I have two atlas solenoid switch machines that I would like to operate simultaneously. These control the entrance to my Y from the mainline. The momentary SPDT switch controls both the machines connected in parallel. Well, if I wanted to add a relay to operate a panel indicator and a line side signal, the switches don't operate. I am feeding off the accessory AC connects of an Athearn DC supply.
Is there a simple way to do this? I have an old (RailPower 1300) supply with accessory terminals as well, could this work better?
Thanks,
Neeraj.
You may want to either purchase a capacitor discharge unit or build one from plans that are available. With some power packs throwing more than two switches at a time will draw more power than the pack can supply. If you are using Atlas snap relays they go in parallel with the switch machines. The CD unit will supply more UMPH to throw the switch machines.
Good morning Neeraj.
I built a capacitive discharge power supply with parts from Radio Shack for under $10. I still use the push and slide Atlas switches but they don't give me an on track turn out position light. Have not figured that one out yet. I have two sets of double turn outs and would guess that the CD would throw 3 or more turnouts.I went on lie at http://www.awrr.com/cdsupply.html and printed out the diagram parts list and directions. This configuration gives me about 30V for a split second and won't burn out the Atlas motors. I have not had a motor burn out since I built the CD system. If a button sticks the CD won't recharge until the button is released.
I hopes this helps
Lee
P.S. If the link doesn't work I could copy and post the three pages.
Sheese, I wonder why my post is shaded?
Each machine draws 3amps. Then add in the relay and you are probably 8-9 amps. The Athearn pack is probably rated at 1-2 amps continuous. Momentarily it will supply more, which is why you can drive the 2 machines with it. But is is not the best idea.
So the answer is to build the CD unit.
Jim
LION built 5 amp power supply, could still only throw two switches with one button.
Him *tried* the "Snapper" but that burned up and was not re-tried.
LION likes his Tortoises. Him can run any number of them, with their signals and any extra relays all with just one wire from the control panel. And Tortoise are so easy to install, once you throw away the instructions and do things my way.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Hey guys
Isn't the OP talking talking about the Atlas snap motors? What kind of turn out motor takes 5amps?
Those twin coils are fairly low resistence, so a momentary 5 amps is not out of the question. The Atlas ones usually aren;t that high, but well over 1 amp. Some of the old hefty twin coil machines indeed were more like 5 amps.
If you ever had a setup with a single power pack running the train and also powering the switch motors, you may remember how the train would slow down when you pressed the button - momentary overload.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
yankee flyer Hey guys Isn't the OP talking talking about the Atlas snap motors? What kind of turn out motor takes 5amps? Lee
LION did not say that the motors take 5 amps. Him has 5 amp supply and could run TWO motors off of it but not three at once. Actually sometimes three would work, and other times not, this would depend on the conditions of the switch and the switch motor. Spray them liberally with graphite powder and you could get three of them to work, but it was not reliable. Track work and geometry has something to do with the equation too.
Anyway LION got rid of all snap switches, as they do not fit into my operating control system.
I'm sorry but I can't visualize, an Atlas snap switch taking even 3 amps 3mille amps maybe, but not 3 amps.
The coils' wire is probably a #32 gauge, very small. Of course I have been wrong before. Once or twice, or, maybe more, well we wont add them up.
have a good one.
empirical results are empirical results. Three coils was the MAX that I could move with a 12 v dc supply with adequate amperage. Maybe 18 volts ac could do it better.
Yes, fine wire - that's why they melt if the button sticks. The windings on a motor are also that small, but can run 1 amp or more.
The resistence is low. Volts = amps time resistence, aso 12V divided by a low ohms is a lot of amps. It's nearly a dead short.
Even a Tortoise draws more than 3ma.
yankee flyer I'm sorry but I can't visualize, an Atlas snap switch taking even 3 amps 3mille amps maybe, but not 3 amps. The coils' wire is probably a #32 gauge, very small. Of course I have been wrong before. Once or twice, or, maybe more, well we wont add them up. have a good one. Lee
I am not good at doing electrical visualization. I like to actually measure things. What I have measured is 1 to 3 amps per Atlas snap machine. Most of the ones were close to 3 amps.
Get a meter and check for yourself
OK, I stand corrected. Anyway, like I said, my CD circuit will handle 2 or 3 of the snap switches and you get a good snap out of it.
Cheers
It's all a matter of energy density. The cap can provide a near instantaneous jolt of about 1.4x the RMS AC input voltage to the circuit (assuming the CD supply connects to the AC terminals). It just cannot supply that amperage for more than a few milliseconds. So there's a double benefit from a CD supply - more power to the switch motors, PLUS it only gets applied for a limited time. There's usually a hefty (wattage) resistor int he circuit which serves to limit inrush when recharging the capacitor, this ALSO limits the amount of current that can flow through the switch motor if the button is held or sticks after the big cap discharges. When I built my one from Practical Electronic Projects for Model Railroaders to use on my N scale layout, I never again burned out another Atlas motor (and the N scale ones, at least in the late 70's, were VERY fragile and touch - these had the metal covers which I suppose was an attempt to act as a heat sink but still they were easily burned out even if the buttons didn;t stick), and in fact if the button was purposely held down, they didn;t even get warm after a minute or two.
