I am about to leave on another business trip tomorrow, but thought I would quick drop some pics in here. The table is really rough, but the double oval is in place, with two double cross-overs.
Train Table:
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w658/fisch050/TrainTable_zps37f85ecf.jpg
Double Crossing (a bit fuzzy) (wires need to be routed under the table still):
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w658/fisch050/IMG_20130907_122607_755_zps2fbc5dc6.jpg
When I get a moment, I will try yo post a schematic of the wiring, as well as some additional details.
Fisch,,
Good to hear from you,,,,,sometimes old farts,,,myself included,,think everyone is retarded,,,(I mean retired) some have other important things first..
Cheers,
Frank
I'm not dead yet. I'm wrapping up two projects at work, and have been traveling as a result. Sad to say, but real life has been interfering with model railroading.
Rich,
How long should I hold myself??
Yes!!! And I see you added,, http:// to it,,,Thanks..
Frank, get a hold of yourself.
Is this the one?
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/219427.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1
Rich
Alton Junction
Yeah !! Your right,,,,,but maybe,,the OP will find it helpful,,from the new thread,if he reads it..
I don't know why,that link I put in there don't work,,,unless you have to start off with,http://,,Do you have an idea?? I'm batting 50/50,with the links,I'm posting..PM me if you do..
Chhers,
zstripe To Be Continued;;;;; Cheers, Frank
To Be Continued;;;;;
LOL
I don't think so, Frank.
Fisch came and went like a thief in the night !
Fisch, glad to hear that you got the layout working. How much easier it would have been with Insulfrog turnouts!
I cannot help but wondering what your longer term plans are for the layout. Running two trains at the same speed, controlled by one DC power pack, is going to get old fast. At least with two power packs and a bit of block control, you could run the two trains independently. Of course, if you converted to a basic DCC system, you could run the trains independently and without any block control system. And, as that layout gets larger, you will face additional issues. What is your long term plan?
Fisch,
Really glad to hear,that all is well,,,even if it did take 5 pages,,,,but now,you know,,probably picked up a lot more than you bargained for,,,but what the heck..
I wired it per Frank and Randy's recommendation, and per the diagrams posted. I have not added the feeder wires yet, although that hasn't seemed to matter yet, probably because I tested with my longest engines. Adding the insulated joins was a MAJOR pain in the neck! Literally! My neck is still hurting! I had to completely pull the entire crossing apart to replace the 8 conductive metal joins with insulated joins. The Peco insulated joins are clear nylon, and are almost completely invisible.
I have reassembled the crossing, and am happy to report that you guys are geniuses.
The buzzing problem is now all gone, and the trains run smoothly from inside to outside and back again. Awesome!
I will try to put some more documentation up. Although it took us a while to get to the conclusion, this thread has some really helpful and useful information in it on wiring. I've learned a lot!
Thank again for all of your assistance! You guys are awesome!
As '' Ja Bear'' would say,my two Bobs worth...That is exactly how the diagram he had was drawn,,,why it was never tested,,,I can't answer.....One more thing,,,it has become increasingly clear that, a lot of people,for some reason,don't like to read....
MisterBeasley I'm guessing that you are using some model of power-routing turnouts. What you probably need is insulators on rails diverging from the frogs, and power feeders to the tracks beyond.
I'm guessing that you are using some model of power-routing turnouts. What you probably need is insulators on rails diverging from the frogs, and power feeders to the tracks beyond.
With Svein's comment in mind, I went back and read through this entire thread.
With minimal information, Mister Beasley resolved the issue with the very first reply.
It could have ended right there. Kudos to Mr. B.
Svein Lots of great advice here, but I think you guys are making it sound much more complicated than it actually is.
Lots of great advice here, but I think you guys are making it sound much more complicated than it actually is.
Svein, that's because you have presented a much more elegant view of the solution.
Very nicely done.
In our defense, though, it took awhile to realize that the OP was using electrofrog turnouts and an insulfrog crossing. Part of the problem was that, as a new forum member, the OP's posts were being moderated, and slow to be posted, by the moderator.
Content removed due to a completely frak'ed up and incompetent Kalmbach customer service.
These two illustrations from the Southern Digital website, http://www.sodigi.com/electrofrog.htm, show the power routing effect of the Peco Electrofrog. The first illustration is the straight through route, and the second illustration is the divergent route. If you imagine four right and left turnouts, two each, connected together by an Insulfrog crossing, you can visualize the required gapping and the resulting feeder wire connections.
If the bottom loop is continuous, no more Electrofrog turnouts between the two shown, it is OK. Another pair of feeders on the lower right wouldn;t hurt though. The top right siding will have poor or no power without another set of feeders over there. The jumpers shown are sufficient to power past the gaps in the frog rails. What's gapped at teh frog of one turnout leading to the crossing is connected to the solid rail diverging side of the opposite turnout, so there should be power through the crossing area.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
zstripe rrinker That last drawing should work. I believe,,I said that back in page,2 or 3,,but the OP, never said if he tried it or not.. Cheers, Frank
rrinker That last drawing should work.
That last drawing should work.
I believe,,I said that back in page,2 or 3,,but the OP, never said if he tried it or not..
Yeah, I agree, the 8 gaps shown in that drawing are needed to deal with the power routing issues.
As far as feeders are concerned, the OP may need more feeder wires than the few shown in the diagram, but that will become obvious as he tries to run trains on that setup.
