I have a cross-over switch set up. I have tried a dozen ways to get a picture uploaded, but I guess that's just not likely to happen. If it shows up in the layouts gallery, I will provide a link to it.
I have an oval loop, with a cross-over to a spur, sort of like this:
==\==/== Spur X==/==\== Loop
I can't get both tracks to be electrified at all times, which is what I want. I can get the spur to be electrified only if all the switches are set to a certain position (all switches "open").
I tried running a connecting wire from rail to rail, but all that did was change the needed switch configuration to get the tracks to work.
I either have a working track, or I get a buzzing noise from my DC controller.
Any ideas on what I need to do to get the wiring on this to work correctly? Again, the goal is to have both sets of track electrified at all times.
What kind of turnouts do you have, and how are you operating them? That is, are they Atlas, Walthers, Peco, or whatever, and are you powering them with ground throws, twin-coil machines or Tortoises?
I'm guessing that you are using some model of power-routing turnouts. What you probably need is insulators on rails diverging from the frogs, and power feeders to the tracks beyond.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Fisch I either have a working track, or I get a buzzing noise from my DC controller.
Fisch,
What kind of DC controller? Is the buzzing noise,from it,or the switch machine? In any event,either you created a short,or it's wired wrong...Like has already been mentioned,,,,we need more info..
Cheers,
Frank
Try this thread for picture posting instructions:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/181001.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Wow. So many replies!
Yesterday's post turned into a comedy of errors. I got distracted by the whole photo thing, and forgot to add some information I had intended to provide. Then it was my first post, and had to go to a moderator, so I couldn't edit it, and, well, you get the picture...
OK. More details:
I am running primarily Peco Code 80 N-scale nickle-silver track. My crossing is comprised of the following Peco track:
2 x Peco SL-E396 Electrofrog Medium Radius Left Hand
2 x Peco SL-E395 Electrofrog Medium Radius Right Hand
1 x Peco Setrack ST-7 25 degree Short Crossing
2 x Peco flex track, cut to size for the straight pieces
Right now, as mentioned, I have an outer loop and an inner spur. I would like to end up with an outer loop and an inner loop, with the ability to cross over from one loop to the other, regardless of train direction. I want to be able to simultaneously run a train on the inner loop, and a train on the outer loop.
When I was a boy (back in the 1980's), I had an N-scale train set with a similar layout, so I know this can be done - I just don't know how!
I have one DC power supply. It is an MRC Tech II LocoMotion 2500.
The buzzing noise seems to be coming from the switch closest to the power supply. The power supply is connected to the outer loop rail.
I'll see what I can do to get pictures up.
And (hopefully) here is a picture:
2289047.aspx
First, if you want to run a train on each loop, independent of each other, you will need to insulate the loops from each other and use two power packs. Atlas makes a electrical switch unit called a Selector, which allows you to choose which power pack runs which line.
An Atlas track book will give you information on how to do the wiring. I would put insulators where the leg of the turnouts on one loop, where they connect to the track leading to the crossing. I would also put insulators between the turnouts on each loop and at the center of the curves on the loop. That would give you three blocks on each loop, so that you could throw the electrical switches, so the train can remain controlled by the same power pack as it changes loops, while the other train awaits its turn to crossover to the other loop.
If you only have one double crossover, your trains will have to either run in the same direction or will have to back across the crossover to prevent head-ons. If you have two double crossovers you can easily have two trains running in opposite direction.
I do suggest you get a Alas track book, it gives you good illustrations of many track laying possibilities.
Good luck,
Richard
Thank you for the information. I see I left out some details.
I do not need to run the trains independently. I am fine with both trains being controlled by one power pack/power supply. This is partly because I don't want to purchase another power supply (budgetary constraints), and partly because, at some point, I would like to convert to DCC.
I do intend to have 2 double crossovers, to alleviate the issue you mentioned.
When I was 10, for my birthday, my Dad gave me an N-scale train, mounted on a 4x6 piece of plywood, and put together by an enthusiast friend of his. I spent a lot of time over the next 10 years, working on the scenery, running the trains, and generally having fun with it. He got me interested and hooked on model trains. I'm trying to do the same for my now 10-year old son. But I need to give him a working track, as he is not yet old enough to do the track layout himself.
