Hi! Sorry I got into this thread late - we've been under the weather somewhat............
I've been playing with trains for 60 years now, and turnout control has always been a major consideration in any of my layouts. I confess I'm usually of a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mindset, the idea of radio/wifi controlled turnouts is awesome. Having a keypad where one could punch in a turnout number OR a programmed series of turnouts would be terrific.
While the technology is certainly able to do this, the problem (as usual) is cost. But, 20 years ago the idea of DCC was "blue sky" primarily because of cost, but of course now its more the norm than not.
Having said all this, I still get a minor thrill out of throwing the bar on a Caboose Hobbies groundthrow.........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
richhotrain {snip} Since I am fantasizing about all of this, what I want is a throttle that you aim at a turnout like a remote aimed at a television set. Aim and press a button. Voila, the point rails are thrown. As much as I love Tortoises and have more than 60 on my layout, I dread the thought of cutting 60 holes on my Dream Layout and installing 60 Tortoises plus the wiring.
{snip}
Since I am fantasizing about all of this, what I want is a throttle that you aim at a turnout like a remote aimed at a television set. Aim and press a button. Voila, the point rails are thrown.
As much as I love Tortoises and have more than 60 on my layout, I dread the thought of cutting 60 holes on my Dream Layout and installing 60 Tortoises plus the wiring.
Unionville Depot has a point-and-throw solution available, using a modified laser pointer, though the installation isn't as simple as you'd like, nor is it terribly inexpensive. They displayed it at the National Train Show in Grand Rapids last year, and again at the big show in Springfield this year.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
Anything where you have to key in some arbitrary address to operate the turnout, just isn;t going to fly. It's not a better mousetrap.
That doesn;t mean DCC or WiFi control is a completely useless idea. There IS a perfectly good reason to have DCC decoders run the turnouts - setting up a dispatcher panel. Implementing say a Digitrax Loconet control bus, you could have as big a CTC machine (physical or virtual - but leaning more towards physical to illustrate this) as you need, connected tot he railroad with just a single phone cord. With a WiFi control system - there wouldn't be ANY wires.
Locally controlled turnouts will always be better with either ground throws or some locally located pushbutton or toggle. DCC address only, it IS far too cumbersome for regular running.
What MIGHT work for a "point and shoot" would be some form of RFID. Since the range is limited, the controller would only get the address of the nearby turnout controller, not every one across the layout. How this could possibly work in a yard where there are turnouts literally stacked on top of one another is an exercise I will leave to others.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
richhotrainI install a Atlas Custom Line turnout ($15) plus a Tortoise ($18) plus a DPDT ($5) on the control panel.
And there is your answer. This is exactly what most of us do. We have what is effectively a LAN (Local Area Network) with DCC, and we can control our turnouts remotely from a throttle, if we wish, or from a wireless throttle, if we wish, but we generally don't. From what I read here, among a representative sample of enthusiastic and very capable model railroaders, is your suggested option isn't something people want in enough numbers to make it a viable product.
"If you build it, they will come" doesn't always work. This is one of those cases.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
alco_fan richhotrainalco fan, are you having a bad day? No worse than usual, thanks for asking. I should have added a smilie to my previous post, I did mean it tongue in cheek I admit that I never get used to the forum concept of wild and pointless speculation on impractical ideas that go on and on with no appreciation of reality. My bad. Have a nice day in Fantasyland and I will not intrude with any more reality.
richhotrainalco fan, are you having a bad day?
No worse than usual, thanks for asking.
I should have added a smilie to my previous post, I did mean it tongue in cheek
I admit that I never get used to the forum concept of wild and pointless speculation on impractical ideas that go on and on with no appreciation of reality. My bad.
Have a nice day in Fantasyland and I will not intrude with any more reality.
It is sad how perfectly legitimate threads with innocent questions such as "Why can't this be done?" can get hijacked so easily by not so well meaning individuals.
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, How would this point and shoot thing work in the middle of a complex interlocking? - you know, picture a double track mainline with two crossovers and a diverging route - how would you know you were aiming accurately at the correct turnout? Would it thow throw both turnouts of the crossover, or would you have to do both seperately? I press one or two buttons and complex routes of of multiple turnouts all align themselves correctly - no aiming, no punching in numbers, etc. Sheldon
Rich,
How would this point and shoot thing work in the middle of a complex interlocking? - you know, picture a double track mainline with two crossovers and a diverging route - how would you know you were aiming accurately at the correct turnout? Would it thow throw both turnouts of the crossover, or would you have to do both seperately?
I press one or two buttons and complex routes of of multiple turnouts all align themselves correctly - no aiming, no punching in numbers, etc.
Sheldon
Yeah, you're right.
The wind has gone out of my sails on this thread. Let's end it.
Rich
alco_fan richhotrainYou may call me Guglielmo. I will add that to my list of things i call you.
richhotrainYou may call me Guglielmo.
I will add that to my list of things i call you.
alco fan, are you having a bad day?
alco_fan richhotrainCan you aim the throttle at it and push a button to turn the point rails? It is the same as it would be for WiFi. You press something on the controller and the switch points move. WiFi cannot be "aimed", Dr. Marconi.
richhotrainCan you aim the throttle at it and push a button to turn the point rails?
