I would rather not experiment and find out the hard way. I have a new DCC ready HO Mantua Classics 2-6-6-2t locomotive that is quite "challenged" when it comes to efficiently picking-up power from the rails (it seems to find every speck of dirt when others locos - steam or diesel - run well). The middle drivers on both engines are blind. A traction tire on the last right side driver on the rear engine doesn't likely help, which I plan to remove since this loco is quite heavy for it's size and I wasn't planning on asking it to haul long trains anyway. I am wondering if any forum members know of a conductive lubricant. I know that the motor receives power from wheel contact with the rails, which is then mechanically coupled to the chassis (no wipers or other additional pickups). Would lubricating the side rod connecting points and/or points on the wheel axles be useful or very unwise. Or, instead of lubrication, would an electrical/contact cleaner provide any benefit. I have gleamed the rails and cleaned the loco wheels with 70% isopropyl alcohol , but this loco persists in staggering intermittently. I spoke with Mantua's technical support, I've tried everything they suggested.
Wilton.
I lube my brass steamers and plastic steamers using automatic transmission fluid. I wet a toothpick point with it and press it to the side rod screws and eccentrics and other linkages. Very little is needed or else you get a mess. The axle bearings get a drip of oil from the hobby shop Labelle 108 I think. Don't over do it. Its really easy to over lube and cause more problems with attracting dirt and dust.
http://www.con-cor.com/Labelle.html
There is a short piece of video on this link.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
i have Excelle lubricant that is conductive and I'm pretty sure Labelle has one
I recently fixed an 0-6-0 that had jerky performance. I couldn't understand how either all 3 engine or all 4 tender wheels could lose contact at the same time.
i used a ohm-meter to figure out exactly what was losing contact rather than guess. The first thing I checked was the tender and found it to be the problem. I took the trucks off and found that the wheels made contact with the rail but not the trucks. after cleaning where the the wheel made contact with the truck frame and made sure the frames made contact with the tender body, i had no further problems.
i suggest you use an ohm-meter to find the problem.
good luck
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
My Mantua Classics 0-6-0T seemed to be having the same problem that you described - stopping at every piece of dust and dirt. The flickering headlight and sounds going on-off-on-off-on-off was driving me nuts.
After some experimenting, I found out that the loco was only getting pickup from one driver on the right side.
I had an improperly bent wheel wiper that wasn't quite contacting the wheel rim. Rebending the wiper did not work, because the wiper's "default" position was slightly away from the wheel, and it would eventually unbend itself. After a couple of rounds of bending the wiper, I eventually used a piece of styrene to shim out the offending wiper.
I also used some automatic transmission fluid to lubricate the bearings, and I put in a bit of powdered graphite lubricant for good measure.
Hope this helps.
S&S
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
In this hobby, I have found that I get better results over the long haul if I accept that my problem isn't just 'one thing'. It is usually a combination of two things, and the first one is likely to be that the wheels are making intermittent contact with the power supply...the rails. I am always dismayed when I place a straightedge atop my rails, almost anyplace, back-light the item, and then look for gaps. They always show up. If the wheels get lifted, you get no contact. If the lifting wheels also cause other internal problems, say bending a wire just enough that an iffy/broken solder separates from it's tab, you have yet another break in the power distribution. And on it goes.
If you know the wipers all make good wiping contact, lubed or not, and if the connections via solders and wires are all good (check with a meter) to the motor, and if the wheels and rail head are clean, then I would be taking a very jaundiced look at how well the wheels maintain contact along the rail system.
Crandell
Correction: the wipers are on the LEFT side. Sorry about that, I was used to looking at it "wheels up" on the table. It seems that Mantua makes their contacts out of copper, not brass or phosphor-bronze or whatever the standard is. It seems that one of the wheels on my loco is just slightly angled, so that it eventually bends the wiper back away from the wheel. Bend your wipers against the wheel, and if they repeatedly come unbent, make a new wiper using brass wire.
Just so everyone knows, my 0-6-0T is one of the NEW ones with DCC & sound. The standard Mantua sprung tread wipers were replaced with new "improved" bent copper wipers that contact the back of the rim.
If you can't tell already, I'm working on my locomotive as I write this.
P.S. The shimming out of the wiper did work, but after a few minutes of hard running, the wiper bent itself again.
Thanks to all who responded to my post. Tomorrow when I go into town for weekly supplies, I'll pick-up some automatic tranny fluid, and hopefully some synthetic Labelle-type oil. No good source for the oil here (very small town) -maybe the auto parts store would have a synthetic oil product.