I hope this helps to explain some of the restrictions I am working within, and some of the design choices I have made.
Thanks again for your assistance with this!
I found this picture:
In this thread:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/219077.aspx
Do you think this will solve my problems? Four insulated joins per turnout section?
First off,,I would highly recommend,that you purchase a book as suggested,by another poster..The Atlas books are OK,,,but they are based on common rail wiring,using their products,if you want to go that route fine..To go the other route,without common rail,,is a better option,,but it entails much different wiring knowledge,,then you appear to have at this point..The buzzing sound from the switch machine,sounds like the switch is already thrown,,wiring issue,I'm sure..And you will need another power pack,to do what you want..Get a book,,please and study it..
Frank wants you to learn how to fish.
Richard just caught the fish and handed it to you.
Now, the problem is that you need to learn how to eat the fish.
Get the Atlas book on wiring.
Once you learn some wiring techniques, you can wire up all kinds of track variations.
Rich
Alton Junction
Fisch, as a new forum member, the moderator must be slowing up the posting of your replies.
Your two most recent replies, and the diagram you posted, showed up after all of our other recent replies.
If you don't care about operating two trains independently, then you don't need any insulated gaps in your track work. I suspect that your wiring problem, and the resulting continuity problem, is attributable to the use of electrofrog turnouts, as opposed to insulfrog turnouts.
Have you tried adding wires to all four ends of the crossing?
Rich - You are correct. Every post has had to be approved by a moderator. I posted my replies last night, immediately after the reply came in.
I have run 2 wires, but not four. I will give that a try.
Thank you!
if you look at the crossing, there are 4 ends, two rails on each end.
Try connecting a wire to each rail on the crossing, a total of 8 wires, and be sure to maintain proper polarity.
Rich,
Thank you for your reply. Let me see if I understand you correctly. Does this picture look correct to you? 8 wires to each of the points? Blue is "A" polarity, Red is "B" polarity.
With the Mods sticking your posts in,,after someone already answered,got me screwed up,,,now that I know what your doing,,,your proposed wiring looks OK,,don't permanently fix all the wires yet,,test it first,,Make sure you use,A,wire,one color and B,wire one color and stick to it.
Let us know how it works and if it does.
Fisch Rich, Thank you for your reply. Let me see if I understand you correctly. Does this picture look correct to you? 8 wires to each of the points? Blue is "A" polarity, Red is "B" polarity.
Yes, but place the wire connections at the ends of the crossing where it connects to the turnouts.
Rich - I'm sure what you're saying is absolutely brilliant, but I can't seem to quite grasp it. I feel like I am missing something blindingly obvious, but haven't any idea what it might be. At least the emoticons are fun...
For those that are wondering, here is what I have tried so far. I probably didn't write some attempts down, and I tried most of these multiple times, just in case I had a loose wire or something. No change in results.
Also, if anyone wants to use the template for whatever reason, here that is, too.
Place your wiring at the points shown in the photo, making sure to match the polarities correctly.
Check for continuity with a volt meter or a 12 volt light bulb.
It may be the electrofrog turnouts that are causing your problem.
There should be no insulated gaps on the rails.
I am assuming that there are no reverse loops on your layout.
Thank you for the diagram. Apparently, the ST-7 is already wired that way, because I get the same results both with and without the wires.
I will continue to test different possibilities, and will report back on my results. I know this can be done, because I have seen it done before.
The diagram that Rich,showed,with the blue and red dots,,,put them at the point ends of the turnout and no other wiring....
Fisch I found this picture: In this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/219077.aspx Do you think this will solve my problems? Four insulated joins per turnout section?
Did you try this arrangement at all?? I'm curious,it does make sense to me,,If you didn't try it, wire it just like it shows,,forget the crossover for now,,if it works,,wire the other the same way..you can still have the crossover,,but it should make no difference,it looks to be already insulated..
Fisch Thank you for the diagram. Apparently, the ST-7 is already wired that way, because I get the same results both with and without the wires. I will continue to test different possibilities, and will report back on my results. I know this can be done, because I have seen it done before.
