I am building my first HO layout larger than 4'x8'. It will be a one deck shelf layout around the walls approx. 12'x12' with a duckunder (hope to change to a liftout later). I have an original Digitrax Zephyr and a wireless throttle and associated accessories.
I) Bus wires: #14 ok? stranded or solid wire?
2) Most economical source for suitcase connectors? Can they be removed and reused?
3) How many DCC/sound locomotives should I be able to run simultaneously without adding a booster?
All help is appreciated
#14 should be fine, assuming you put the Zephyr around midway between the gap you will have when there is a liftout installed. That makes each run no more than 24'. My layout is similar size, and #14 is working fines.
If you are going to use suitcase connectors, get the real 3M ones. More expensive but at least they tend to work. Reuse? forget about it. If you want economical, a $20 Klein stripper, a $20 soldering gun, and you're all set.
I once ran as many as 8 locos on my Zephyr, but I ran out of space. I didn;t have enough throttles to control them all so I was like a one-armed paperhanger trying to keep them from runnign in to one another. I suspect I could have put on another one or two if I had room. 4 of the 8 had sound decoders. No problems.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Geno693) How many DCC/sound locomotives should I be able to run simultaneously without adding a booster?
It is surprising how little power the new locos need. Although you have to take into account the grades if any, and how many cars you are pulling. I have tested two double headed 5 car trains (4 sound engines) and had an SW8 sitting on track with sound on. My Power Cab was able to handle my 1% to 2% grades without complaint so on my 5' by 28' table that's all the power I need.
O course it's kind of like a car, how much power is too much?
Power to the people!!!
Lee
Geno69 I am building my first HO layout larger than 4'x8'. It will be a one deck shelf layout around the walls approx. 12'x12' with a duckunder (hope to change to a liftout later). I have an original Digitrax Zephyr and a wireless throttle and associated accessories. I) Bus wires: #14 ok? stranded or solid wire? 2) Most economical source for suitcase connectors? Can they be removed and reused? 3) How many DCC/sound locomotives should I be able to run simultaneously without adding a booster? All help is appreciated
#14 solid is common house wire, available new or used for a good price. Cheaper than lamp cord. Electrically, it's over kill, the stuff is rated to carry 15 amperes as house wire. But it is mechanically rugged, you cannot nick it with wire strippers, and it's easy to get.
Avoid the next larger size, #12, 'cause it is so stiff it is hard to work with.
Far as I am concerned, you only need #16 to make a good bus, but since I had plenty of #14 left over from a remodel job, my bus is #14.
Electrically, solid and stranded work about the same, at least at power frequencies. Stranded costs a little more and is flexible and less likely to break from repeated bending. A bus doesn't suffer repeated bending, so solid works just fine.
I've never seen a really economical source for suitcase connectors. Plus I have a deep seated distrust of insulation displacement connectors of every kind. I prefer solder joints. If you stagger the feeder wire connections so they won't touch each other, you don't even have to insulate the joints.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
OH, forgot to mention, I use stranded wire for the bus. It's WAY easier to work with. My previous layotu had #12 - even #12 is easily pulled around under the benchwork when it's standed. #12 solid - forget it.
yankee flyerIt is surprising how little power the new locos need. Although you have to take into account the grades if any, and how many cars you are pulling.
LION is running eight locomotive (powered subway cars) and has yet to draw 2 amps.
Buying a 15 amp power supply was overkill, but I did not know that at the time.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
dstarr#14 solid is common house wire, available new or used for a good price. Cheaper than lamp cord. Electrically, it's over kill, the stuff is rated to carry 15 amperes as house wire. But it is mechanically rugged, you cannot nick it with wire strippers, and it's easy to get.
Actually No. 14 is quite UNCOMMON for house wire. Common in older homes, I do not think that a modern electrical code will allow any wire smaller than 12 or a breaker smaller than 20A.
LION uses 12 and 14 solid wire for his railroad (whatever I can grab off the shelf in the power house), yes it is hard to bend, but then you do not need to do much bending.
LION mounts his wires right on the "sub-fascia", him needs not bend or thread: The finished fascia covers everything, yet can be removed for maintenance.
BroadwayLion dstarr#14 solid is common house wire, available new or used for a good price. Cheaper than lamp cord. Electrically, it's over kill, the stuff is rated to carry 15 amperes as house wire. But it is mechanically rugged, you cannot nick it with wire strippers, and it's easy to get. Actually No. 14 is quite UNCOMMON for house wire. Common in older homes, I do not think that a modern electrical code will allow any wire smaller than 12 or a breaker smaller than 20A.
Solid #14 copper wire is quite prevalent in home wiring, used with 15 amp circuits, the mainstay of most household service panels.
Rich
Alton Junction
It may be quite prevalent but I do not believe that modern building code would permit it in new construction. NFPA publishes a proprietary set of codes and standards which are then incorporated piecemeal into local building codes and laws, and so while codes vary across each jurisdiction, LION does not know of any place that allows 14 ga wire in new construction.
