Sorry, but you are incorrect here. The SB3/5 DOES take over as the command station. Perhaps you are thinking of the DB3 or DB5? They are simply boosters (DB = Dumb booster or booster only, SB = Smart Booster or booster and commmand station). If the SB does not take over as the command station, then explain the cab limit going from two (without the most recent updates) to four when used with an SB3. Also, if you update the Power Cab to the most recent version you get a six cab limit, but that falls back to four again when used with the SB3. Additionally, when going from the Power Cab to the SB, you lose any command station settings you may have changed and any macros that you may have set up. The simple fact is, the SB DOES take over as the command station.
CSX Roberthowever, the SB3/5 does have a command station, so you are replacing both the booster and the command station in the Power Cab when you are operating with the SB3/5.
You are not taking away the command station. The only thing you lose in pro cab mode is track power from the power cab. If this was true you could simply use an SB5 and an engineers throttle like an 04P and have a running system? The smart booster just repeats the last command to the track power and can not be used full function without a Power Cab. If you have one try it. Unplug the power cab and see if you can enter an address that is not in recall on an engineers throttle and see if it can be controlled without the power cab knowing.
I apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread and being a little terse earlier.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
locoi1sa ... Anyway the SB3 or the SB5 does not have a command station. What it does have is a repeater to keep repeating the packets sent by the command station that is still in the Power Cab...
...
Anyway the SB3 or the SB5 does not have a command station. What it does have is a repeater to keep repeating the packets sent by the command station that is still in the Power Cab...
If this were correct, you would still be replacing the booster in the Power Cab; however, the SB3/5 does have a command station, so you are replacing both the booster and the command station in the Power Cab when you are operating with the SB3/5. This last part is important - they kept the price of the SB3/5 lower by not including a separate program track output. The command station/booster of the Power Cab takes the place of the separate program track output, so it is not completely replaced by the SB3/5. The retail cost of a Power Cab over a regular Pro Cab is only about $30, so that is all the command station/booster of the Power Cab is costing you.
travel1903 I read mixed reviews on using the DC or 0000 function on DCC cabs like Zephyr. Some have said as long as the DC locomotive stays on the track only when in use that everything is fine; however, more people have said it is not worth the risk.
I read mixed reviews on using the DC or 0000 function on DCC cabs like Zephyr. Some have said as long as the DC locomotive stays on the track only when in use that everything is fine; however, more people have said it is not worth the risk.
I have the Digitrax Zephyr Extra and have often had a DC loco-not running-on the layout while operating a DCC loco. So far, no problem.
Dante
As I understand it they are all good choices. Depending on the way you want to operate, there might be slight differences on which one may be best for your situation.
I recently took the plunge and the first question I was asked by the dealer was "are there other operating layouts in your area?" The suggestion was, if there were, get a system compatible to it so that you can take your controller to operate on another layout or they can bring one to yours.
The NCE was my strong leaning also and knowing that there was a large operating layout in the area using NCE helped settle the issue.
The single controller can be taken to another layout using the 4 wire cable and used as your hand held there, even if you have a Power Cab and they have a Pro Cab.
I have operated three locomotives at once with it (that's all I've got) and it worked fine. I just had to be careful due to the small size of my layout.
There is one thing I didn't care for. You cannot use a longer 6 wire cable attached to the controller when it is used as the main source of power. Had I realized the problem, I would have put my fascia mount in a different location so I could stand at more locations around the layout.
As for needing more power. I asked the same question and was told that an 8'x14' layout I am thinking of would not need additional power, unless I was operating many locomotives. Since I am primarily a lone operator, it shouldn't be a problem. Even if another operator joined me, we should each be able to operate two locomotives without a problem. I think moderate size layouts with grades requiring (or just running) multiple locos together are the only ones that would need additional power. Of course if you are running turnouts and other things off the power, you may need added power.
Good luck,
Richard
Stevert Riddle me this, Batman: When you add the SB5, which command station and booster are powering the layout? The ones built into the PowerCab, or the ones that make up the SB5? What about the power supply that comes with the PowerCab? Doesn't the SB5's power supply supplant it?
