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Broadway Limited E7A, runs backwards only in 128 speed step mode?

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Broadway Limited E7A, runs backwards only in 128 speed step mode?
Posted by BMMECNYC on Friday, July 17, 2015 2:40 PM

So I guess I'll start out with system specs

NCE PH-Pro 5Amp

NCE ProCab throttle

BLI E7A DCC/Sound Item #2727 B&M 3807

Programmed locomotive on programming track.  Entered short address of 3, Activated Long Address 6207. 

Exited programming track mode, placed locomotive on the main

Locomotive functions normally in 28 speed steps.

Pressed 28/128 button on Procab.

Locomotive will only run in Reverese.

Placed locomotive on programming track. Programmed CV 8 to 8. Cycled power.  Re-entered long address.  Placed Locomotive on main.  Runs normally in 28 step, reverse only in 128.

Programmed CV 29 to 34 on the main(OPS Programming mode).  No effect. Called BLI, they told me to do the above steps.  I told them I did that.  They said it would be 10weeks for repair or they could send me a new decoder.  They are sending me a new decoder next week.

Anyone have any idea if this is a programming error that i can fix myself?

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, July 17, 2015 6:01 PM

Is the loco brand new, out of the box?

If not new, had it previously performed OK?

Rich

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, July 17, 2015 6:31 PM

 Try it when it's on address 3 after a reset. If it still does the same thing, there's something really screwy with the decoder. If it works after a fresh reset on the default address but not after you give it a different address, it's likely something in the system or programming although the steps you list are correct. How about a DIFFERENT long address? Just make one up, like 1234. If THAT works - then you have a DCC system problem with the address you were trying to use, or one of the craziest bugs ever in the decoder.

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Posted by ricktrains4824 on Monday, July 20, 2015 11:17 AM

If it does this on "3", definitely a decoder issue.

Basic question time: This is the only locomotive that does this, correct? If so, my vote is decoder problem. But, if others are also behaving this way, it might be a throttle issue... Or even a system issue.

We do know, based off of item number, it is the Paragon 2 version, so, only one decoder. That eliminates the dual decoder issues that the Blueline units have.

But, until further conflicting information is provided, I would say it's a bad decoder.

Ricky W.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Monday, July 20, 2015 2:15 PM

Yes it is very new, straight out of the box.  I ordered it through my LHS and it arrived last week from the manufacturer.  I will attempt running it on short address 3 after a reset as suggested, but I own other paragon 2 locomotives and none have this issue. 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, July 20, 2015 3:25 PM

Well, if it is new out of the box, it sounds like a faulty decoder.  Since BLI is sending a new decoder, you will find out soon enough.

Rich

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, July 20, 2015 4:11 PM

CV8 = 8  is reset for Tsunami IIRC. (If I Recall Correctly) not QSI or Paragon 2

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, July 20, 2015 4:26 PM

DigitalGriffin

CV8 = 8  is reset for Tsunami IIRC. (If I Recall Correctly) not QSI or Paragon 2

 

 

Paragon 2 reset is also CV8=8.

Rich

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Friday, July 24, 2015 1:30 PM

richhotrain
 
DigitalGriffin

CV8 = 8  is reset for Tsunami IIRC. (If I Recall Correctly) not QSI or Paragon 2

 

 

 

 

Paragon 2 reset is also CV8=8.

 

Rich

 

Yep, I looked it up in the manual before I did it.  Something I always do before I try to do anything with decoders.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Friday, July 31, 2015 2:17 PM

New decoder arrived yesterday, will update when I get the time to drop it in.

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, July 31, 2015 2:19 PM

Anxious to hear the result.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:34 PM

Installed decoder.  Noted that factory long address default was 3 digits. (Is this a limitation or a CV I need to change?)  Programmed to long address 6207 (modular club prefix plus last 2 digits of locomotive number).  Same problem.  Switched to short address 3.  It works in both directions on 128 speed steps.  Will try different long address in the morning.  And attempt 28 speed steps for arguements sake. 

Also would like to note that BLI does not use an 8 pin or 9pin or even a 21 pin plug, but 6 different size plugs with no standard wire coloring and anywhere from 1-4 wires in a plug, so I cant easily put in a different decoder without completely stripping this thing apart to trace wires.  Somewhat annoyed Bang Head

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:52 PM

 It's an OEM design, so they do their own thing. So did the OEM QSI decoders in older BLI locos and also Atlas and anyone else that used them. Their Paragon series decoders are also OEM proprietary, only used in their locos and not sold seperately, so I guess the have no real reason to use a 8, 9 or 21 pin connections. MTH Protosounds locos are much the same inside.

 Now several OEMs have standardized on ESU's 21 pin motherboard - Atlas, Bowser, and Intermountain.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:55 PM

Also note that the problem still exists.