As far as I can tell, this loco has no wipers to conduct power from the wheels to the motor. The power for the 2-6-6-2t seems to be carried from wheels to motor via a red wire attached to the top of the front engine just ahead of the gearbox, and the black wire connects to the chassis of the loco under the cab. Any attempt to troubleshoot with my multimeter is frustrated by the fact that as soon as the loco is nudged it starts working again, usually briefly, sometimes longer. I have done most of the troubleshooting on the bench with it upside down, with power leads attached to the front left and right rear side rods. It will usually run normally, but sometimes stops in this position as well. A point of further clarification - I run my layout DCC with a Digitrax Super Chief Extra. This loco has a Loksound Select Micro sound decoder installed - but displayed the "dirty track syndrome" before I installed the decoder (it had to be hard-wired in - the Mantua socket and the ESU plug are not the same configuration). It's too bad there is no standard. More of this saga tomorrow.
Most older design steam locos pick up on the right/red side and send the power back on the other rail on the left/black side via the tender trucks. Best thing you can do is to add wipers on the left/black side on the loco and one the right/red side of the tender trucks, routing them so they add pickup to the existing system.
Atlas makes Conducta Lube Cleaner.
Aerocar Lubricants makes ConductaLube, which Blackstone recommends for use on the HOn3 locos.
www.aerocarlubricants.com
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
oregon shayAny attempt to troubleshoot with my multimeter is frustrated by the fact that as soon as the loco is nudged it starts working again, usually briefly, sometimes longer. I have done most of the troubleshooting on the bench with it upside down, with power leads attached to the front left and right rear side rods.
What I had in mind was to first try to determine if its the tender or loco.
check the continuity of the the unattached tender by connecting the ohm-meter to the tender and rolling it over the track. I previously described how i fixed the tender.
If the tender doesn't loose continuity, partially disassemble the loco and disconnect the motor so that you can push the loco over the tracks and check for continuity between the rail and motor connection. When continuity is lost, without nudging anything, check continuity between the rail and wheels and frame.
If it is between the rail and frame, there must be a continuity problem between all the wheels. I would think you can move the wheels by hand on the bench and check for continuity between each wheel and the frame.
Even if you have continuity between the rail and frame, there may be a problem between many of the other wheels. Since you have a 2-6-6-2, shouldn't at least 6 drivers have good continuity with both the rail and frame?
The Mantua 2-6-6-2 comes in 2 versions. I believe the OPs engine is the version without a tender. The lack of a tender, and its additional pickup points does not help the stalling issue.
Several other members have been complaining about the electrical pickup ability on these engines.
The power path is very simple on these engines. The power goes through the uninsulated wheel, then through wheel bearings and finally into the frame.
If using a DMM does not pin down your issue, here is another way to diagnose:
Get a couple of jumper wires and attach to the rails after a stall. Now gently touch the wheels with the jumper wires one side at at time. Then move to the frame. Do not touch the motor leads unless the decoder is removed.
This should as least narrow it down to which driver set is the problem.
Increased pickup could be added with metal wheels to the lead and trailing trucks. I used NWSL on my Mantua Mikado which worked well. A more difficult way is to add pickups to the opposite side insulated drivers. Wipers would need to be added and insulated from the metal frame.
Since power travels though the axle and bearings, it might be worthwhile to remove the bottom plate and give it a good cleaning. Oil with a hobby lubricate. An excellent substitute is 0-20w synthetic motor oil.
Jim
Thanks for the additional responses and excellent advice. As noted by Soo Line fan, this locomotive does not have a tender, which should simplify troubleshooting, but also detracts from it's ability to pick up power efficiently. When I wrote in my original post that this loco is new, I guess I should have clarified that I meant brand new, as this problem has been present since I removed it from it's original packaging. Unfortunately, I have no desire to try designing additional pickup hardware, and am leaning toward pursuing a warranty solution. Thanks again for the assistance. A resolution will be posted.
OREGON SHAY,
My 0-6-0T has also been acting up since I took it out of the box.
Regarding your loco, what I would do is first remove the traction tire. The tire will lift the end of the rear truck and result in only one wheel getting pickup on that side. The blind drivers are totally useless for pickup, even though they are wired for it.
Next I would remove the covers from the underside of the trucks apply automatic transmission fluid to the bearings using a small paintbrush. I would then take a tube of powdered graphite lubricant and gently tap it to drop some graphite onto the bearings. There is a bit of slop in the bearings where the cover fits over, so you will need a bit of graphite. After a bit of running, the graphite will get ground up further in the bearings, and with the ATF it turns into a kind of conductive lubricating slurry in the bearings.
That should resolve most of your problems with pickup. You will still only be getting pickup from two wheels on each side (as I said, the blind drivers don't count), but two drivers is a vast improvement over one. For even better pickup, you might want to consider adding a pickup wiper on each truck, soldered to the frame, and contacting the rail on the same side as the uninsulated drivers.
S&S,
Thanks for the additional information. Before my most recent posts I had removed the lone traction tire, suspecting as you do that it would be more of a hindrance to conductivity than anything else. The improvement was negligible, but I figure it has to help overall wheel contact.