BroadwayLionAnyway LION got rid of all snap switches, as they do not fit into my operating control system.
Did you really "get rid" of those Atlas snap switch machines LION? The reason I ask is that I'm an old fashioned guy who has quite a number of them and I need a few more as in about a dozen to power a bunch of turnouts that don't have any machines. Can't find any anywhere.
If you still have them, I'd be interested in procuring them from you for a price of course!
Dennis
CDN Dennis
Modeling the HO scale something or other RR in the shadow of the Canadian Rockies Alberta, Canada
These will require some looking. Some were Model Power Switches which had to be cut off of the switch with a motor tool. When I bought Atlas switches, I always bought them un-powered. But I will send one of my cats through the boxes to see what he can find.
Lion: Yes, I am a huge fan of tortoise now, but this was from a time when I thought I could not put a tortoise in that particular place. I have self learned a lot of reliable ways to mount tortoises now, but I am reluctant to switch out. Kind of want a quick fix and move on.
Chocho: I have I would guess 10 working snap switch machines, since i went all tortoise. I also have screw kits (those come in bubble wrap) and the toggle control switches. PM me and I would be happy to provide them to you.
Rrinker: CD across the AC output seems like the thing to do. 1.4 RMS should in theory work as I can reliable operate two machines today on 1.0x RMS, whatever the AC supply output is on this power pack.
Thanks all.
Lion: I don't know what you did to burn up your Snapper, but I've been running a Snapper for 10 years with 22vdc input and throwing 6-7 Atlas switch machines at a time.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
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modelmaker51 Lion: I don't know what you did to burn up your Snapper, but I've been running a Snapper for 10 years with 22vdc input and throwing 6-7 Atlas switch machines at a time.
LION does not know what happened to it. It stopped snapping, and so I fed it to the turtles.
Solution!
I connected the AC output of two DC throttles in parallel and I have lots of oomph now on that supply. Two turnouts and a relay is not a problem at all. I figured both were 19V AC, coming off the same wall supply (same phase) and a transformer inside no matter what will do exactly the same phase change for both units. So should work as long as the terminals are not swapped and it did.
so until I get the time to build a CD circuit, I am happy with this arrangement.
I tried DC 24V also (my +/-12v supply for tortoise machines) and that did not work. I think that supply is 700mA max and I am sure has a current limit on it.
On to another switch machine now, this will be an Atlas one as well ... They are so cheap and can have two controls.
NP
Ok this is not working. The "Overload" indication on the Athearn cab comes up and is making me nervous. I think I will build a CD circuit, now that I know it is all about CURRENT and not about VOLTAGE at all. I am just going to go off the 15V DC output of the cab I have.
NP.
A word of caution if you decide to build your own capacitive discharge unit (which is what you need). You can kill yourself (or someone else) if you use a big enough capacitor to throw..say ten switches in a yard ladder (as I did). If the capacitor contacts are exposed and someone shorts them through themselves you could be in for a lot of trouble. Better off buying one that is UL approved.
BroadwayLion modelmaker51 Lion: I don't know what you did to burn up your Snapper, but I've been running a Snapper for 10 years with 22vdc input and throwing 6-7 Atlas switch machines at a time. LION does not know what happened to it. It stopped snapping, and so I fed it to the turtles. ROAR
You're on a roll today LION
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Good point. Capacitors are nasty beasts. Back in college we used to reverse bias electolyric capacitors and explode them ... Oops ... They would fly across the room. That was dumb. Where could I purchase a CD unit? It's too simple to look for purchasing though.
Umm, no. About the max voltage you'll get on the cap in a CD unit, assuming using an 18V AC power pack to run it, is about 25 volts. If you build one, use a minimum 35 volt capacitor. 50 would be even better. Enough to throw 10 machines at once? 4700uF should do just fine. It won't zap you.
This is NOT the same as the high voltage capacitors in a computer power supply or TV set - Those CAN zap you but good, and you need to practivce all applicable safetry procedures when dealing with them.
A CD supply for your trains is a very simple circuit and easy to build, a great first electronics project.
If the OP is only going to throw a cross over or two the "CD" circuit I suggested will work just fine. It protects the motors and has plenty of power. You don't have to build the indicator circuit, shown in yellow. The bluish things show the turn-out motors just for clarity. I put the whole thing in a small electrical wall switch box just because the input is a 120 V .
No big thing. http://www.awrr.com/cdsupply.html
BTW, the CD supply I built from Practical Electronic Projects for Model Railroaders (th fast recharge one, with a transistor - pretty much the same circuit shown on Rob Paisley's site) I ran from the AC terminals of the old Aurora Postage Stamp Trains power pack (N scale). It had some trouble with some of my locos, so I was running trains with a Tech II. That leads me to believe that a 500ma or so wall wart would be fine to be the charging power supply. No high voltage AC wiring that way. Something I would NOT recommend for a beginner to mess around with.
Just finished building it and the largest cap I found in stock at the local radio shack was 2200uF. It works fine off the DC outputs of an old DC power supply which is 15V. I think this is still lacking in oomph although it's working fine for 3 switch machines in parallel. I might need to add another cap in parallel, but I am not going to hurry.
It has been a long time since I soldered something on a circuit board.
Yup just add another in parallel, that will be 4400uF then.