DCC Starter Sets

[darrel480]

I have used an MRC Advanced2 system for the last 3 years.  It has never failed to do what I want it to do.  Price was great, 28 functions, programming on main and program track,  easily expandable to wireless. Very easy to operate. Plenty of power to program and run sound engines.  One consideration is how elaborate and what size layout? 

[SmithSr]

OP, I have both entry level units, here's my result:

Expandability beyond the shelf layout?  Digitrax

Ease of use from ages 4 to 80:  NCE

 

The facts: Both systems expand, and both are easy to use. They just play to their strengths, which is normal.  You can't make a bad choice here.

 

 

 

 

 

[rrinker]

 Not as many as MRC though

     --Randy

[Adelie]

The BDL16/162/168 are great. I pretty much am wiring the entire layout through those with an eye on signaling and keeping track of what is in use in "semi-hidden" staging. The SE8C will play a major role in that.

I would compare this discussion with that of "which DSLR camera should I buy?"  Generally, the brand people start out with they stick with and hold a loyalty to.  Some see it as the "only" brand. Yet, they all have pluses and things they could do better.

When I get to the point I need an auto-reverser (and I will, it is just a matter of building that section of track), I am probably going to DCC Specialties (yes, Tony's Train Exchange will get more of my money).

I am committed to and happy with Digitrax.  Back when I first started looking, EasyDCC caught my eye it was LocoNet was what tipped me in this direction. That said, my suggestion is to download the manuals, try and go somewhere to play with the various systems, and realistically assess what fits your needs and wants better.

Oh, and download and install JMRI on  your computer and interface it to your system.  More good stuff to play with!

[gandydancer19]

OK, I will have to admit that the big thing Digitrax has going for it is their LocoNet. Even I, an NCE owner, love it. And that is why I am using it with my computer and NCE system at home, and wrote an article on how to set it up on a non Digitrax system. Digitrax also has three peripheral device that I like: the BDL-168 block detection board, the SE8C signal decoder, and the DS-64 turnout decoder. Some of the other devices - not so much because they still use relays. (PM-423 and AR-1)

[rrinker]

 I think the point here is that if you read comparison charts it's always listed as a negative that Digitrax is not upgradeable without sending the unit back. However, there has been exactly 1 system upgrade for the command stations and it was over 10 years ago. The difference is the way the Loconet works, it is a peer to peer design, not polled. What this means is there is as much smarts in any accessory device as there is in the command station (or rather, there CAN be). Prime example, the update to 29 functions from the old 12. There's no update chip for Digitrax because it doesn;t need one, in fact to handle the 12 functions, anything above F8 was ALREADY handled by the throttle. The DT402 throttles connect to any Digitrax system and immediately give you F0-F28.

 At the same time, there IS an upgrade program, which generally comes in at no extra cost over buying the higher feature unit up front - for example buy a DT402 throttle nad use it plugged in, then later decide to go with the radio system. The upgrade cost to make the DT402 a rasio throttle is the same as the price difference between the radio throttle and non-radio throttle, so there's no penalty for adding on later.

 The other thing about Loconet being peer to peer is that any connected device can see any and all messages. This sounds liek techno babble, and it kind of is, but it can be usful in many ways. For example, assuming you have a computer interface, and use JMRI. You build a control panel with buttons or simulated switches to operate turnouts. Someone comes along and changes the position of one with a throttle rather than calling the dispatcher to do it. With Digitrax, you will see the indicator on the JMRI panel change to match the command given by the throttle - it will be up to date. It also will update both the throttle display AND a JMRI panel if you control eg a DS-64 via local pushbuttons. No extra feedback devices needed. This all just happens.

 The other big pro about Loconet is there are no throttle IDs, no restrictions that "oh the computer interface has to use this cab ID, radio throttles should only use this range of cab addresses" etc that is present in all the polled systems. MRC in particular must have a very slow polling system since they even have a switch to set when you have 1-5 cabs vs 5+, ostensibly to improve response time by not polling for cabs that don't exist. That doesn't seem to be necessary on other polled systems though.

 Third thing going is that there is more third party support for Loconet than any of the other systems. There are commercial and DIY options for everything from the boosters and throttles to turnout controllers, signal decoders, and block sensors. You can in fact build a Digitrax Loconet DCC system and not use a single Digitrax branded product.

 These things I all learned by reading manufacturer web sites, reading manuals (every brand has online copies of their manuals), looking on the Yahoo Groups for each, and some of the Groups that cover multiple systems, and just in general searching. After learning the things I've stated here, I decided that Digitrax was definitely the best option for me. Through other trial and error I have determined that while the Digitrax system is great, their decoders tend to be so-so, and at the present I don;t have a single Digitrax decoder installed in anything. But that's the great thing about the DCC standards, I don;t have to use Digitrax decoders with my Digitrax system, and I don't.

                            --Randy

 

[stilson4283]

Additional throttles are supported by a communications bus.  There are throttle panels that you mount to your layout.  The back of there throttle panels are daisy chained to each other and back to the command station.  Extra throttles cost are similar depending on what features you want/net.  Both systems offer radio system rather than having throttle panels around a layout.  

