I have a Broadway Limited Paragon 2 SW1500 on which power cuts out over some turnout frogs at slow speed. BLI and Caboose Hobbies say keep alive capacitors are not avilable for BLI. My track is Kato HO with #6 turnouts with plastic frogs.
There is a decided wheel bump at some of the frogs as the wheel centers over the frog just past the point. The wheel seems to drop down at that point, like droping into a slight hole. I assume track imperfections are causing the problems but don't know what to do about it. I wish I hadn't used the Kato track.
Any suggestions on how to fix this? I sure need keep alive. My six axle loco works fine.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Are you running with the traction tire wheelset, or the one without? The one without gives another axle of power pickup, at the expense of pulling power.
There aren't keep alives for a lot of decoders - but with some investigation of the circuit, you can find the point to connect one. Alternately, you cna add some track wipers in parallel with the wheel pickups to oncrease the area the loco collects current from.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
No traction tire on this one. BLI said they could do some things to help so I sent it to them and they did a number of things but it didn't help at all.
Is there any way to extend the power a short distance into the plastic frog?
An $82 semi-sledge hammer approach would be to switch the decoder to one more capacitor friendly. My example being a LokSound Select AUX6 (direct costs a bit more I think). The Selects have diagrams in the manual on where to hook capacitors. But you also need to have the room for both the decoder and the capacitor. I'd guess it would be possible, at worst having to mill some more room from the weight.
I have a Paragon 2 NW2 that handles turnouts ok, but my turnouts have powered frogs. I'm sympathetic to your issue because I have a Genesis GP9 that was my only loco to have similar problems, not at my turnouts but rather traversing a series of 3 imperfect track 90-degree crossings. When I changed its decoder to a Select (the main goal), I also experimented with squeezing a capacitor under the short hood. I did not then realize that the typical Radio Shack capacitors are not space efficient like the Keep Alive and Current Keeper supercaps. I was lucky that the largest regular type that would fit (IIRC 2200 microfarad) solved the problem. If doing again I would get the appropriate supercap that would fit.
So, maybe someone can direct you to how to add capacitance to the specific Paragon 2 decoder and the issue is just getting to the connection points and the space for the caps. Alternately, try starting over?
Here are some related links. I don't see anything there specific to the paragon 2 decoders. Don't know if that means it's impractical or simply not mentioned since the dedoders may be unique to BLI (??) and they don't wish to convey how to tinker with them?? Note there are other things that catch one's eye; e.g., some things can't be done with the decoder unless temporarily disconnecting the caps? I think I also saw reference to that in the Select manual. Indeed, the manual says to disconnect it before programming with the LokProgrammer.
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Not to difficult if you have a basic knowledge of electronic components in a decoder and what a full wave bridge rectifier is. The output of the bridge is the DC operating voltage that powers all the components on the decoder.
The latest for Stay Alive are the super caps. Original stay alive was a cap, resistor and diode. Some still do that method.
Super caps are an improvement. Different decoder companies have different names for the module.
Original article before the super cap idea.
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20120729061658/http:/www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm
Many times, not plug and play.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I appreciate the input but I'm afraid that this way above my technical abilities, and since the two "experts" I talked to about this didn't think keep alive was possible on a BLI loco, I'll probably just sell rhe BLI and buy something that is more friendly to keep alive. This is a nice loco and shoould run great on proper track-work.
Like Paul suggested, you could swap the decoder and maybe put the BLI Paragon into another engine that has better pickup or a longer wheelbase.
Possibly, the most economic route would be a Soundtraxx Econami ($64) and a CurrentKeeper ($20) and these would probably both fit in your NW-2. Nice thing here is that it would be a pretty simple swap and the CurrentKeeper plugs directly into the Econammi.
I have a few Paragon boards sitting around. I'll take a look and see if I can find the — side of the circuit. The + side can just wire to the "blue" output wire.
Just a suggestion, Ed
Jerry,
I installed a home-made keep-alive module in a Stewart VO-600 switcher (from a diagram in the Loksound Select manual) and that's got to be similar in size to the BLI SW1500:
Course, I had to remove the cab interior to squeeze in the 2,200uF cap. The total cost of the conversion was a whopping $2.70 in parts, which I bought from Digi-Key. And it wasn't very complicated; only three parts needed: cap, diode, and resistor(?)
