Many years ago I bought a Digitrax Empire Builder set. I had almost no understanding of what DCC was and still have a very limited knowledge. In the process of trying to install and program Tsunami decoders in a couple engines I discovered that it didn't read back any of the installed or added CVs to me. I had to shoot in the dark and take a lot of notes. Really sucked! Well, I never got very far on that layout and everything got packed away. NOW........I'm in the process of having a building constructed to house the layout and will need to get back up and running. I don't want to repeat that mess with the programming. What can I add or replace that will allow me to read back the CVs without replacing all the Digitrax set I bought.
If there isn't something simple I think I'd just as well replace the whole Digitrax with something else as I think Digitrax makes things about as difficult as they could be and wasn't too pleased with answers I received from them back then.
Thanks,
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Digitrax DCC systems have issues with Tsunami and some other decoders.
Some use a 1k resistor clipped across the programming track.
Some get a booster
You can blast mode on the main but with no other locos on the track.
I have seen many discussions about this issue in various forums.
You can do an Internet search and you find many links.
Ohters will jump in for sure.
You could switch to NCE systems.
I use the Power cab and club uses the five amp Power Pro and no issues for us programming.
Try the resistor or blast mode first before buying.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
He has the Super Empire Builder - this system used the DB150 command station/booster which does not have a program track or readback capability.
Two ways to upgrade this. If running 20 locos at a time is plenty, then you can just get a Zephyr Xtra. That will become the command station, and it has a seperate program track which can read CVs as well as write. Track power would still come from the DB150, but this would be comfigured to be just a booster by connecting a wire between the groung and config A terminals as shown in the instructions.
Or, if more capacity is needed, you can get one of the new Evolution starter sets which has the DCS 210 command station which also has the dedicated program track that can read and write CVs, plus you can still use the DB150 as a booster only to divide your layout into two seperate sections. Plus you get another throttle. The DCS210 is not sold seperately. That DCS240 is, but is pretty much overkill for all but the most monsterous home layouts and clubs. If you don;t really need the extra power, you can sell off the DB150 and get decent money for it because nothing Digitrax has made is ever truly obsolete or unusable with the newer equipment.
Alternatively, you could get a PR3 or the SPROG and program completely independently of the layout. This would be the cheapest way to go. However, either one needs to be connected to a computer and suitable software like JMRI used to do the programming.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have no idea what blast mode is. Assuming it's where I finally get mad enough at all this crap to blow the *%#@&*% thing up.
The layout will be 14x16 and probably only have 7 locomotives at any given time on the layout. At the suggestion several years ago from Tony's I added a programming track separate from the layout. It worked fine but doing the programming without any feedback of what numbers I had or changed made it a real pain.
As much as I think the Digitrax system and support stinks I really hate to change and go with something else. I don't like the throttle with the 2 train ability. I would prefer 2 different throttles. I only run one train at a time so it seems like overkill.
Unfortunately I'm in an area where there aren't any modelers and so I guess I'm going to Lone Wolf this layput too. I have a UT-4 and I like that a lot but it is limited.
"Blast Mode" only applies to the Zephyr and Zephyr Xtra systems, which is a way to apply full power to the program track (and the entire layout - so you have to take all other locos off the rails). Your system more or less already does this, so it should be no problem to program Tsunami decoders.
Frankly, despite having readback capability, I rarely read anything. The only locos that ever confuse me are the couple of undecorated ones I haven't gotten around to putting numbers on yet so if I haven't used them in a long time I don;t remember what I set the address to. Everything else, the address is the cab number. So no need to read the address. Setting volume - I always do that in Ops Mode while the train is running, and I can hear the results of each level. Again, no real need to read it back. Same with motor control. I don;t bother with 28 step speed tables, I don;t see the point. If you want to work with those you are MUCH better off using JMRI anyway. I can get anything to run well enough together just using CV2 for start speed, CV 6 for top speed, and CV 5 for top speed. Which is why I reject any decoder that does not support CV6. These too are adjusted in Ops Mode on the main anyway, so I can see the results of each change, so it doesn;t really matter what the value USED to be, I only care what I'm plugging in now. Even in a situation such as finding a recommendation that CV xx should be set to y - I don't care what it is now, only that I want it to be y, so I program CV xx to y and done.