If you use insulated joiners you don;t also have to cut the rails. The advantage of cutting the rails instead of using insulated joiners is that you cna put gaps where you need them, not just a rail joints, except in this case we want them right at the turnout anyway. It's the other way around - when you cut gaps in the rail with a Dremel it's advisable to fill the gap with something to prevent the gap from closing unexpectedly if the rail moves - a problem caused by a gap closing can be very hard to track down, especially if you've cleaned up the cut area nicely. it can be hard to see if it closes up. Some people find the insulated joiners to be unsightly - like the Atlas N scale ones that were bright orange, and one brand I remember from back in the day in HO was white, probably Atlas as well. The new Atlas HO ones are clear, not sure about Peco's.
Too bad that the OP bought electrofrog turnouts. Had he simply purchased insulfrog turnouts for his track plan, there would be no problems.
As a side note;
My experience with Peco Electro Frog turnouts is limited,I will freely admit and I choose Atlas turnouts for ease of installing,my experience with original Shinohara turnouts,is not limited..
Fisch richhotrain Where did you get them? Rich I hope I'm not violating any forum rules, but since you asked: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/N-Scale-Code-80-Track-s/1451.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=1451&show=30&page=1&brand=Peco
richhotrain Where did you get them? Rich
Where did you get them?
I hope I'm not violating any forum rules, but since you asked:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/N-Scale-Code-80-Track-s/1451.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=1451&show=30&page=1&brand=Peco
Nah, you're not breaking any rules.
MB Klein is an outstanding vendor with a superb Customer Service Department.
I would encourage you to call them tomorrow and explain the situation. Ask if you can exchange the four electrofrog turnouts for insulfrog turnouts. Chances are they will work out an exchange with you.
Since the crossing that you have is an insulfrog, if you put the insulfrog turnouts in place, you will not need to gap any rails, and the wiring will be simple because the insulfrog turnouts are not power routing.
Fisch richhotrain Fisch, any chance that you can return the electrofrog turnouts and crossing and replace them with insulfrogs? Rich I've thought about that. Unfortunately, I am outside of the return window. $16.09 x 8 = $128.72 + S&H, which is a bit pricey to replace all 8 turnouts. A few insulating joiners would be cheaper, although I may not have much hair left by the time it is all said and done...
richhotrain Fisch, any chance that you can return the electrofrog turnouts and crossing and replace them with insulfrogs? Rich
Fisch, any chance that you can return the electrofrog turnouts and crossing and replace them with insulfrogs?
I've thought about that. Unfortunately, I am outside of the return window. $16.09 x 8 = $128.72 + S&H, which is a bit pricey to replace all 8 turnouts. A few insulating joiners would be cheaper, although I may not have much hair left by the time it is all said and done...
rrinker If the crossing you used in the middle of all that is also an Electrofrog - here is a link to an article that shows how to wire it (from the April 2005 MR): http://ehis.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?sid=d2293e67-5355-4a02-b160-a2c9a85ff253%40sessionmgr113&vid=1&hid=105&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=f5h&AN=15984903 On the turnouts, gap the two inner rails (the ones that come together to form the frog point). On the crossing, same thing. Any track between those insulated joiners needs to have feeders run to it. If the turnout and the crossing directly connect, you don't need any more feeders but you will probably need to power the frogs on the crossing for reliable operation. --Randy
If the crossing you used in the middle of all that is also an Electrofrog - here is a link to an article that shows how to wire it (from the April 2005 MR): http://ehis.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?sid=d2293e67-5355-4a02-b160-a2c9a85ff253%40sessionmgr113&vid=1&hid=105&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=f5h&AN=15984903
On the turnouts, gap the two inner rails (the ones that come together to form the frog point). On the crossing, same thing. Any track between those insulated joiners needs to have feeders run to it. If the turnout and the crossing directly connect, you don't need any more feeders but you will probably need to power the frogs on the crossing for reliable operation.
The crossing is an insulfrog (see below). Does this look right to you?
Peco information:
ST-7 Crossing (Insulfrog): http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Track-templates/c80/ST-7.pdf
SL-E395/E396 Electrofrog Switches: http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Track-templates/c80/SL-395%20&%20SL-396.pdf
It really really should just work if the rails off the frogs are insualted. I went back to the beginning and saw that the crossing is a Setrack piece - hmm, I think those are insualted frogs, like an Atlas.
So, insulate the two rails on each turnout that go together to make the frog.
Assuming the mains go left to right on the page, with the X of the crossing in the middle:
Rail on straight leg of two bottom turnouts: Feeder A
Rail on diverging side of lower left turnout: Feeder B
Rail between LL diverging and crossing: Feeder B
Rail on straight leg between frogs of lower turnouts: Feeder B
Diverging frog rail of LL turnout to crossing: Feeder A
Diverging frog rail of lower RIGHT turnout to crossing: Feeder A
rail on diverging side of LR turnout - Feeder B
Rail between LR diverging and crossing: Feeder B
Straight rail between two UPPER turnouts: Feeder B
Diverging side of upper left turnout: Feeder A
Diverging side of UP turnout to crossing: Feeder A
Frog rail of UR turnout to crossing: Feeder B
Rail between frogs of upper turnouts: Feeder A
Frog rail of upper RIGHT turnout to crossing: Feeder B
Diverging side of upper right turnout" Feeder A
Diverging side of upper right turnout to crossing: Feeder A
That should be all the proper polarities. It will still short if the opposing turnouts are not both lined the same way - say upper right is set to straight through, and lower left is set to go over the crossing - it will short when a train crosses the gaps.But if both turnouts are lined to cross over, it will work, or if both turnouts are lined to go straight through, it will work.