Riddle me this, Batman:
When you add the SB5, which command station and booster are powering the layout? The ones built into the PowerCab, or the ones that make up the SB5? What about the power supply that comes with the PowerCab? Doesn't the SB5's power supply supplant it?
Don't call me Batman. I hate Batman.
Anyway the SB3 or the SB5 does not have a command station. What it does have is a repeater to keep repeating the packets sent by the command station that is still in the Power Cab. Once the owner upgrades to the SB5 the only thing you don't really need is the panel and wall wart. Many owners will relocate them to a dedicated programming track or the work bench. Many find that a plus but maybe you don't? No wasted products in my eyes.
StevertAs far as the NCE-USB interface's limitations, if you follow the link I posted, instead of trying to divert attention to the Power Pro's serial interface, you can read what the JMRI developers, and not me, have to say about it.
As far as I know this problem was rectified with an upgrade. So if the OP buys a new item then it is a moot point. The information in the link even states USB version 7.* and above, system with version 1.65 and above firmware, AIU supported.
So you can jump down off the mighty Digitrax or nothing horse and come to some realization that there are more options besides one for someone to spend their money on.
Batman out.
travel1903 Sorry for the confusion. My layout will be HO scale with HO/HOn3 dual gauge Code 70 track on the main line. My reason being I only have enough room for one layout, but I like both 3' narrow gauge and standard gauge. My basic design will be variant of a wider longer version (6'X10') of this classic design, http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/plan-1.htm
Sorry for the confusion. My layout will be HO scale with HO/HOn3 dual gauge Code 70 track on the main line. My reason being I only have enough room for one layout, but I like both 3' narrow gauge and standard gauge. My basic design will be variant of a wider longer version (6'X10') of this classic design, http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/plan-1.htm
Looks a layout for a lot of fun - especially for rail fan operations.
Just so you don't get caught by surprise - if you are running 2 trains in opposite directions on the main, you need two passing tracks instead of the one shown on the plan to keep the trains moving. And the passing tracks need to be nearly double your train length if the train is not to stop and wait while on the passing track. The track plan will be a lot easier to operate if all trains are going the same direction on the main.
2nd gotcha in the plan - There is no way not to foul the main while switching the spurs. In the lower right corner, if both spurs come off the passing track, the other track can be used as a through track.
To make matters worse, the 2 spurs not in the lower right are opposite directions. Which means one will be a facing point with no nearby runaround to help you.
3rd gotcha in the plan - The 2 spurs not in the right appear to be on or near main track grades. You may have runaway portions of train while switching those spurs.
A lot of small track plans have these "flaws". How much they affect you depends on what kind of operation you envision, how much switching you want to do, and what kind of modifications to the plan you anticipate making.
....I have no idea how much power or how many throttles I will need in time, so I need a system I can expand on if or when I need to.
Unless you are planning on a future expansion, your input at 3 trains maximum running at any given time looks spot on to me. As to number of throttles, you never need more than one throttle per operator. And it could be less if a given operator is running more than one train.
I read mixed reviews on using the DC or 0000 function on DCC cabs like Zephyr. Some have said as long as the DC locomotive stays on the track only when in use that everything is fine; however, more people have said it is not worth the risk. I know I could make a toggle system, switching from DCC to DC, like you spoke of, but I'd rather convert convert most of my Athreans to DCC. Other than that I have three Mantua standard gauge steamer and an older MDC 2-8-0 I feel I can convert as well. I will start with the Athreans and learn what I can, then dive into the steamers. I will buy at least one new DCC factory locomotive to set up any of the DCC units.
I know I could make a toggle system, switching from DCC to DC, like you spoke of, but I'd rather convert convert most of my Athreans to DCC. Other than that I have three Mantua standard gauge steamer and an older MDC 2-8-0 I feel I can convert as well. I will start with the Athreans and learn what I can, then dive into the steamers. I will buy at least one new DCC factory locomotive to set up any of the DCC units.
Since my club uses NCE, my choice of DCC system was made for me. NCE and MRC do not have the "0" option, so I have no personal experience to validate the mixed reviews. But the real reason for the DC toggle is not to keep from converting my locos to DCC. Rather it is to tune and set up my locos on DC before I convert them to DCC. Some of my locos have to be re-motored, and some have to be built up from kits. Tuning a locomotive to run well is much easier on straight DC where there is no masking of what is happening by the decoder settings. And you want it to run well before you go to the effort and time of installing a decoder. You are also going to want to know current draws of your older locomotives before putting decoders in.