Your best bet though is probably the SPROG and JMRI on your computer. The SPROG is the fastest NMRA standard programmer (for readback) there is and will read adn write any decoder with no problem. I get similar results with my PR3, I haven't found a decoder I can't read, and the people at the club have any number of different brands, but some others have found it necessary to use a different power supply than the one that comes with the PR3 - mine works with the included one. So overall the SPROG is less potential hassle, the PR3 is cheaper and also pulls double duty to interface the computer to the DCC system, but the standalone mode you need to read back CV values MIGHT require you to swap in a different power supply.
Roger,
As you are deciding what to do, I will muddy this a bit. Spend time on the Digitrax website and you will quickly notice what you have has been discontinued and replaced. Same is true with the SoundTraxx Tsunami decoders.
Randy has covered a few requirements necessary to make do with the Digitrax system you have. Are you sure you want to spend money to make do?
RR Baron
They've discontinued the existing boosters, but they aren't obsolete, they still do the same job. I still use an old DT100 throttle to runs trains.
One touted advantage is firmware upgrades. For the older stuff, there only ever was one update, adn that was more than 15 years ago, when the functions were first extended to F12. The earliest DCS100 command stations had a firmware bug that made it just repeat F4-F8 when you used F9-F12.
The one nice thing about the new ones is that htey can be used as 3, 5, or 8 amp boosters - and work properly. With the old ones, if you had a 5 ampo booster and put it on a power supply only capable of 3 amps, you'd get erractic operation once you exceeded the power supply. On the new ones you can set it so it knows it is connected to a 3 amp power supply. Or 5 amp. or 8 amp.
Heck, I'm still using my original Zephyr, not an Xtra, as my promary command station. My last layout was designed for a maximum of 2 trains, 3 if I had ever finished the cement plant, so the 12 loco limit of the Zephyr was not a problem. I bought it 14 or 15 years ago, and it still works just fine.
Definitely look into a PR3 or SPROG and JMRI. JMRI is a bit bewildering at first, but give it a chance and a few hours of trial and error and using the Decoder Pro part of JMRI will be a cakewalk compared to trying to do anyProgramming via a throttle. Plus with a few extra steps you can set the throttle aside and run everything from your smartphone Or tablet.
I guess I need to go back to DC operation! I haven't got a clue what PR3, SPROG and JMRI are. I own a flip phone and really don't see a need for a smartphone or tablet.
Am I to understand that everything I have now is worthless junk? I can't use a Tsunami? Has DCC changed so much that I'm using, or trying to use, something that won't work with any newer Economi's or a TSC decoder?
Does everyone completely replace their older systems every few years? I'm more confused about all this now than when I posted my question.
Roger, not hijacking, just joining in since I have the same Digitrax as you. I wired everything using blocks, with gaps on both rails, and most of my locos run on address 03, because programing became an issue. I have downloaded the JMRI on an older computer, dedicated to layout use only, no internet connection, which uses XP, which has yet to be connected to the layout system. I found a great tutorial video for connecting, and using the JMRI, which I have on my YouTube channel.
Because I used the block set-up, like the old cab control, but with both rails gapped, I can easily switch back and forth from DC to DCC. Only one system is connected to the layout at any given time, never both.
There is also a good Yahoo group on using Digitrax, which sometimes can be a bit intimidating, but basic questions are answered.
I will be watching this thread with interest!
Mike
My You Tube
oldline1 I guess I need to go back to DC operation! I haven't got a clue what PR3, SPROG and JMRI are. I own a flip phone and really don't see a need for a smartphone or tablet.
No, you don't have to go back to DCC. It sounds like you just need to familiarize yourself a little better with the equipment you have and it's abilities, and maybe brush up on what's been happening in the DCC world over the past sveral years. Kind of like when the DC world moved from rheostats to transistor throttles. There was a learning curve.