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, September 19, 2015 9:01 PM

 Except now it DOES work on address 3. Is there a way to reset a PowerPro command station? I suspect some weird internal setting for that specific address is messing it up. Or try another random long address, like 1234. If that works - it's the system, not the decoder.

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, September 19, 2015 9:02 PM

For what it's worth, the board I pulled from a BLI diesel, if I recall an F-7, the pin outs were pretty clearly marked. The pair for the speaker were pretty obvious.

You can see headlights, F anode, F cathode R cathode, R anode on the left plug.

Motor — and + then Track — and + on the remainders.

Is yours so marked? Maybe BLI uses several suppliers but it shouldn't be too difficult to sort out the wiring.

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Sunday, September 20, 2015 8:04 AM

gmpullman
Is yours so marked? Maybe BLI uses several suppliers but it shouldn't be too difficult to sort out the wiring.

No, and that was only a side gripe.

Update,

Programmed the locomotive to 1234, it works.

Next I tried a higher 4 digit number, 6000, it works as well.

Tried 6207, still doesnt work.

Next 6307, works.  Which is where I will leave it for the moment.  Next I chose at random a locomotive to test whether the command station is functioning improperly.  Picked an Proto 1K RS2 with a NCE D13SRJ.  Programmed it to 6207.  It headlights turned off and on but no motor control.  I programmed it back to its original address 6202, and one of my 9043MACs started rolling.  Cause identified, the motor function on the decoder burned out by being held at a high speed stall current (removed decoder and re-installed dummy plug, tested sat on DC).  Oops - Sign

Picked a second P1K RS2 with D13SRJ programmed to 6207.  It ran correctly.  Would my next step be to select a different BLI paragon 2 product and attempt to program to 6207?

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 20, 2015 9:20 AM

BMMECNYC, I hope you are sitting down when you read this.

I have a BLI E7, but it is a Paragon, not a Paragon 2.

So, instead, I selected a Paragon 2 steam locomotive, BLI Item No. 2204.

On the Programming track, I changed the long address to 6207.  Put it on the mainline and ran it forward. Fine.  Ran it in reverse. Fine. Pressed the 28/128 button on my NCE ProCab once, speed setting now 128.  Tried to run it forward, it went in reverse.  Tried to run it in reverse, it went in reverse.  How does that grab you?

So, I put it back on the Programming track and changed the long address to 6208. Put it on the mainline and ran it forward. Fine.  Ran it in reverse. Fine. Pressed the 28/128 button on my NCE ProCab once, speed setting now 128. Tried to run it forward, it went forward.  Tried to run it in reverse, it went in reverse. Go figure.

So, I hope that I have restored your sanity.  I sure cannot explain it.  Is it a bug in the Paragon 2 decoder?  Probably.  Has the long address 6207 have some special meaning or application on a Paragon 2 decoder?  Who knows?  Is it a quirk when an NCE PH-Pro is communicating with a Paragon 2 decoder.  Doubt it.

I suppose I could try my Paragon E7A with the long address 6207.  OK, I will.

Rich

Edit Note:  I went through the same procedure described above with one of my Paragon E7A locomotives.  Everything performed correctly when assigning the locomotive a long address of 6207, regardless of whether the speed setting was 28 or 128.  So, it sure appears to be a quirk with the Paragon 2 locomotive. Hopefully, others with Paragon 2 locomotives will try this procedure to see if the problem is universal when assigning the long address of 6207.

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, September 20, 2015 12:28 PM

 Your issue now is in the system itself, since another loco on the desired long address ALSO does not operate properly, but the suspect loco works fine on a short address or different long address. Somehow the internal state for that long address have become scrambled in the command station. Check the manual, I know how to reset a Digitrax system but not NCE.

                          --Randy


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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 20, 2015 12:41 PM

rrinker

 Your issue now is in the system itself, since another loco on the desired long address ALSO does not operate properly, but the suspect loco works fine on a short address or different long address. Somehow the internal state for that long address have become scrambled in the command station. Check the manual, I know how to reset a Digitrax system but not NCE.

                          --Randy

 

So, Randy, are you saying it is the NCE system, not the Paragon 2 decoder, at the heart of the problem?  If so, why would the NCE system work correctly with a Paragon loco with QSI decoder and accept the long address 6207 without any problems?

Rich

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Posted by JoeinPA on Sunday, September 20, 2015 12:54 PM

Perhaps someone with a Digitrax system and a Paragon 2 loco could try Rich's proceedure and see if the same problem happens?

Joe

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 20, 2015 2:26 PM

JoeinPA

Perhaps someone with a Digitrax system and a Paragon 2 loco could try Rich's proceedure and see if the same problem happens?