If you are connecting to a 15 amp fuse or breaker, then yes you must use at least 14 gauge wire, but 20A, and 25A branch service is now far more common. A 20A breaker requires at least 12 ga wire.
(LION is not an electrician and does not play one on TV)
Here in the Chicago area, the code certainly permits 14 ga solid copper wire on all 15 amp circuits and 12 ga solid copper wire on all 20 amp circuits. New construction continues to use 15 amp circuits and 14 ga. wire for most rooms in the house including bedrooms, dens, family rooms, living rooms, dining rooms, etc. And, it remains standard practice to use 15 amp circuits and 14 ga wire even in bathrooms and kitchens except where upgrades to 20 amp circuits and 12 ga wire is specified by the general contractor or architect.
BroadwayLion It may be quite prevalent but I do not believe that modern building code would permit it in new construction. NFPA publishes a proprietary set of codes and standards which are then incorporated piecemeal into local building codes and laws, and so while codes vary across each jurisdiction, LION does not know of any place that allows 14 ga wire in new construction. If you are connecting to a 15 amp fuse or breaker, then yes you must use at least 14 gauge wire, but 20A, and 25A branch service is now far more common. A 20A breaker requires at least 12 ga wire. (LION is not an electrician and does not play one on TV) ROAR
Lion has a point. Around here most (all?) new construction is indeed 12 gauge branch circuits with 20 amp breakers. Whether this is due to code requirements or customer's desire to plug in ever more appliances I don't know. I don't due new construction myself. I just do the odd bit of work around the house. How ever there are far more older houses with 14 gauge wire and 15 amp breakers than there is new construction. So 14 gauge wire is stocked at Home Despot and Lowe's and turns up used often enough after a remodeling job.
richhotrain Here in the Chicago area, the code certainly permits 14 ga solid copper wire on all 15 amp circuits and 12 ga solid copper wire on all 20 amp circuits. New construction continues to use 15 amp circuits and 14 ga. wire for most rooms in the house including bedrooms, dens, family rooms, living rooms, dining rooms, etc. And, it remains standard practice to use 15 amp circuits and 14 ga wire even in bathrooms and kitchens except where upgrades to 20 amp circuits and 12 ga wire is specified by the general contractor or architect. Rich
While 14AWG is rated for 15A (at 60Hz), the rules are that you cannot draw more than 80% of the rated current, etc. Load calculations are done, and other factors come into play to determine the correct wire gauge for that application.
While people like to say 14AWG is good for 15 A, that is using a 60Hz sine wave. DCC is just a little different.
dstarr Lion has a point. Around here most (all?) new construction is indeed 12 gauge branch circuits with 20 amp breakers. Whether this is due to code requirements or customer's desire to plug in ever more appliances I don't know. I don't due new construction myself. I just do the odd bit of work around the house. How ever there are far more older houses with 14 gauge wire and 15 amp breakers than there is new construction. So 14 gauge wire is stocked at Home Despot and Lowe's and turns up used often enough after a remodeling job.
Probably an attempt to save money by reducing the number of circuits needed.
betamaxProbably an attempt to save money by reducing the number of circuits needed.
Codes have changed over time and various 20 amp circuits are now required for things like GFI outlets in bathrooms, or dedicated appliance outlets, but other lights and outlets may not be on the same circuits. Take a look at new construction service panels and the number of single-purpose circuits has, if anything, increased the total number of breakers and wire runs.
A 15 amp circuit is still permissible for quite a number of things and 14 AWG wire is still used in new construction for circuits not required to be 20-amp or more.
Rob Spangler
Geno69...suitcase connectors? Can they be removed and reused?
Yes they can. My old layout was wired using 3M Scotchlok 567 connectors. I managed to recycle nearly all of them for my current layout and they worked perfectly well. These are designed for 12 AWG with smaller taps. If you want to use 14 AWG for the bus you'd need different connectors. I've done plenty of crawling around under layouts soldering, and I appreciate how IDCs eliminate much of that work.
Properly installed, good quality insulation displacement connectors are more than adequate for track bus wiring. IDCs get a bad rap in automotive and aircraft applications where they suffer from vibration, moisture and/or dust.
Instead of suitcase connectors, I highly recommend Posi-Tap connectors. They are very fast and easy to install and require no special tools. I have never had one fail. Currently, I am disassembling my layout. I will reuse the Posi-Taps, saving considerable expense.
John Timm
Bus wires? I use #12 solid (common rail and switch machine common return.) Granted that it's like installing brass tubing, but once in place it stays where it was put.
My preference for electrical connections that are either soldered or made at terminals with screw threads is well documented in these forums. I absolutely, positively refuse to allow suitcase or posi-tap connectors any place in my layout room except the trash can.
The best way to find out what your local electrical code does or doesn't allow is to drop in on your local (city or county) building inspectors and ask. There were considerable differences between codes in the three places I did that. (In Tennessee I could build a low concrete block wall without getting a permit. In North Las Vegas I had to build to an approved design suitable for the shoulder of a freeway - with permit and inspections.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with bulletproof electricals)
Thanks to all for your assistance. You answered all my questions and some I didn't even know to ask.