And no, you don't have to use a smart phone or tablet with DCC. It's just another option if you're interested.
oldline1 Am I to understand that everything I have now is worthless junk?
Am I to understand that everything I have now is worthless junk?
Absolutely not, especially with Digitrax! You may need a different throttle (or software such as JMRI) to program decoders, but the Empire Builder itself is perfectly capable of working with that throttle or software and handling today's DCC needs.
oldline1 I can't use a Tsunami? Has DCC changed so much that I'm using, or trying to use, something that won't work with any newer Economi's or a TSC decoder?
I can't use a Tsunami? Has DCC changed so much that I'm using, or trying to use, something that won't work with any newer Economi's or a TSC decoder?
Sure you can. Many Empire Builder owners are doing just that. See my previous two responses in this post.
oldline1 Does everyone completely replace their older systems every few years? I'm more confused about all this now than when I posted my question. Roger Huber
Nope, they don't, especially with Digitrax. Part of it's beauty is that very little of it ever becomes obsolete. Sure, new capabilities are introduced, but in most cases it's additive to what you have already. My Super Chief is at least 12 or 14 years old (I'd have to check, it's been so long I don't remember when I bought it) and I have no plans at this point to replace it.
I've looked at the new Digitrax command stations and boosters so I'm aware of what they bring to the table, and yes, they have some pretty nice features. But nothing I can't live without. And that brings me back to my first point in this post - Familiarize yourself with what you have, learn about what's available, and go from there.
oldline1Am I to understand that everything I have now is worthless junk? I can't use a Tsunami? Has DCC changed so much that I'm using, or trying to use, something that won't work with any newer Economi's or a TSC decoder?
Just because something has been discotinued, that doesn't mean that it is obsolete or can not be used anymore. Samsung no longer makes a Galaxy S6, although it is still a good and useable phone, I certainly hope to get many more years of use out of mine.
You can still use your Tsunamis even if you get a brand new system, and you can use the newest decoders on the very first DCC systems made.
richg1998 Digitrax DCC systems have issues with Tsunami and some other decoders. Some use a 1k resistor clipped across the programming track. Some get a booster You can blast mode on the main but with no other locos on the track. I have seen many discussions about this issue in various forums. You can do an Internet search and you find many links. Ohters will jump in for sure. You could switch to NCE systems. I use the Power cab and club uses the five amp Power Pro and no issues for us programming. Try the resistor or blast mode first before buying. Rich
His problems were with reading, not programming, which in his case the decoders being Tsunamis is irrelevant because of the lack of readback with the Empire Builder.
The issue with some Digitrax command stations and Tsunamis is caused by the Tsunamis drawing more power up current than most decoders, and is an issue with many command stations, including the NCE Power Pro.
No, you are not stuck with some obsolete junk that doesn;t work - the DCC standard in part has something to do with that, you will be able to run locos using the very newest decoders with your system with no problems. Like I said, I'm still using my Zephyr which I bought like 14 years ago. Runs the very newest Loksound Select decoders as well as older ones I bought back then.
Things don't move all that fast in the model railroad world - that UT4 you have is the same one they still sell today, because there was nothing that changed that would require the device to be changed.
This article from the Digitrax Tech Support Depot pretty well explains the current lineup and how the pieces fit together:
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB1048/digitrax-command-control-future-now/
You can find a lot of useful information there. And also on the Yahoo Digitrax group.
Randy:
Thanks for posting this link. I think that it is an excellent starter introduction for new to DCC operators as well as a good "refresher" for some of us who have been in DCC for a while.
Joe
Want to lessen the time to get passed the wall you have hit --- find someone with hands on experience to provide over-the-shoulder supervision setting up and using the Digitrax system you have and how to control the decoder equipped locomotives you have. They should help you select what else , if anything, is necessary to use what you have. Most important, they can help you understand the available documentation.
In order to get what you need out of what you have, you need to know what you need.
Read that again.
Too many people find quick solutions to problems that are either ill-defined in their minds, or problems they didn't know they had!
