Good day Tomcat
Just thinking out loud here.
You can run seven engines at once.
Can't run two new engines with out tripping CB. If they have a direct short, 5 amps should be able to weld them to the rails. Really need an AMP meter! Does the track have a high resistance short, bringing the load close to the trip point? Need to measure if there is any current draw with out anything on track. Could put an auto light bulb in series with one of the track leads. If it lights there is current flow.
Why do the two engines trip CB with out flames are sparks? Need to measure their current draw!
I wonder what the circuit breaker is rated at, and if it is working right.
Note: to self, need amp meter
I can run two double header with sound, short trains with my Power Cab. Never had a problem with in rush current.
Best of luck.
Lee
What breaker is on there now, and what are you going to replace it with?
Let us know how this works out for you. A big part of these online brainstorming sessions is feedback of what works and what doesn't. Thanks.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thats what i was thinking originally about my NCE, I finally got a hold of my NCE dealer here in Aus' and he said i would have issues with the QSIs and has ordered me a circuit breaker to add to my booster,different to the one i already have now so hopefully it will work,
I dont quite understand whats happening or how it will fix it .i guess we will just see what happens
Thanks too all you wonderful people for all your advice .it all you guys who have such great knowlege of trains that make it all worth while
I hope i can help someone someday with their dillemmas to return the favour
Call Larry at NCE. It may be an internal issue in the command station.
I had a problem with QSI engines cutting out (Atlas SD24's with factory QSI), sometimes with 1 on the track, worse with 2, unbearable with 3.. Seems my NCE PHP had a loading issue, because all 3 engines ran fine on my buddies pike, (have you tried running them somewhere else yet?) also with the same NCE system.
NCE fixed it, when I got it back I could handle those 3 with ease, and just for giggles I threw 2 Intermountan F's with QSI and 3 other Atlas engines with Tsunami's. They ran great, of course it was a noisy light engine move!!
Karl
NCE über alles!
Are we confusing the issue here? It's not wire gauges, it's not supply capacity.
Breaker trip = too much current in the wire that some how the breaker "sees".
Measure the current by wiring a meter in series (can't measure across Rail A and B leads have to cut a wire going to the layout and insert a meter).
Sounds like for some reason both locos are bad a little bit by the same way. I would guess that 1 new loco and say 5-6 other ones will cause the same problem.
NP.
What are you powering your booster with? The output of the power supply must be greater than 5 amps. If you are using an old power pack from a train set it will not have the power to supply 2 sound equipped locomotives. You can wire in an amp meter between the power supply and the booster. This will give you a reading of what your system is drawing for power.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
JoeinPA Don: Look at my post and tomcat's included. It doesn't appear to be an inrush problem since the locos power up and sit at idle with no problem. It's only when they are commanded to move that the problem arises. This doesn't indicate an inrush problem to me. Joe
Don:
Look at my post and tomcat's included. It doesn't appear to be an inrush problem since the locos power up and sit at idle with no problem. It's only when they are commanded to move that the problem arises. This doesn't indicate an inrush problem to me.
Joe
Oh quite right. I missed that post. Sorry.
Current measurement is the way to go now. I never had a QSI loco take more then .5 amps when running (and that is at full load) (~7Watts)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
MisterBeasley tomcat, my booster is wired straight into the main bus line via a circuit breaker before it enters the track and powers the whole layout and i have no isolated tracks , So, you've got the output of the booster going to a circuit breaker, and then to the track, right? What is the track bus output of the base station going to? Which circuit breaker is tripping, the one on the base station or the one on the booster?
tomcat, my booster is wired straight into the main bus line via a circuit breaker before it enters the track and powers the whole layout and i have no isolated tracks ,
So, you've got the output of the booster going to a circuit breaker, and then to the track, right? What is the track bus output of the base station going to?
Which circuit breaker is tripping, the one on the base station or the one on the booster?
Mr. B is on the right track here (excuse the pun) If the circuit breaker is tripping, then chances are you have to reprogram them to handle the higher inrush current.
Which model circuit breaker are you using?
This is one of the reasons I like DCC Specialities PSX breakers. They are expensive, but I've seen them power up 14 sound engines at once, at a roundhouse without tripping. (15 however killed it)
tomcat hi joeinpa its happening either way i do it, both engines can sit on the track with power on and sound on at idle but as soon as i move either one thats when the shut down occurs, i ve tried slow running on both. and high speed running on and its all the same as soon as either one moves off from idle it will short the layout. By the way im running my layout with a 5 amp booster with my NCE,!! Any thoughts? _____________ I'm a bit puzzled here. If it is an inrush problem you would expect the system to shut down as soon as the loco(s) were powered up. It appears that they power up OK but cause the problem when they are commanded to move. This could indicate a problem with the motors having too high a current draw. That could mean some motor rehab is needed or that the problem is in the driveline. What is the history of these locos? An amp test is really needed here to see if there is excessive current draw when the locos are commanded to move. Joe
hi joeinpa
its happening either way i do it,
both engines can sit on the track with power on and sound on at idle but as soon as i move either one thats when the shut down occurs, i ve tried slow running on both. and high speed running on and its all the same as soon as either one moves off from idle it will short the layout.
By the way im running my layout with a 5 amp booster with my NCE,!!
Any thoughts?