It is the same as it would be for WiFi. You press something on the controller and the switch points move.
WiFi cannot be "aimed", Dr. Marconi.
You may call me Guglielmo.
WiFi cannot be "aimed", Dr. Marconi. You would need macros or something similar to be sure you only changed the one switch you wanted to change. Just like DCC.
alco_fan richhotrainMy basic point is wanting a wireless turnout. Which exists now with DCC. Your wish has been granted.
richhotrainMy basic point is wanting a wireless turnout.
Which exists now with DCC. Your wish has been granted.
Can you aim the throttle at it and push a button to turn the point rails?
alco_fan richhotrainI was just using retail prices to make a point. Why, when nobody pays retail? If your basic point is that your magic solution would be way cheaper, join us in the real world and explain how.
richhotrainI was just using retail prices to make a point.
Why, when nobody pays retail?
If your basic point is that your magic solution would be way cheaper, join us in the real world and explain how.
alco_fan richhotrainI was just using retail prices to make a point. Why, when nobody pays retail?
Just to make a point.
Besides, some people do pay retail.
I have a LHS that does not discount. When I want something bad enough, and I don't want to wait, even I sometimes pay retail.
alco_fan richhotrainHmmm, seems like there is little enthusiasm for this idea. Rightfully so. where would you put the switch motor itself? You'd still need a hole in the benchwork or some kind of box on the layout surface. And you know that WiFi radios are not free, right? And you're going to juggle the DCC controller and the separate WiFi controller for the turnouts?
richhotrainHmmm, seems like there is little enthusiasm for this idea.
Rightfully so. where would you put the switch motor itself? You'd still need a hole in the benchwork or some kind of box on the layout surface.
And you know that WiFi radios are not free, right? And you're going to juggle the DCC controller and the separate WiFi controller for the turnouts?
Hey, I said I was fantasizing.
With all of this miniaturization, just develop a very very tiny motor.
alco_fan richhotrainPlus the sheer cost. I install a Atlas Custom Line turnout ($15) plus a Tortoise ($18) plus a DPDT ($5) on the control panel. If you add a stationary decoder, that is another $12. You really must like to overpay. Tortoises in bulk are more like 12 or 13 bucks each street price, an 8-way decoder like the NCE Switch-8 is about 6-8 bucks per switch motor. Tony's Train Exchange has a special right now for a dozen Hare stationary decoder /Tortoise combos purchased together at only about $13.50 each.
richhotrainPlus the sheer cost. I install a Atlas Custom Line turnout ($15) plus a Tortoise ($18) plus a DPDT ($5) on the control panel. If you add a stationary decoder, that is another $12.
You really must like to overpay. Tortoises in bulk are more like 12 or 13 bucks each street price, an 8-way decoder like the NCE Switch-8 is about 6-8 bucks per switch motor. Tony's Train Exchange has a special right now for a dozen Hare stationary decoder /Tortoise combos purchased together at only about $13.50 each.
LOL
I knew someone would raise this issue. I was just using retail prices to make a point.
You really must like to overpay. Tortoises in bulk are more like 12 or 13 bucks each street price, an 8-way decoder like the NCE Switch-8 is about 6-8 bucks per switch motor.
Tony's Train Exchange has a special right now for a dozen Hare stationary decoder /Tortoise combos purchased together at only about $13.50 each.
How much cheaper do you think a low volume specialized WiFi model railroad product would be?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, have you ever operated on a layout where the turnouts are controlled by stationary decoders and operated from the DCC throttle? I have, it's not all that great a situation in my view. The one guy I know with that setup is now adding little control panels near each group of turnouts (interlocking) because knowing the numbers and entering them into the Digitrax throttle proved to be too much of a pain for most operators.
Rich, have you ever operated on a layout where the turnouts are controlled by stationary decoders and operated from the DCC throttle? I have, it's not all that great a situation in my view. The one guy I know with that setup is now adding little control panels near each group of turnouts (interlocking) because knowing the numbers and entering them into the Digitrax throttle proved to be too much of a pain for most operators.
Sheldon, no I never have, and for the reasons that you suggest.
I use a simple relay circuit to operate whole routes of tortise machines through interlockings which allows them to be controlled by lighted pushbuttons in multimple locations - locally and on a CTC panel. The pushbuttons light up on the track diagram to show the route.
One relay per turnout at about $3 each, less expensive than stationary decoders with just as much flexibility in design and function.
Years ago, long before DCC, I designed a plug in throttle that would also operate 100 turnouts via a matrix system - never actually built it - glad I didn't after using the Digitrax set up, it would not have been any better.
CTC and/or track side turnout controls seem to work best, despite their installation issues.
I also use home made ground throws for all turnouts that would be hand thrown on the prototype. Only tower controlled turnouts are electrified on my layout.
My ground thows don't look relistic, but the work well - they are just sub mini slide switches and music wire - I need the electrical contacts for frogs and power routing.