What had you hoped to accomplish years ago when you migrated to DCC that DC couldn't do for you? Was it to manage new sound decoders, ones you were purchasing installed or were about to install as conversions to existing DC locomotives? Somehow you found a way to do that for the most part. Now, years later, you are fuzzy and have grown a bit intimidated by what you must relearn in order to enjoy your new creation...is this a close approximation?
My experience in DCC has only ever been via what I lovingly call "The Clunk." It's the same DB150 and two DT400 throttles...the Super Empire Builder. I haven't found a decoder yet that it couldn't spank and leave it kye-yying around the tracks. As Randy says, it don't need no stinkin' programming track, no boosters, nuthin'.
Yes, it doesn't talk to me...or to you. My QSI decoders do, but that's another story. I have taken to recording with a short pencil what my long memory can't feed back to me several months or years later. Once I have reliable performance out of a locomotive that meets my needs, complete with excellent BEMF control, momentum and intertia settings, chuff rate, bell rate, etc, they get recorded in a binder with tabs.
I suspect you have no stomach for all of that. No judgement...you have to have fun when you do all this, and it seems the DB150 combo isn't going to satisfy you any longer. It's your call to decide what you want and what you won't put up with any more. As someone just above has questioned you, why pay money for a system that you must add to when you can sell what you have, invest another $150 or so, and get exactly what you want that will make you happy (happiest)?
If life is short, our time in this hobby is a lot shorter. It should at least be fun and fulfilling. Do some of the heavy slogging you didn't do previously, find out what you need, and when you get it, learn about it...actually read the manuals and try flicking some switches and push buttons. Like decoders, these systems can be reset and restored so that you can undo major srewups.
I don't mean to lecture...I mean to help you to deal with some realities in a more productive way, mostly with a view to having you excited, not exasperated.
Please.
Do it for yourself, do it fully, and become a happy expert in how to achieve hobby happiness.
Well, when you live in an area with no hobby shops or modelers close by getting "hands on" help and experience is rather difficult. Going to the forums is the best I can do. Some folks are very helpful, stick to the topic and actuall offer good advice and experience. Others tend to talk down and badger people and get way far away from the topic. I would prefer to get the hands on help but it is what it is.
When I got in to DCC my goals were to be able to eliminate all the blocks, improve performance, allow doubleheading at times, make operations easier & more prototypical and to utilize the then new sound systems. I bought the Super Empire Builder set at a local shop that had little experience and didn't offer much help. Being absolutely new I didn't know what quesions to ask or could tell any features that were different between sets. In the area I lived the choice was Digitrax or nothing so I bought it based on the "hands on" advice of that shop.
I found it rather confusing and the Digitrax manuals didn't seem to help much. A call to Digitrax gave an answer of "it's all in the manuals". Thanks for the great support!
Wanting sound I bought a couple Tsunamis and installed them in my Spectrum Russian Decapods and a P2K USRA 0-6-0 by hard wiring as these were before they came with plugs. I didn't have any issues and they seemed to work ok. Then the engines would either do imitations of bricks with airpump sounds or run away wide open.
Soundtrax was very helpful and walked me through it all and recommended I get a Power Pax. Tony's supplied that and some more technical advice and things went well.
My issue is when programming the CVs in the engines it is hard for me to tell where I am or what I have for settings. Yes, I made pencil and paper notes of what I put in but I just think having the decoder read them to me would save a lot of aggrivation and time. I found the process very long & cumbersome and not even close to the "model railroading is fun" mantra.
I'm an old guy an the idea of plugging my layout into a computer is just repulsive. I don't want to and won't get my computer involved in my modeling other than forums and ordering from Kleins & Tony's. I have enough problems with my computer and can't see subjecting my layout to those too.