If you wired the crossing per the photo, and it is not working, describe in detail what is happening.
It is not clear to us what problems you are experiencing.
Is there no power on certain sections of track, or are there shorts?
Have you done continuity tests?
The light bulb test?Rich
I have a feeling,his rail joiners,have a role in this,,not passing power..
zstripe Rich, I have a feeling,his rail joiners,have a role in this,,not passing power.. Cheers, Frank
Maybe, but I think it is the electrofrog turnouts.
He may just need more wiring on the ends of the power routing turnouts.
Yeah,,it's hard to help,without feedback,,,just saying it don't work,,,somewhere,you need,,,a why??Or what happened..Hang in there buddy,,,I don't want to go nut's alone...LOL..
Heh. I'm not crazy yet. But I'm working on it...
I will try to describe what is happening.
With no wires:
If the outer-loop switches are thrown so that the train runs straight through (on the outer loop), then everything works fine, although there is no power on the inner spur. When the outer-loop switches are in this configuration (straight-through), the setting of the switches on the inner spur make no difference. I presume this is due to the lack of power.
If the switches are thrown for a cross-over, then power goes to both the outer loop and the inner spur, and everything runs fine. However, all switches must be in the cross-over mode. Both of the siwtches on the outer loop, and both of the switches on the inner spur.
If the switches are not in one of these two configurations (outer loop straight through, or all switches on cross-over), then one of the switches closest to the power pack buzzes, and nothing moves. I think the buzzing switch is the one on the outer loop, closest to the power pack.
Fonr instance, if I attempt to set one leg of the "X" in the cross-over for, well, crossing-over, then everything stops and the switch buzzes.
Things change with the addition of wires.
With wires:
Instead of both scenarios above working, only one does. Almost always, it is the cross-over scenario.
I have tested with my volt-meter. With one exception, I get continuity all the time on all rails (which surprised me), but the current passing through varies greatly. I tested with wires on the points, and no wires. The examples below are with no wires. The one exception is when the switches on the inner spur are in straight-through mode. Then rail "B" on the inside spur has no continuity (resistance = infinity). This, at least, seems to make sense.
For instance, with the outer loop in pass through mode, the continuity between rails A and B reads about 33 Ohms. The reading to anything inside the outer loop reads about 4-6 Ohms. Change the switch, and change the readings of the curent on the rails.
If you consider it helpful, I will test and document all the different switch positions, and post back. Work starts up again tomorrow, so it may take a few days to get all the testing and documenting done.
Quite frankly, I am not understanding these readings. They seem backward to me. For comparison, I checked my wires. They are solid copper. The wire I tested has a resistance of 0.7-0.8 Ohms..
I will also test the insulator connectors this week. I don't think I can wire the double-crossover up completely like the diagram, because I will have a short dead spot on my rails. One rail will, for the length of the cross-over, be between two insulator connectors.
Let me know if you have more questions. I will do my best to answer them. You guys are amazing! Your response has far exceeded my expections, and speaks (good) volumes about this community.
Thanks for all your assistance!
Fisc
Hope you get this before,you have to go..Instead of a using.OHMs,or a continuity test,,use a DC voltage test and record all your readings..I believe Rich Is correct,,it's your Electro Frog Turnouts and if at all possible,a rough sketch,of the rest of the track plan......God willing,,,I'll still be here,when you start again..
Seems to me that the best solution would be to exchange the four electrofrog turnouts for insulfrog turnouts. That would simplify the wiring, eliminate the need for rail gaps, and stop the intermitting shorting. But, of course, that would be an epensive solution unless the turnouts are new and can still be exchanged from the vendor.
If the OP needs to stay with the electrofrog turnouts, we need someone to step in here with some first hand experience working with and wiring electrofrog turnouts for DC operation.
It's not terribly difficult. You just need to gap all rails past each turnout and apply feeders of the proper polarity. It will still short if you try to cross over and one turnout is not lined properly, can't fix that, but that is why it is common to operate both turnouts with a single control, since if one is lined straing and the other lined to cross over, even if it didn't short, you'd put the train on the ground.
DC, DCC, it's all the same.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.