A couple of final thoughts:
1) Regardless of which system you buy, use NCE 6 wire system for the jacks and throttle/Loconet bus. This will be compatible with Lenz, Digitrax, and NCE (possibly others). If you use the UP-5 Digitrax jacks, these will be incompatible with NCE and others if you ever decide to change systems. On a smaller layout with only a few throttles, the UP-5 external power capability is not needed. This I learned from our club and other users of Free-mo and Free-mo like standards. This does not change the basic compatibility rule - the command station and throttles all have to be the same manufacturer (or system).
2) Take your time, and do your wiring carefully - one step at a time. At modular setups - not just my club's - getting the DCC working properly over the entire layout is at least half the setup time. There are almost always a couple of glitches with modules not quite wired correctly, which causes "polarity" mismatches on the track bus between modules. Throttle jack plates can also be mis-wired and have to be blacked out or fixed for that setup. And because we require a local circuit breaker for each module set (so the whole layout doesn't go down because of a derailment or re-railment), the auto-reversers have to trip faster than the local breaker, which has to trip faster than the central circuit breaker. So the circuit breakers have to be in adjustment with the right timing. When every single module is wired correctly and tested, DCC just works!
just my thoughts and experiences, your choices
Fred W
....modeling foggy coast Oregon, where it's always 1900.... (in HO and HOn3)
locoi1sa StevertToo limited. "Expansion" actually consists of replacing bits and pieces until you get what you want/need. For example, need more amps or more than a couple throttles? Then replace the PowerCab's built-in booster with an SB-whatever-number-they're-on-now. Also, the computer interface has lots of restrictions. WHAT? You don't replace the power cab. You add onto it with the SB5. While your Zephyr sits on the bench I can walk around with my throttle without adding another throttle. What restrictions are you talking about? With the standard PH pro system the computer can plug right into the command station. Pete
StevertToo limited. "Expansion" actually consists of replacing bits and pieces until you get what you want/need. For example, need more amps or more than a couple throttles? Then replace the PowerCab's built-in booster with an SB-whatever-number-they're-on-now. Also, the computer interface has lots of restrictions.
WHAT? You don't replace the power cab. You add onto it with the SB5. While your Zephyr sits on the bench I can walk around with my throttle without adding another throttle. What restrictions are you talking about? With the standard PH pro system the computer can plug right into the command station.
All you have left of the PowerCab is the equivalent of a ProCab throttle. You lose the ammmeter and all the other PowerCab-specific functionality. So you didn't expand the Powercab with the SB5, you replaced it's command station, booster and power supply with the SB5.
OTOH, when you add a booster to the Zephyr, you can STILL use the Zephyr as a command station without losing any functionality, and you can STILL use the Zephyr's booster output (in addition to the output of the booster you just added) to power the layout.
As far as the NCE-USB interface's limitations, if you follow the link I posted, instead of trying to divert attention to the Power Pro's serial interface, you can read what the JMRI developers, and not me, have to say about it.
Oh, any by the way, that Power Pro serial interface doesn't echo throttle commands. So depending on what you're trying to do with JMRI or another software package, even it has a limitation that would need a work-around (unlike any of the LocoNet interfaces on the market).
Your walk-around vs. stationary argument is a red herring, too. Re-read the OP's reply to gregc's suggestion of the NCE DCC Twin - He didn't discount the idea of starting out with a stationary DCC system, and in fact mentions that he now has another choice to consider.
Fred
I purchased a copy of Basic DCC Wiring for Your Model Railroad: A beginner's guide to decoders, DCC Sytems and layout wiring, by Mike Polsgrove. I have no idea how much power or how many throttles I will need in time, so I need a system I can expand on if or when I need to.
When I looked at the Digitrax Zephyr before I didn't read or understand all the detail of future functions, so I was under the impression that all the controls would be stationary like a traditional DC layout. I was glad find out about loconet expansion and a full list throttles to choose from.