After my most recent post, I decided to quit fooling around and just send the loco back to Trainworld, and seek a replacement. They were agreeable to exchanging it, provided I remove the ESU decoder that I had hard-wired into it. While I was doing the wiring change, I came upon a poor solder connection on the motor. I corrected that connection, hit all the other factory solder connections with my iron, and experienced a vast improvement in performance. Then I applied some Woodland Scenics HL653 lube on the side rod/driver pivot points, and saw the kind of performance I expected from the beginning. I plan to apply your technique with the graphite and ATF fluid next. It's now obvious that this loco was "underlubed" and "undersoldered" when I received it. I've been giving it some break-in time - big change in performance.
I'm grateful for all the help and troubleshooting tips that I received from those forum members who responded to my post.
oregon shay This loco has a Loksound Select Micro sound decoder installed - but displayed the "dirty track syndrome" before I installed the decoder
Hi, Wilton
You might want to look into adding a "stay alive" capacitor to your Loksound Select decoder. I recently installed a Select in a nice, heavy 8 wheel pick-up BLI F-7 and the first thing I experienced was a very finicky pick-up continuity to the decoder. Look into the ESU Select manual and read about adding a diode, resistor, capacitor to the board OR invest in ESUs "Power Pack" that can be added for helping your engine get over those pesky current interruptions.
I love the sound and performance of the Select but I have read here and on other forums that they are prone to stall if the pickup is less than ideal.
Pg. 16 ESU Select manual here... http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-decoders/
I haven't installed the cap yet but it is on my "to-do" list for the F-7...
Happy Modeling, ED
I wondered what decoder you had in it. Since it is an ESU sound decoder, I urge you again to look into added wipers. They are particularly important for sound decoders. The added capacitance will help, but best off counting on it as little as possible.
The basics of added wipers is to take a small piece of PCB tie, fasten the wiring to it, then attach it securely with a screw or glue. For wipers, check into Tichy phosphor bronze wire. Really nothing to it other than keeping the electrons sorted out from each other.
I know that automatic transmission fluid is real good oil, but for use on a model railroad locomotive?
I would think that there are much better and safer products to use. I would think that ATF would ruin plastic units if the oil got to the wrong place.
There was an article on using ATF on model railroads. The article focused on applying it to tracks to increase reliability. The author tested ATF on track, plastic wheels, and boxcars to see if it reacted negatively with the plastic or paint. His conclusion: ATF is harmless to all the model railroad plastics they tested. It didn't even damage the decals on the (plastic) boxcar.
ATF is highly a refined petroleum product, and on the bottle that I have, there are NO warnings about being corrosive. Only a warning about being poisonous (go figure, it's oil.)
If you're still not comfortable using ATF, test a very small amount on a junk plastic gear or junk loco. I've had no bad incidents so far.
Almost hate to say that both of my Mantua 2-6-6-2 chassis run like greased eels, clear down to 300mm radius (which is tighter than they will ever encounter in service, but true to their Uintah prototypes.)
Two things to check, both requiring removal of the retainer plates that hold the drivers in the frame:
I have used for a few years I bought a 12 oz can from Grainger then .Now I see Home depot for one carrys it.
It works well on all myHhobbytown drives I also have used a very small amount on my track it helps quite a bit.
Ron High
Atlas ConductaLube!
It works! It's plastic compatible!
It's virtually the only oil I use anymore.
We used to use it on brass loco drawbars and between trucks and tender, as it sometimes helps improve the power pickup.
If you put it on the rails, it helps to keep the track clean more effectively, in some ways, than the Atlas track cleaning solution. It can be used to clean locomotive bodies of minor crud without harming the paint.
You can use it anywhere you'd normally place lubricant. You can use it to lubricate the axle power pickup bearings, or wipers, or anything else. You can use it to lubricate valve gear.
Only downside--in the open air it can and will evaporate--so on valve gear you might want to use something like Labelle medium weight plastic compatible oil instead, if you don't want to have to re-apply. If you do use it on valve gear, it does not attract much dirt at all.
Don't ever and I mean this use non-plastic compatible lubricant. I have seen far too many trains brought into the train store where people did--it literally eats the plastic, period. It turns somebody's would be trade-in into worthless junk that we won't touch.
Most people dramatically over-lubricate their trains--thus attracting dirt to the valve gear which can cause the wear they are trying to prevent (by oiling) in the first place. I follow the manufacturer's instructions. In many cases in HO scale, I never remove the locomotive body to add any additional lubricant--anymore most instructions--even from Athearn's recent Genesis engines, say that additional lubricant should not be required for normal operational situations (save perhaps the wheel bearings). Walthers Proto 2000 drivetrains use graphite impregnated bronze bearings and delrin "self-lubricating" gears that should not require additional lubricant. The exception being trains that run all day long every day, for many hours per day, which is severe service.
Unless it makes noise, and with the exception of wheel/axle bearings or valve gear, I don't usually add lubricant.
John