Awesome!
I know there was a thread a while back on the JMRI Yahoo Group about the Loksound V4.0, trying to come upw ith a way to represent all those possible function definitions, which is why the definition currently looks liek it does, with just a ton of boxes basically replicating the chart in the manual - no real 'simplification' as commonly seen in JMRI. I can see the merit in limiting optiosn to those commonly used,which woudl suit us just fine, but then what about European users of JMRI and the decoders, where they don;t need F1 to be the Bell, so it ends up being the sound on/off. To effectively handle all teh settings in JMRI might require another pane that looks more like the page in Lokprogrammer - although even that is sort of spread across 3 sections when you combine the F key to sound slot mapping plus the F key to physical function output mapping plus the F key to action mapping.
The Loksound V4.0 is kind of liek the non=programmer equivalent of what the Digitrax decoders are - you can change literally EVERYTHING in the DIgitrax decoders, but you need to write code to the processor, not set CVs. Loksound V4 allows you to change pretty much everything about the decoder, by changing (a lot) of CVs instead of learning how to program the microcontroller.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Motley IT WORKS!!! IT WORKS!!! Ahhh much much better now.
IT WORKS!!! IT WORKS!!! Ahhh much much better now.
So, now that you have the sound adjusted such that it will not turn on until you press F8, what happens if you're running the engine and there is a momentary power disruption, such as a short?
Assuming that you don't touch the speed setting, when you get the power back does the loco continue to run with sound, or do you have to press F8 to get the sound back???
Ahhhh Molsen is good beer too.
I had sent Hornby a tech support question. They responded on Friday, with "You can change it with a lok programmer, but without one, its going to be difficult."
I just now responded, with a nasty email stating that they made a bad decision the way they insisted wanted ESU to have the sound come on at startup, with no easy way to modify it.
I wonder why loksound just can't give a check box in JMRI for startup sounds. Just like QSI and Tsunami.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
That's great ! .... been holding my breath all day !
Cheers ! ....
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
As a Friend of Michael, here's to Mark and Randy.
Good work, guys.
Rich
Alton Junction
I owe you guys a bunch of these......
Thanks Mark and Randy for all the help!!!!
Ah, the old curveball trick - no wonder what we were seeing was not matching the outcome, sneakign in a custom programmed file!
Yes, to actually see any settings you need to download a V4.0 sound project and open that, then you see all the settings, even without having the Lokprogrammer hooked up. But then you will fall into the same trap - the settings Mark gave are absolutely correct - for the standard Loksound sound projects! The one in the Rivarossi is, as we now know, non-standard and uses different settings.
Good thing you didn;t ship the loco out, without the sound file I don;t think this could have easily been fixed.
Points out perhaps one of the dangers of having too much power - just because you CAN modify something doesn't mean you SHOULD. It just confuses people who then try to use your special customized item.
I'm gonna try this today, stay tuned fellas.
OK I will try everything you recommended Mark, and report back.
Thanks for hanging in there with me!
I was in my car heading to Canada, when I saw this and turned around. LOL
Michael - One other thing ....
Playing with CV 403 as we did earlier "might" have throw off whatever F4 controls. You should go back in and do the following ....
CV31 to 16, CV32 to 2 and then rest CV403 back to 0 - which is the factory default for that decoder. After playing with it earlier, it is probably now set to either 16 or 32 depending on where you left it. It may not be a problem, but why take a chance of something else not working as expected ?
maxman As an interested observer of this thread, I have a few questions. I have a Lokprogrammer which I connected to the computer to see if I could somehow simulate what you all are looking at. I told the programmer that I wanted to do something with a V4 decoder and it responded. However, looking through all the tab information, including the function outputs, I see nothing that appears to resemble what you are discussing. Is this one of those deals where you have to read the CVs from an actual decoder before you try to change anything? Or is it possible to simulate the decoder? You mention the factory file for the Rivarossi engine, but I did not find this in the list of files for V4 decoders on the ESU-USA website. Am I looking in the wrong place, or is it called something else? And where are you finding a clear description of what exactly each control CV does? I looked through the decoder manual and my head basically spun. Finally you had a discussion that went something like F8, but not F8. Are there differing definitions of F8 when used as a function button or something else. Thanks!!!!