As for turnouts, I more than like have to buy dual gauge turnout kits and make my own. But this is later in the list of things to do, maybe with in a year I will start making a summit helper yard. Getting to this stage will be challenging enough, and I look forward to finding out what kind of multiple train operator I am.
I don't understand your concern about future upgrades with the Zephyr. Digitrax is probably the most upgradable of the bunch. With the "Z" you can use your DC system as a jump throttle, but the better idea would be to just add Digitrax throttles. You can add several. It will easily run the number of trains you mentioned, even with multiple engines in the consists. No booster required. If, in the future, you expand a booster is easily added.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
travel1903 In the past I've gotten some great information here; however, I've not yet taken the PLUNGE into DCC. I put together a couple of test layouts just to run some trains, but now I've started the frame work for a 6'X10' walk around with a dual gauge main-line that loops over itself once. Effectively my main line will be roughly 2-3 as long as most 4'X8' starter layouts. Also my rough math tells me that I will need a 3-5 amp booster to run 2 or 3 trains on the main line at once. My plan was to get the starter set first, test all my wiring, slowly put dcc decoders in my DC locomotives, then buy a booster a few months later for full operation. Is there anyone else who has done what I am about to do with any of these systems?
In the past I've gotten some great information here; however, I've not yet taken the PLUNGE into DCC. I put together a couple of test layouts just to run some trains, but now I've started the frame work for a 6'X10' walk around with a dual gauge main-line that loops over itself once. Effectively my main line will be roughly 2-3 as long as most 4'X8' starter layouts. Also my rough math tells me that I will need a 3-5 amp booster to run 2 or 3 trains on the main line at once. My plan was to get the starter set first, test all my wiring, slowly put dcc decoders in my DC locomotives, then buy a booster a few months later for full operation.
Is there anyone else who has done what I am about to do with any of these systems?
You mentioned "dual gauge" main line? Would this be O/On30 or HO/HOn3 - or am I misunderstanding what you said? If it is truly dual gauge with a shared common rail, single mode - single DCC command station and booster for both gauges, or in DC same block for both gauges - prevents a lot of problems.
I just made the plunge myself - I got tired of borrowing other people's throttles and locomotives at our modular club setups. Since the club uses NCE - as wired, the modules will do Digitraxx and other systems as well as NCE by substituting equipment - choice of the NCE Power Cab was a no-brainer. The Power Cab plugs right into any module's jacks and powers up automatically as another throttle on the club's Power Pro system.
At home, with all of my locos without decoders - I'm working on my first conversion - I'm installing a toggle to select the Power Cab OR my DC throttle. The only caution is that all decoderless locos have to be removed from the layout before selecting Power Cab - not a big chore in my case. With the Zephyr, you would be able to control one moving DC locomotive in addition to the DCC locomotives. DC locomotives cannot be left standing for more than a few minutes (less for my HOn3 locos with coreless motors) with DCC on the tracks, so I don't see a huge advantage for the Zephyr in my case.
Another area that needs clarification - you mention 2-3 trains on the main at once. From both my DC background, and DCC operations on the club modular layouts, I am very much a one operator per train believer. Do you have those extra operators? Or are you really good enough to juggle 3 trains on a single throttle (I'm not)?
The point is that if you have more than one operator, eventually - and likely sooner - you will want to expand your base DCC system beyond the starter set. For NCE, you will need additional throttles. Assuming HO or smaller engines, 2 more throttles for your operators to match up with your trains will do the trick. You install some jacks around the layout for the additional walk-around throttles. The only limitation of the Power Cab is that the Power Cab cannot be unplugged and moved to another jack while operating, since it is the command station and booster as well as throttle. If you want to just use the Power Cab as a throttle, you add the Super Booster.
You mentioned walk-around layout and control, which means you will want a walk-around throttle to add to the Zephyr fairly quickly. While a DC throttle or similar device attached to the jump port will work, you will have to return to the Zephyr to change locos controlled or any other function beyond speed and direction. For walk-around control without returning to the Zephyr, a throttle bus (Loconet in Digitrax-speak) and additional Digitrax throttle(s) are needed - just like NCE extra throttles. The difference between the two is that NCE gives you limited walk-around control with the Power Cab by itself.