True but misleading. Yes, wire connection offer a greater bandwidth and thus potential for higher throughputs than you get over an RF connection. All else being equal though there is no difference. Sure there's 10Gbps wired connections becoming fairly common now, and nothing close yet in wireless, but a 10Mbps connection is a 10Mbps connection regardless of transmission medium (outside of perhaps propogation delay).
Techie banter aside, it's all quite meaningless for railroad use, real or model - consider how CTC machines transmit SERIALLY over lines that were originally used for telegraph use. In the model world - Digitrax Loconet is an od 16677 bits per second, and NCE recommends using 9600 bps for the serial connection to the command station. And that stuff is PLENTY fast enough, even for large layouts. Various WiFi standards are WAY faster than we need to control trains - but it's not about the speeds, it's about using common off the shelf bits that are manufacturered in the millions so as to keep costs down. Even the original high price of DCC was usually less than the proprietary command control systems - because here was a standard used across multiple manufacturers rather than some custom bit that each vendor sold maybe 100's of if they were lucky.
I'm not switching away from DCC any time soon, but it's nice to see innovation is not yet dead. Combine the WiFi based controls with on-board batteries and most track will not have to be powered. Want to model a rusty old siding that sees 1 car a week, if that? You would be able to. Who knows, add wireless power transmission and you won't have to run wires to those switch motors. Dead frogs? No problem, because of the batteries. Reverse loops? Also a non-issue. I would rather see the current attempts at wireless like Railpro move forward using standardized WiFi protocols and chipsets, with some standard developed for the actual data stream ala DCC, making it a true multi-vendor standard like DCC.
Hmmm, seems like there is little enthusiasm for this idea.
What appeals to me about it is the absence of any need to drill holes in the layout or have to get under the layout to do the wiring. No stuff on the layout surface like above the table mechanisms or manual ground throws.
Plus the sheer cost. I install a Atlas Custom Line turnout ($15) plus a Tortoise ($18) plus a DPDT ($5) on the control panel. If you add a stationary decoder, that is another $12.
Oh well.
I started with DCC back when base line decoders were $50. Now that they are $20 and have ten times the features, I'm sticking there. Let some one else further the hobby with their wallet.
Actually, since the track will need to be powered and the turnout motor will also need power it seems that the controller for that turnout could easily get its commands via rail as it can now. My techie friends tell me that no matter how good WIFI is, a wired connection is always faster
Martin Myers
To All,
I'd rather be behind the crest of the wave then,in front of it,, After all, I'm not a surfer, by a long shot..
Cheers,
Frank
I wired standard components into an electrical (non-electronic) system that simulates mechanical interlocking of six signals and as many point throwing devices, That cost me a handful of 'dozen for a buck' diodes. I would have needed the semaphore and point actuators in any event, and the control power connections are made with a hot probe and studs on the schematic diagram. Power is a 5 amp 12.6VAC filament transformer.
The alternative (which I considered) would have involved building the mechanical interlocking frame and activating the points and semaphores with cables. It would have been cheaper, but a lot fussier and more time consuming to assemble.
In my experience, aligning points and changing semaphore indications involved human muscles moving big chunks of iron. No pushbutton remotes running anything but TV sets in mid-1960s Japan. As of this moment, my house isn't equipped with Wi-Fi and I don't own anything more advanced than a dumb (and cheap) wireless telephone. My computer communicates by cable. If this puts me somewhat behind the crest of the wave, so be it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
jrbernierYou still have to provide power wiring(unless you are going to use 'expensive' DCC track power).
Price theoretically could be cheaper than DCC, given the ubiquitous nature of WiFi and WiFi chipsets these days. Most of what goes into DCC decoders is maybe an offshoot of other technologies with broader appeal, like cell phones, but it's not EXACTLY the same, there aren't off the shelf components being used. 1.5-2 amp PWM H bridge drivers aren't common is hugely mass produced consumer electronics, for example. Now, if a control system was built using standard off the shelf WiFi chipsets that are used in pretty much everything these days - there's be components being used that are made and purchased int he millions, not thousands. Cost per chip should be significantly less than something that has little use outside a niche in a niche hobby (much as we would like to beleive EVERYONE is a model railroader, in truth the percentage of overall population is quite small, especially compared to some consumer electronics like cell phones). There are a few other technologies that are showing promise for short range RF communications and self-defining networks, like Zigbee.
Just because some devices talk to each other via WiFi protocols does NOT mean they are connected to the internet. Even when running WiThrottle with JMRI to run my trains at home, the WiThrottle interface is not exposed outside my local network - the firewall blocks public internet connections to the JMRI computer. Only people already on my WiFi network or plugged in to my ethernet can access it. I can CHOSE to open it up if I wish - in fact I had an idea to put a cam on my train, feeding the signal back and then using my iPad, with its bigger display, to show the video view plus the WiThrottle controls, so I cna totally drive the train with just the engineer's eye view. This would work great on our club layout which is fully signaled. I'm sure it's been done already. You could drive remotely across the internet, or just locally. Follow the signal indications, and contact the DS over your radio.