I just thought a new command station would help but apparently Digitrax has updated and changed them from what I was semi-familiar with so I don't know what to order now. No, I don't want to call them and ask. Once was enough.
selectorI suspect you have no stomach for all of that. No judgement...you have to have fun when you do all this, and it seems the DB150 combo isn't going to satisfy you any longer. It's your call to decide what you want and what you won't put up with any more. As someone just above has questioned you, why pay money for a system that you must add to when you can sell what you have, invest another $150 or so, and get exactly what you want that will make you happy (happiest)? If life is short, our time in this hobby is a lot shorter. It should at least be fun and fulfilling. Do some of the heavy slogging you didn't do previously, find out what you need, and when you get it, learn about it...actually read the manuals and try flicking some switches and push buttons. Like decoders, these systems can be reset and restored so that you can undo major srewups. I don't mean to lecture...I mean to help you to deal with some realities in a more productive way, mostly with a view to having you excited, not exasperated. Please. Do it for yourself, do it fully, and become a happy expert in how to achieve hobby happiness.
I think selector nailed it here. If you DCC system isnt working for you, I would suggest looking around to see what is available from other manufacturers.
Write down a list of all the problems you are having with your current system. Make a specific list of what you want to do.
There are other DCC manufacturers out there.
There is a market for second hand DCC systems.
I have been a happy NCE customer for over 4 years now. Any questions or issues I have had have been answered by either NCE tech support or the Yahoo users group.
Thanks for your informative reply, Roger. Well....I don't see any way around your situation other than to suggest you divest yourself of what isn't 'doing it for you' any more, and try another DCC system. Hooking it up is pretty much the same, the form factor will be slightly different, and you'll have to learn that new system. But, it may be a lot more intuitive and satisfying for you. That's your aim...to get back to having fun.
You wouldn't be the first person to toss Digitrax and try something else, not on this forum. I haven't read anyone reporting back that they had made a mistake in doing so.
I think the CV readback has become extremely attractive for you. You don't have that capability at the moment. Doing all this stuff through a computer turns your blood cold. Another no-go. You need a DCC system that does what you need it to do, and that's not Digitrax.
-Crandell
I know you profess the "no computer" attitude but it woudl solve most ALL of the issues you raise. NO brand of DCC system directly makes setting CVs in various locos 'easy' - yes that means you too, NCE. You get a CV number and a value. But what does that CV do on a Tsunami? WHat does it do on a different brand non-sound decoder? That's where JMRI comes in - you pick from drop down listsof choices and selection buttons. And the only choices shown are the one relevent to the specific decoder you are working on, not just a list of ever possible CV. Those are further grouped in JMRI to sepeare pages of related information - so you want to change the sound settings, you go to the ssound tab and skip right past the motor control and lighting functions to a page that contains the optiosn for the sounds, and ONLY the sounds. It initially sounds complicated but in the end it is much easier than ANY brand of DCC system.
Simply getting a PR3 and hooking it to your computer, and a spare piece of track, and installing JMRI on your computer will get you all that you are after. Once programmed, your existing system will have no problem running anything. You don't have to replace anything. If you bought a new command station, you would get CV read capability, but you'd still be in the same boat as far as figuring out what all those CVs are. But if that's the way you want to go, your closest option to what you have now would actually be the Zephyr Xtra. That will also get you another throttle, built in to the unit, but you can also do what I did with mine and just park it under the layout and never use the front panel controls. Your choice. This will give you CV readback and easily tie in with the existing system. Two connections to make: plug a 6 pin phone cable between the Zephyr and your DB150, and take the wires from your program track and hook them to the program track terminals on the Zephyr. Lastly, put a short jumer wire between config A and ground on the DB150. You are now all set to go. It really is that easy.
rrinker NO brand of DCC system directly makes setting CVs in various locos 'easy'
Well, the ESU programmer makes it somewhat easy for ESU decoders, but it still requires a computer..............
maxman rrinker NO brand of DCC system directly makes setting CVs in various locos 'easy' Well, the ESU programmer makes it somewhat easy for ESU decoders, but it still requires a computer..............
Right but that's akin to JMRI and a PR3, or SPROG, or whatever. OP seems confused enough without bringing up yet another, more proprietary option. I was referring to programming from the system throttle, Digitrax vs NCE vs MRC vs CVP vs Lenz, etc. By itself, the most you can hope for is a display of a CV number and the value assigned, which they ALL do.