_____________
I'm a bit puzzled here. If it is an inrush problem you would expect the system to shut down as soon as the loco(s) were powered up. It appears that they power up OK but cause the problem when they are commanded to move. This could indicate a problem with the motors having too high a current draw. That could mean some motor rehab is needed or that the problem is in the driveline. What is the history of these locos? An amp test is really needed here to see if there is excessive current draw when the locos are commanded to move.
Train Modeler I tried a test with 2 tsunamis and got 1.4 or so amps for inrush current. I don't think the OP for sure is testing amps when he says he's seeing up to 13.
I tried a test with 2 tsunamis and got 1.4 or so amps for inrush current. I don't think the OP for sure is testing amps when he says he's seeing up to 13.
I agree. I think the "11.5 to a max of 13.0" is actually volts, which would be about normal for a DCC system.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
i dont have any lighted passenger cars and the buss just runs the track power my turnout motors are on a seperate power line.
i have tried running the QSIs with nothing else on the layout and just those 2 locos and it still happens no other locos on at all
I tried a test with 2 tsunamis and got 1.4 or so amps for inrush current. I don't think the OP for sure is testing amps when he says he's seeing up to 13. If he has a low setting on his circuit protector that could do it.
I would again suggest to check the continuity of wheels to couplers, just in case.
Richard
tomcat this all should be fine thoughwith these gauge wires .. dont you think?
this all should be fine thoughwith these gauge wires .. dont you think?
MisterBeasley Train ModelerCheck your amp draw with a meter How well does that work with DCC? I've never tried it. It would certainly be informative in this case.
Train ModelerCheck your amp draw with a meter
How well does that work with DCC? I've never tried it. It would certainly be informative in this case.
MB,
The built-in meter on the Power Cab works well. It's a feature that you have to activate, which is outlined in the manual.
Also, it's only available on the Power Cab and it only works with the Power Cab by itself. Once the Power Cab is connected to a Smart Booster or PH Pro system, that feature is overridden. Unfortunate.
[Edit: Oops! I just realize that you were talking about a regular multimeter for checking amperage rather than the built-in one with the Power Cab. Even so, the above still holds true.]
my dcc buss is twisted 14g and my feeders are 16g and feeding the track every 900mm at the mos, I made it a rule to make sure there are feeders on every piece of track.
What gauge wire is your DCC buss and how many feeder wires do you have to your trackwork. It appears to me that your wiring is inadequate for the current draw.
If your layout has only one or two electrical connections to the track, and the wire is too small a gauge, you are overloading the DCC booster.
it seems to work ok , my meter says a low of about 11.5 to a max of 13.0
please dsiregard my previous readings
Just tried running them with no other locos on the layout and it still happened
they just dont seem to want to run together they are ok while they are both in idle but as soon as i move either onethats when it happens it happens??
ok i understand
, my booster is wired straight into the main bus line via a circuit breaker before it enters the track and powers the whole layout and i have no isolated tracks , my proramm track is totally seperate.
I will try removing all other locos and see what happens
An amp check sees my track power at min 1.4v - 13.5 max.
but i dont understand why is it just with these 2 new locos on the layout with QSI quantums in them?
both engines programmed fine on the program track but all went downhil from there on the main
Try removing all the other locomotives, and just run the 2 new ones.
From your description, I think you've got a short somewhere on the layout, unrelated to the engines, but it's masked by a poor connection so the short won't trip the breaker by itself. The extra current draw of the new engines puts it over the top.
Have you tried the "quarter test" on your layout, paying special attention to sidings and tracks that are far from the base station?
How is your system wired. You mentioned an NCE system with a booster. Does the booster drive an isolated section of the layout, while the base system drives another part?
Check your amp draw with a meter The system may be thinking it has a short when it's just too many amps too quickly. I don't know NCE systems well, but you can check to see if you're over amping.
It's unlikely, but you can check to see if there's any electrical conductivity between the couplers and wheels as well as between the couplers of both units.
Tomcat:
Does the short happen when the engines are on the track and you turn the power on or is the power on and the short occurs when you place the engine(s) on the track? It sounds like it may be an inrush current problem. I had this problem periodically with my layout although I am running a Digitrax Zephyr and it sounds like you are running a higher amp system. I have found that I can prevent the problem by parking my 2 QSI locos on separate tracks that I can electrically isolate with SPDT switches. If I turn the layout power on and than individually power up the 2 QSI equipped locos I'm OK.
IT HAPPENS LESS FREQUENTLY WITH 1 ENGINE ON THE TRACK AND ALL THE TIME WHEN BOTH ARE ON.
WHEN THEY ARE OFF THE TRACK THERE IS NO PROBLEM
.IT DOESNT SEEM TO MATTER HOW MANY TRAINS ARE ON AT ANY ONE TIME ,I CAN RUN 7 ENGINES AT THE MOMENT .I DONT HAVE ANY LIGHTED CARS AND THE ONLY THING THAT DRAWS TRACK POWER ARE THE ENGINES.
AS FOR MY PROGRAM TRACK ALL IS FINE WHEN THEY ARE ON IT.
wHAT DO YOU THINK MAY BE WRONG?
sorry about caps lock on
Does this happen when either one of the engines is on the layout, or only when both of them are on the layout?
And, does everything run fine again when you take them both off?
How many other engines are on your tracks? How about lighted passenger cars or anything else drawing track power?
Do you have a programming track? Can you read the engine addresses on that?