As an interested observer of this thread, I have a few questions.
I have a Lokprogrammer which I connected to the computer to see if I could somehow simulate what you all are looking at. I told the programmer that I wanted to do something with a V4 decoder and it responded. However, looking through all the tab information, including the function outputs, I see nothing that appears to resemble what you are discussing.
Is this one of those deals where you have to read the CVs from an actual decoder before you try to change anything?
Or is it possible to simulate the decoder?
You mention the factory file for the Rivarossi engine, but I did not find this in the list of files for V4 decoders on the ESU-USA website. Am I looking in the wrong place, or is it called something else?
And where are you finding a clear description of what exactly each control CV does? I looked through the decoder manual and my head basically spun.
Finally you had a discussion that went something like F8, but not F8. Are there differing definitions of F8 when used as a function button or something else.
Thanks!!!!
You have to open an actual sound file in order to see how the decoder is set up.
The Rivarossi factory file is not online. It is owned by Hornby for their exclusive use. However, Matt has access to the ESU server and was able to pull up the file so we could see how it was configured.
That is one of the problems. There is no clear description of the mapping lines for each control CV. Not all decoders are mapped identically, so there isn't any definitive mapping for every decoder across the board. Steam works different than diesel. Diesels with multiple prime mover selections are mapped differently, etc. You REALLY need a programmer in order to decipher a lot of this, and even then it's not an easy process as the V4.0 decoder is an extremely complex piece of work.
With a project loaded into the programmer, go to Function Mapping. Click on the Conditions box that contains F8. This will give you a drop-box at the right end. In that drop box, go down to F8 where you see it has its own drop-box which contains ON / OFF / IGNORE. This is the change that we needed to make.
You will also notice that F8 is the tenth line down, which corresponds to the tenth function mapping line in the manual on page 52. By looking on page 53 in the manual, we see Control CV-C is what controls the parameters of F8. So, we take column CV-C and intersect with line 10 giving us CV403 to be a value of either 16 or 32 whether we want it on or off. The problem was, that the Rivarossi file has four additional mapping lines above F0 in the Function Mapping showing in the Programmer. These additional lines made it line 14 in the table, not 10 (which is where I went wrong the first go-around). Intersecting CV-C with line 14 gives us the correct CV to change which is CV467.
So, as you can tell, without access to the actual sound file, there's no possible way this could have been determined - mainly because the Rivarossi is programmed differently than anything else ESU does - so you can't even guess and hope to get it right manually.
To verify our findings, we did a spread-sheet of ALL the CV's straight from the factory file. We then changed the mapping line for F8 using the programmer, saved this and again printed out a spread-sheet. Comparing ALL the CV's before and after the one change, the only CV that changed was CV467 - from 32 to 16. This verified that we had the correct CV change and that this change using the Programmer affected no other CV's as well, which we needed to verify as sometimes a single function can affect more than one Control CV.
I had it right the first time based on a typical programmed ESU decoder (CV 403 works for the standard decoders) .... unfortunately, the Rivarossi decoder isn't programmed like a typical ESU decoder. The sad part ? In order to determine which CV's you need to manually change, you NEED a programmer in order to determine the mapping lines .... but if you have the programmer, you don't need to do it manually !!! Guess that's why we have these forums ....
Clear as mud, right ?
Ok Michael, if you haven't left for Canada yet, here's the answer ....
Set CV31 to 16. Then set CV32 to 2. Then set CV467 to 16. That should do it.
The problem was our deciphering of Control CV-C and the number of mapping lines. After looking at the factory file for your Rivarossi engine, it for some reason has four mapping lines above F0 than what is considered to be the norm. That's what initially had us looking at line 10 ( CV 403 ) when it should have been mapping line 14 which is CV 467. Without access to the factory file (lucky for us, Matt has this) there's no possible way we could have figured this out on our own.
Let us know how it works.
Mark R. Michael, just sit tight. Matt just called me back and he remembered getting a print-out on what CV's are required to make this change manually. I will post them here for you as soon as I get them. Mark.
Michael, just sit tight. Matt just called me back and he remembered getting a print-out on what CV's are required to make this change manually. I will post them here for you as soon as I get them.
Too late, Mark, Michael is in his car and on his way to Canada as we speak.