Another option would be to replace your turnouts with ones that have live frogs. However, if you would need to replace several to do that then that would probably be cost prohibitive.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Suggest you call TCS decoders and ask their advice. They make some decoders that work with BLI locos; also, separate keep-alives and decoders with built-in keep-alive function, including a very small one that I fit in an original Varney 0-4-0 Docksider.
Dante
Hi,
I have a BLI switcher (plus a Bowser and P2K) and they go over the Atlas turnouts (both 4s and 6s) with no problem whatsoever. However, they and other locos could not make it through the #8s, but that was fixed with an Atlas relay installation.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Thanks for all of the comments and suggestions. I think I will open it up, make some calls, and see what might work.
If Yours is acting like mine did...mine would do it anywhere....frogs are powered...the main problem I found, after trying every trick in the book, including redoing the pick-ups...was to add weight, to every nook and cranny I could find in that crammed in engine and that solved the problem dramatically. I used Bass pro shop lead line sinkers. They are little balls of lead, with a slit on one side that You crimp on Your line. I flatten them, square them, in any shape I can, to fit them in. Used a steel anvil and hammer. I was able to add 4 1/2 oz's to it. The way I found that out was to run it down the track, with a bean bag laying on it....two bean bags and it eliminated the stalling problem at slow speeds. I also removed all the Black from the wheel sets...inside and out.
Do what's best for You....but it worked for Me!
Good Luck!
Take Care!
Frank
My guess from what you describe is much more likely to be something with the wheels than with the track, since Kato track is very reliable. Get an NMRA gauge and check the wheelsets. Engines often come from the manufacturers with the wheelsets slightly off gauge - I've heard some manufacturers like to have their engines have wheels slightly narrower than normal, to make the engines go around tight curves easier. I bet if you check, the wheels are a bit narrow. If you spread them out a little, they'll probably sail thru the turnouts with no trouble.
BTW I have two BLI NW-2s running on Unitrack, no problems with pick up on either of them.
Frank,
Very interesting. I put a 6 1/2 oz. bag of candy on the loco and couldn't get it to cut out anywhere. I reduced to about 4 1/2 oz. and it still ran perfectly. Is there anything you have to watch out for in placing the weights?
Stix,
Good suggestions. Are you using HO Kato track?
jwils1 Frank, Very interesting. I put a 6 1/2 oz. bag of candy on the loco and couldn't get it to cut out anywhere. I reduced to about 4 1/2 oz. and it still ran perfectly. Is there anything you have to watch out for in placing the weights?
Not really....I did a couple of visuals, in relation to where I could put the weight and just tried to even it out. Some weight was flat, some square, I kept it away from the speaker....mine has sound. I used Loctite All Purpose GO2 glue...drys crystal clear and has a slight rubbery texture to it and will stick to most anything. If You need to take it off...It will just peel away, also deters any vibration. Another thing I have used it for. Sets in 30 min.,cures in 24.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/go2_glue/overview/Go2-Glue.htm
BTW: I run DC...But have some DCC W/sound engines and that was the only one I had problem's with.....mainly because, It was just way under weight I learned after a lot of fiddling.
Yes...DON'T block the engineer's view.
jwils1 Stix, Good suggestions. Are you using HO Kato track?
Yup, been using it for almost 10 years now.
Years back on a previous layout (using Walthers code 83 track) I had a pre-Waltehrs Life-Like/Proto E-8 that ran wonderfully well, except at one point it would stall on the main going over a turnout leading to an industrial spur (a No.5 turnout IIRC). Eventually I checked the wheels and they were very narrow in gauge. When I moved them farther apart, it ran with no problem from that point on.
Are the frogs metal, and have you considered powering them? What brand of turnouts?
Also, have you checked the continuity between wheels? Traction tires have already been mentioned, but another possibility is a loose wire leaving one or more wheels without pickup capability.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Off the rails, if you touch one lead to the front truck right hand front wheel, and the front truck, right hand rear wheel, you should have continuity. Also between the two wheels on the same side of the rear truck. Then ALSO between each right hand wheel on the front truck and each right hand wheel on the rear truck.
And the same for the wheels on the left. If this fails, particularly between wheels on the front truck and wheels on the rear truck, it means there is a broken connection somewhere in the track pickups and your loco isn;t really picking up from all 8 wheels. On the side with no continuioty, it's only picking up from the 2 wheels of one of the trucks, which means it doesn't take much to make it stall.
