Been reading about some of the hobbie's icons layouts and am intrigued by third rail. I can clearly see how they mounted the rail, using Howell Day's Q-103 chairs. But where and how were the pickups attached to the loco's and other power using stock? If any of you out there who've been around long enough to know would clue me in on this, I'd be grateful. Not sure I'd want to go third rail in HO, but in O it seems right somehow.
Lou
Lou:
I would suggest that you post your question on the Classic Toy Trains forum as well. You will find a lot more expertise on 3 rail there, not that the Model Railroad forum members are dummies in this regard.
As for power pickup, 3 rail systems have both outside rails at the same polarity with the third (center) rail being the opposite polarity. My ancient O Scale Marx engines have a 'shoe' which slides on the center rail and the opposite polarity is picked up by the wheels on either side. Great visuals when running at night with all the sparks coming off the shoe!
One of the great things about this arrangement is that you don't need power reversing controls because the polarity never changes no matter where the locomotive is on the track.
Marklin made 3 rail HO systems a long time ago. Their more modern stuff is 2 rail, but I know little of which I speak. Others with more knowledge will no doubt chime in.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Outside third rail, which was more likely to be soldered to brass screws than to be mounted on 'store-boughten' mountings, was contacted by brass or bronze shoes, either paddle shaped or pieces of rod, which projected sideways from the frames of steam locos and tenders. Rapid transit and lighted passenger cars could have them mounted to the trucks. They were spring loaded down to a level below the normal third rail height and bent up at the ends to allow them to climb up onto the third rail at turnouts. The shoes and their springing had to be insulated from the frames.
Dave was apparently confusing outside third rail with center rail/stud contacts which run down the center of the ties between the running rails. Two very different systems. Center rail was originally toy train stuff, while the outside third rail was used by scale modelers. There were even a few outside third rail layouts in HO and OO pre-WWII. The downfall of the latter was the rather delicate balance of springing the shoes on such lightweight models.
Among the better-known outside third rail users were Frank Ellison and John Armstrong.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
LION has HO scale third rails, but they are dummies, as are the power pickups on the Proto 1000 subway cars. BUT... LION was thinking of a working third rails. Him thinks to drive brass nails into the roadbed outside of every 5th tie. Him thinks to solder a brass/steel 1/16th" welding rod to the tops of these nails. IS FAR CHEAPER than anything you could buy with model rail. Maybe sand the top with a motor tool to flatten it but probably not, him thinks the round shape would work better. It goes under the protection board. LION takes staple gun staples, breaks them apart and unbends one of the bends. that is driven into the road bed sot that the protection board placed on top of the nails would cover the third rail.
If you REALLY want to pick up power drill out a slot in the truck where the fuse protector is, and insert a 6 point printers' brass space so that it will reach the rail. How you arrange things from there you will have to work out for your self, as the LION has not tried it.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
hon30critterMarklin made 3 rail HO systems a long time ago. Their more modern stuff is 2 rail, but I know little of which I speak. Others with more knowledge will no doubt chime in.
Actually,
Marklin is still pumping out its two rail/center studs track and locomotives.
If you want it in two-rail/DC, Trix -- which Marklin acquired in 1999 -- offers most of the same models as Marklin offers in a more familiar DC form-factor.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Great thanks to all for your input so far. I could have been more specific about my question though, insofar as my asking about pickup location. I was thinking more of the fore/aft, left/right locations of pickups and specifically how gaps at turnouts and crossings were dealt with. I suppose two sets of pickups on both sides covering all 4 corners of a loco-tender combo would handle most situations. Sure do like the idea of no reversal concerns (at all) and easy signaling.
By the way, Lion, the Howell Day chairs I mentioned were designed to use HO code 100 rail. All you had to do was screw them in, run rail through them and gently squeeze them with pliers and the rail was clamped in place. No soldering! Of course those things would be as common as hen's teeth in todays market. Your brass rod and soldering scheme sounds workable.
I'm also toying with the idea of overhead wire and pantagraphs for the same advantages of third rail but with a more "mainline" look, ala Great Northern electrics. Bear in mind, I don't think I'd have the patience to do more than a switching layout with third rail or overhead.
I know this line of inquiry is out step with todays DCC world, so thanks for "all yall's" input.
P.S. Almost as soon as I posted this, I realized saying I don't have the patience to do too much with third rail or overhead wiring and then saying I'd like to do a switching layout (with all of it's overhead wire frogs or third rail gaps) was kind of oxymoronic. Maybe something a little less challenging. Pizza layout!
Overhead for pantographs doesn't use wire frogs. Those are only needed for wheel or shoe trolley poles.
That said, you could do what I've done and keep the overhead wires virtual. Just arrange the pantographs to ride at a constant height under the support arms/catenary bridges. This is a standard ploy among our Japanese brethren, to keep the spider web of overhead wires out of the way of the 0-5-0 when maintaining the puzzle palace of double slips at the end of a large passenger station. Power distribution is of the standard 2-rail variety.
Of course, during my prototype period the switching, even at stations with catenary over every track, was being done by brand-new DD13 class center-cab diesel-hydraulics. A few years earlier the switcher would have been a six-coupled coalburner, either a tank loco (C10/C11/C12 class,) a Mogul with a six-wheel tender (8620/C50/C56) or an ugly pit-bull Consolidation (9600 class,) also with a six-wheel tender.
And then there were the Pacific Electric diesel switchers with trolley poles - not to power the locos, but to activate the signal system (which worked through the overhead.)
Fun, isn't it!!!
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with BIG catenary motors, and virtual overhead)
Chuck and Mike:
Thanks for clarifying my post. I should have kept my mouth shut because my knowledge was obviously quite limited. Sorry to make you suffer through my blither, and you did so so very politely!
Thanks for your patience!