57 AM

Is this Analysis Paralysis? 

If it's easier to leave the feeders attached to the Ferry yard rails, swap them below at the bus and get some cheap craft paint at Michaels or AC Moore and paint the red wire black and the black wire red.

 

Henry

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 02, 2017 8:37 AM

I don't think that analysis paralysis is at play here. The OP has already taken temporary steps to successfully resolve the issue. Now he is looking for a permanent solution that will involve the fewest man hours of labor, while still maintaining the standards that he has set for his wiring protocol.

Rich

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Posted by gdelmoro on Thursday, November 02, 2017 12:38 PM

richhotrain
 
gdelmoro

The entire layout is 10' x 15'. 

 

 

What is the length of each of the two reversing sections?

 

How long is your longest train?

How many pairs of feeders power Ferry Yard?

Rich

 

Thanks Rich

Currently the Ferry Yard is on a separate Circuit Breaker with a separate Bus just for the yard.

What I was asking was if I extended the reverse loop past the turnout and gapped BOTH the Mainline Track AND the Ferry Yard Track AFTER the turnout would that work without changing the feeders in the ferry yard.

Reverse Loop 1 is approximately 10' and Reverse Loop 2 about 12'.

Longest train is about 10'

THe Ferry Yard is powered by 5 sets of feeders.

Gary

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 02, 2017 1:57 PM

gdelmoro

Currently the Ferry Yard is on a separate Circuit Breaker with a separate Bus just for the yard.

What I was asking was if I extended the reverse loop past the turnout and gapped BOTH the Mainline Track AND the Ferry Yard Track AFTER the turnout would that work without changing the feeders in the ferry yard.

I don't know why you would want to do that. Where you have the gaps now, at the tail end of the turnout, makes the most sense because it keeps the yard outside of the reversing section.

If you eliminate those gaps and place new gaps on the other two ends of the turnout, you may be asking for problems because the turnout now becomes part of the reversing section whereas before that change, the turnout was outside of the reversing section.

But, let's say that you relocate those gaps anyhow. The Ferry Yard feeders must now match the polarity of the original reversing section because now it is part of the reversing section and, so, the feeders inside Ferry Yard must be connected to the output side of the EB1. 

It seems to me that you are reluctant to match the polarity of the yard feeders to the mainline. But, at this point, if all works well since you flipped the wires to the input side of the EB1, why mess with the wiring at all. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, November 02, 2017 3:52 PM

 If the ferry yard is on its own circuit breaker, just flip flop the leads feeding in to the circuit breaker and it will match polarity with the rest of the diagonal rack, problem solved. Don't move the loop gaps.

                                        --Randy


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