Questions that get overlooked when discussing walk-around control - how are you controlling your turnouts? How are you uncoupling and coupling? Are you planning on doing any switching? If all turnouts are controlled from a central panel, there is little point in investing in walk-around control unless you have a full-time tower operator aligning turnouts.
just my thoughts and experiences
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Picture Gorge & Western Ry (HO) none more picturesque!
Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Co (HOn3) Home of the Tall Cedars
At 2.5 amps my Zephyr will run 6 sound locos without any problem. Don't think you will need a booster for the 2-3 you will be running. The NCE at lesser amps will still run your 2-3 locos. The length of your main lines have nothing to do with the capacity of the power source needed, the number of locos in any given power district is the important factor. upgrades for the Zephyr, no problem. Believe you will be happy which ever unit you choose. Both are quality products.
travel1903 NCE Power Cab - 95% sure this is the way I'm going. MRC Prodigy Express or MRC Prodigy A2 Squared - not a lot of information about adding boosters and PC components later Digitrax Zephyr - very temped with the ability to still run DC for a short time, but I'm unsure about future upgrades
Here's my 2 cent's worth;
Oh, and those jump throttles for the Zephyr? Yes, a smooth, variable DC source is required. Like a 9v battery and a Radio-shack pot. You don't need to use a powerpack if you can wire a battery clip and a pot together.
travel1903
I chose the NCE Power Cab over the Digitrax products for one very simple reason - I am all thumbs! When I look at the Digitrax cabs with so many similar buttons my eyes glaze over. The NCE system has enough differentiation between buttons that I can use it quite easily, although I still have to read the function button labels to hit the right one if I want to actuate something other than the basic bell, horn, headlights etc.
If you have good hand-eye coordination then according to almost all reports on the forums, either would be a good choice.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
travel1903 Side note, are NCE and Digitrax produced in the USA?
Side note, are NCE and Digitrax produced in the USA?
betamaxDigitrax also offers a very broad line of accessories for their LocoNet bus. While NCE doesn't the the breadth and depth of product, they do put more effort into making their systems easy to use (compared to Digitrax). For a small layout the NCE system is fine, for larger, more complex layouts, Digtrax gets an advantage with LocoNet.
Thanks, this was some of the information I was hoping for. When I looked at the Digitrax Zephyr before I thought I would have to add smooth power packs to add throttles. And having the DC option (only in the beginning) would be nice. Even though my future layout will be mid-sized, I would like some features of large layouts.
Both NCE and Digitrax are good choices. Both have been in the DCC business from almost day one.
Both can be connected to a computer for additional features, like programming and the like, using the free JMRI suite of software tools.
Digitrax also offers a very broad line of accessories for their LocoNet bus. While NCE doesn't the the breadth and depth of product, they do put more effort into making their systems easy to use (compared to Digitrax). For a small layout the NCE system is fine, for larger, more complex layouts, Digtrax gets an advantage with LocoNet.
gregc have you considered the NCE DCC Twin, or do you think you'll need more than 2 cabs?
have you considered the NCE DCC Twin, or do you think you'll need more than 2 cabs?
I've seen that, and I don't know at this time. At first my dcc layout will be extremely plain and most likely a waste of technology. However, I will more than likely add decoders to passenger cars, run mulitple short trains with double headers once get used to it, and have four wired ports to move cabs around for future yards and industry switching. So a little over-kill at the beginning might pay off, or so I have been told.
Thanks, I guess I might be looking at a fourth system.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I am a strictly DC user,,,but from my understanding,a NCE Power cab would be my first choice,,,as for a booster,,,not necessary on that size layout...
Cheers,
Frank
Hi All
In the past I've gotten some great information here; however, I've not yet taken the PLUNGE into DCC. I put together a couple of test layouts just to run some trains, but now I've started the frame work for a 6'X10' walk around with a dual gauge main-line that loops over itself once. Effectively my main line will be roughly 2-3 as long as most 4'X8' starter layouts. Also my rough math tells me that I will need a 3-5 amp booster to run 2 or 3 trains on the main line at once. My plan was to get the starter set first, test all my wiring, slowly put dcc decoders in my DC locomotives, then buy a booster a few months later for full operation. The three entry systems I have looked at the most are:
Thanks in advance