Joe

 

Good idea.  Any takers?

Rich

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Sunday, September 20, 2015 3:04 PM

rrinker

 Your issue now is in the system itself, since another loco on the desired long address ALSO does not operate properly, but the suspect loco works fine on a short address or different long address. Somehow the internal state for that long address have become scrambled in the command station. Check the manual, I know how to reset a Digitrax system but not NCE.

                          --Randy

 

The RS2 worked correctly when programmed to address 6207.  Only the Paragon 2 decoder seems to have issues with the address 6207.  I do not believe this is a system problem.  

 

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Sunday, September 20, 2015 3:15 PM

davidmbedard
Can you reset your DCC system? Sounds like you have that address mu'd or something. ....or its selected on another throttle?

David,

That thought had occured to me and I killed consist 6207 to be sure.  It was a few months ago but I have   deleted all E7 consists with no result (have 2 other E7s and they are the only locomotives I would have entered this one in a consist with.  

As for throttles,  I honestly dont know if that is the case or not but i will check.  The E7 in question has only been operated from my pro-cab, and I only have one pro-cab.  The rest are cab 05.

 

edit:  also I might add that the original decoder was not tested on any address other than 6207.  All testing since July posts has been on new decoder from BLI,  because I was operating on te assumption that the original decoder was faulty.  

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 20, 2015 3:53 PM

BMMECNYC

 

 
davidmbedard
Can you reset your DCC system? Sounds like you have that address mu'd or something. ....or its selected on another throttle?

 

 

David,

That thought had occured to me and I killed consist 6207 to be sure.  It was a few months ago but I have   deleted all E7 consists with no result (have 2 other E7s and they are the only locomotives I would have entered this one in a consist with.  

As for throttles,  I honestly dont know if that is the case or not but i will check.  The E7 in question has only been operated from my pro-cab, and I only have one pro-cab.  The rest are cab 05.

 

edit:  also I might add that the original decoder was not tested on any address other than 6207.  All testing since July posts has been on new decoder from BLI,  because I was operating on te assumption that the original decoder was faulty.  

 

Let me add a thought or two.

First, when I tested my Paragon 2 steam loco on my NCE PH-Pro, I tested it using the long address 6207 and experienced the same problem as the OP.  I have never put that loco in a consist, or perhaps the better term for a steam loco is that I have mu'd it.  However, I still checked CV19 to be sure, and the value was zero.

Second, while I do have two ProCabs, I have never used long address 6207 on any of my locos, so there is no chance that long address 6207 was present on another throttle.

Third, my NCE PH-Pro does accept the long address 6207 on non-Paragon 2 decoders without any performance problems.  

So, it is my preliminary conclusion that the NCE command station/throttle is not at fault.

I just had another thought.  I will post this issue on the NCE-DCC forum on Yahoo Groups.

Rich

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, September 20, 2015 3:58 PM

But your paragon 2 loco works on any address EXCEPT that one specific one. I still says it's a system problem. Last time someone had that sort of an issue, thery did all the same stuff, sent the loco back for repairs, still had the same problem. System reset solved it.

 Is it that difficult a task with NCE? When things go wonky the first thing I do it reset the decoder. If that fails, reset the command station as the second thing to try. We are dealing with computers here and their brains can get scrambled in some very odd ways. Both NCE and Digitrax are still using the same microcontrollers they were 15+ years ago even though there are newer ones with more memory that also run 10x as fast, and cost the same. There's just not enough money in the system sales to justify the R&D time to modify the hardware and write all new code that, with more room and speed to work with, might be able to implement more error checking and cleanup to prevent some of these random issues.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Sunday, September 20, 2015 4:14 PM

So even though other manufacturers decoders work on that one address, it is a problem with the system?  And 2 different systems are having the exact same problem with the same decoder brand.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 20, 2015 4:22 PM

Here are the steps to reset the NCE PH-Pro command station to factory default, but the problem is that a reset will clear all consists, macros, and system setup parameters, but this would be a last gasp action in my view.

Rich

press prog/esc  5 times

press enter  16 times 

display will say : reset system?

press 6 for Yes

press 1 to confirm

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 20, 2015 4:25 PM

I started a thread on the NCE DCC forum over on Yahoo Groups. 

Let's see what the boys over there have to say.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 20, 2015 4:40 PM

I guess the other question is whether there are any other long addresses besides 6207 that can be problematic on the Paragon 2 decoder.  For what its worth, the long address 6207 is programmed as follows: the high byte in CV17 is a value of 216, and the low byte in CV18 is 63.  When I looked at CV17 and CV18 on the programming track for long address 6207, those CV values were present.  I mention this because I do wonder if there is some peculiarity about either of these CV values.

Rich

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