Along with Randy's suggestion on checking for continuity for pick-up...put the loco on a sheet of glass or mirror and check to see if all wheels are touching the glass....You do that by trying to slide a piece of paper, like loose-leaf, under each wheel. If You can slide it under some wheels...the slightest uneveness or bump in Your track work...like Your unpowered frog, will cause it to interrupt Your power pick-up from the rails......In some cases like adding weight will help, but not always.....it did for Me.....but I had already did what I just suggested and redid the trucks for better pick-up. A combination of all three, is what I did.
BTW: When I first got mine yrs. ago...It would not only stall on the layout at slow speeds, but on a length of flex track connected to a test transformer on the work bench. Sound would stop/start recycle, before I could get to the end of the flex track and believe Me...it was not dirty track or wheels.
zstripe Jerry, Along with Randy's suggestion on checking for continuity for pick-up...put the loco on a sheet of glass or mirror and check to see if all wheels are touching the glass....You do that by trying to slide a piece of paper, like loose-leaf, under each wheel. If You can slide it under some wheels...the slightest uneveness or bump in Your track work...like Your unpowered frog, will cause it to interrupt Your power pick-up from the rails......In some cases like adding weight will help, but not always.....it did for Me.....but I had already did what I just suggested and redid the trucks for better pick-up. A combination of all three, is what I did. Good Luck! Frank BTW: When I first got mine yrs. ago...It would not only stall on the layout at slow speeds, but on a length of flex track connected to a test transformer on the work bench. Sound would stop/start recycle, before I could get to the end of the flex track and believe Me...it was not dirty track or wheels.
I did the paper on glass thing and there was some uneveness. The paper did slide under some of the wheels, although it was fairly snug so maybe it's not too bad.
The strange thing is that ever since I ran the loco with a bag of weights on top, and after taking the weights off, it is running so much better. Now it very rarely cuts out. So, I think adding weight is the best answer. I'm not sure how to adjust the wheels so I get equal bearing under all of them, and maybe they are already as close as I can get them. I also will try to regage the wheels because they do seem to be too close together. Again, I'm not sure how to do this but I will look into it. Thanks for all of your suggestions.
It would have been interesting to find out how the engine sat on the glass before You added weight to it. Mine had one of the trucks sitting at an angle, causing the front wheel to lift. After some fiddling, I noticed that the pick-up wire that is soldered to the side bar on one side of the truck was restricting the vertical movement up/down. The pick-up wire, was about an 1/8 inch too short. It was caused by assembling the engine with part of it catching the wire. I was able to free it and thereby lengthening the wire. You could of had a similar problem and the extra weight seated the trucks so they would sit firmly on the bolsters. The glass test should be a first step in trouble shooting an engine....warped trucks/frame etc.
Last year I bought a few Walthers DC Mainline engines....didn't care what roadname...they were half off. One of the SW 1's I got, when set on the layout, moved an inch and instantly shorted, in any direction. After some looking.. I noticed that the wires for both trucks pick-up were different on front and back...on different sides. My first thought was that the trucks were reversed.....naw! After closer examination, found that You can't reverse the trucks....the gear housings won't line up. So I reversed the wires on the back to match the front on the circuit board and it run like a charm. My guess is at assembly, they put the pick-up bars on the wrong side of the truck.......made Me wonder, how many others, our little Yellow friends did that way! LOL.
If You need help with gauging wheels, shoot Me a PM and I'll help...but it really is not hard. I would only worry about it, if they are way off...like picking turnout points or hitting guard rails.
I suppose it's possible putting the weight on the engine pushed something down, maybe a wire not making a good connection or something? Interesting. I'm still betting on the out-o-gauge wheelsets.
I have two Athearn Genesis with Sountraxx Tsunami's in them (GP38 and GP50). Both locos are incredibly finicky. Even though we have added power to our atlas turnout frogs (yes, we would love to change them all out, but cannot right now),The locos lose sound often, and sometimes stall on the turnouts. I've scrubbed the track, cleaned the wheels and checked the guage - all is good there.
Question is: Can i install the Soundtraxx CurrentKeeper to these locos?If so, can someone direct me to information on the install before I go and buy them?
Thanks everyone.
-G