Motley Randy I'm in Denver. I guess I could just ship it to you and get this done.
Randy I'm in Denver. I guess I could just ship it to you and get this done.
I wonder if anybody at Caboose Hobbies or Ulrich Models could help you out?
How far are you from me in PA? I'd be willing to fire up my Lokprogrammer and give it a shot.
Crap ....
I've posed your dilemma over on the Loksound Yahoo Group as well, and by the sounds of things, I AM on the right track, but there is the possibility that a couple other parameters may need to be set as well. The 4.0 decoders are a VERY complex decoder and setting things like this can be very frustrating to figure them out manually.
As I said before, this would be a simple process to do with the programmer, but unless you can find someone with one to make the changes for you, it's not going to be an easy task. I'll put the offer out there to do it, but I doubt you'd want to ship your engine to Canada for programming !
Y
Mark R. Motley Meh its all right, I'm just gonna live with it. Did you try setting CV403 to 32 as well ? I'd like to know if that works before I invstigate any further. I'm wanting to get this to work more than you at this point ! Mark.
Motley Meh its all right, I'm just gonna live with it.
Meh its all right, I'm just gonna live with it.
Did you try setting CV403 to 32 as well ? I'd like to know if that works before I invstigate any further. I'm wanting to get this to work more than you at this point !
Mark,
Yes I set CV 31 and 32 (as previously mentioned), then immediately and also set CV403 = 32. And no change at all. Didn't work.
Michael, why give up now?
There is a solution. Take advantage of it.
Get that sucker working the way you want it.
Mark R. This is the unfortunate part of having to fine tune a very complex decoder manually. With the programmer, this could be solved in ten seconds - did it to my own engine a couple times to verify.
This is the unfortunate part of having to fine tune a very complex decoder manually. With the programmer, this could be solved in ten seconds - did it to my own engine a couple times to verify.
Michael, if Mark would be receptive to the idea, you ought to package up the loco and Fed Ex it to Mark to get it programmed on Lokprogrammer. Too bad that Lokprogrammer costs $155. You could simply buy it and program the decoder yourself.
Motley Craaaap, it didn't work. I set the CVs that Mark suggested, multiple times, still no luck. At this point I don't even care, I can live with the hiss sound or mute it manually. I adjusted the master volume so its not that obnoxious. The decision maker at Hornby needs to get his head examined.
Craaaap, it didn't work.
I set the CVs that Mark suggested, multiple times, still no luck.
At this point I don't even care, I can live with the hiss sound or mute it manually. I adjusted the master volume so its not that obnoxious.
The decision maker at Hornby needs to get his head examined.
Well, I did say either / or. Follow through the same process and try a value of 32 in CV 403. If that doesn't work, I don't know what to tell you right now.
I have a bunch of them I downloaded, all V4.0 project - Alco 244 for RS3, EMD 567 for F/GP, Cat for 44 tonner, and a couple others.
On Decoder, Function mapping, F8 has no settings across the board. If you go down to Information, Functions, F8 has the description "Volume control/mute", it has the black F in yellow circle icon, index is 2, moment and inverted are unchecked, and category is Physical.
I got prompted for a software update but I didn;t install it yet, so I'm on 4.3.3
rrinker Hmm, I opened up a few V4 projects in Lokprogrammer and they seem to have F8 assigned to nothing. F1 is assigned to a bell sound. Ah, under Information, Functions, it lists F8 as volume/mute. index 2, moment unchecked, inverted unchecked, and type set to Physical. Don't see where I actually change it to anything else though. --Randy
Hmm, I opened up a few V4 projects in Lokprogrammer and they seem to have F8 assigned to nothing. F1 is assigned to a bell sound. Ah, under Information, Functions, it lists F8 as volume/mute. index 2, moment unchecked, inverted unchecked, and type set to Physical. Don't see where I actually change it to anything else though.
Randy - WHAT file are you seeing those parameters ? F8 should have no physical outputs OR logical functions. It should only have control over one (possibly two) sound slots. Are you looking in the function mapping section of the 4.x.x programmer ? In the conditions drop box for F8, F8 should be set to ON as opposed to OFF or IGNORE. All other parameters for F8 should be set to IGNORE.