So, I have Digitrax and started off with the Zephyr and now have the  Super Chief Xtra (with duplex Radio) and a PR3 for programming   I also belong to a modular group that runs NCE and  has a power cab for the test track so I have a lot of  experience with that system as well.  

First recommendation is to get hands on with any system you are looking to buy.  For me it is a Coke/Pepsi argument where it will come down to what preference you have.   I like the ability to run two locomotive at the same time with a digitrax DT400 series cab with the two knobs.  Some think the buttons are too small (I don't).  If you can, find the systems to play with and try out and see if there is something that comes up that is a deal breaker for you.  

Second point to consider is what do other modelers around use use?  

This goes into two areas, first if you are going to other peoples or a club layouts it might be wise to have the same system at home to be able to take throttles to and from set-ups.  

Second, if people around you use a particular set-up, then they will be able to help you with issues.  Even though both systems have great yahoo groups for answering questions it is always better if you can bring someone over to look at what the problem is. 

Third is how much of a trailblazer you want to be?  If you want to stick with what people around you have for the two reasons above, then go with what people around you know/use.  If you don't mind having to find out answer for yourself, then pick whatever system you like.

Like I said both systems have very active yahoo groups which can help with issues that come up.

So make you choice, either one will satisfy your need for a started system and can be used when you expand your system.  

Chris

[tstage]

Whatever, Steve...

[Stevert]

tstage

Wow, Steve.  You had to go all the way back to 2004 of the ProCab...just to find something negative about the Power Cab, which wasn't even out until 2006???  Impressive.

FYI: The upgrade chip for the Power Cab (V1.28 to V1.65) is $25.  The new Power Cab already comes with the new V1.65 chip, so no extra cost there.  Good for Digitrax for making their updates free and/or a convenient download for users.  $25 doesn't break my piggy bank; nor is 5 minutes of my time to make the upgrade an inconvenience.

And thanks for caring enough to list the same things that I enjoy about my Power Cab that you enjoy about your Digitrax system.  Caring is nice, isn't it?

Tom

Tom, I was responding to YOUR general statement, "For DCC systems, the only thing that generally needs upgrading is the OS", which I quoted in my reply.  Although you went on to describe your PowerCab update, there are certainly other "DCC systems" that a blanket statement like that would seem to apply to, and nothing in that opening statement of yours ruled any of them out.

With that in mind, and if you actually read the NCE material I quoted, you'd know those were bugs IN the 2004 PH-Pro eprom that were finally fixed BY the 2007 eprom, which sells for $35 and is the most current one NCE has issued for the PH-Pro.

Whether or not the $25 or even $35 will break your bank, or if five minutes will destroy your schedule, was never the question, although in my opinion bug fixes should be free. 

It was your blanket statement that implied that all DCC systems generally need OS (actually firmware) upgrades, and your later insistence that the NCE eproms ONLY "add a few more features" and do NOT include bug fixes.

[RideOnRoad]

zstripe

. . .But you'll have to admit, that you yourself, said,,I'M LIKE A SPONGE'. . .

Yeah, but I want to be a sponge, not a catalyst for reactions. 

[zstripe]

Richard,

I'm not a DCC user myself, only DC.. But I HAVE been following this thread and you did receive a lot more, then what your question was originally.. But you'll have to admit, that you yourself, said,,I'M LIKE A SPONGE''

LOL,

Cheers,

Frank

[RideOnRoad]

The OP's question (me) was not, "Which system should I choose?" but some specific questions about the specific systems.  The intent was to assist in the personal selection of a system, and the ownership of that decision.

[selector]

My usual input to these discussions is that all of the current large five or six suppliers to the market make very good, dependable, and useful DCC systems.  A person with a modicum of intellect should be able to have any one of them handed to him as a complete system, with instructions, and be enjoying his unique/quirky/non-intuitive/ergonomic nightmare system within about...oh...an hour.

They all work.  They all work well.   They all vary to some degree or another in appearance.  They all allow a unique throughput of amperage and voltage.  They all need a power supply or have one included.  The worst, if I could be permitted a one-time use of that word, is one I tried and rejected in seconds, and that is the original release of the EZ-Command from Bachmann.  To this day I don't know who with clout at that place gave it a thumbs up for release.  I was so disappointed that I haven't even kept up to any upgrades or development of it.

The fact is that, if YOU were handed a system that met your power needs, you would soon be a fan of it.

Period.

[tstage]

Wow, Steve.  You had to go all the way back to 2004 of the ProCab...just to find something negative about the Power Cab, which wasn't even out until early 2006???  Impressive.

FYI: The upgrade chip for the Power Cab (V1.28 to V1.65) is $25.  The new Power Cab already comes with the new V1.65 chip, so no extra cost there.  Good for Digitrax for making their updates free and/or a convenient download for users.  $25 doesn't break my piggy bank; nor is 5 minutes of my time to make the upgrade an inconvenience.

And thanks for caring enough to list the same things that I enjoy about my Power Cab that you enjoy about your Digitrax system.  Caring is nice, isn't it?

Tom

[Stevert]

tstage

Stevert

No opening the cases or waiting for an eeprom that costs $35 because it has one new feature in addition to a bunch of bug fixes that should be free.

Try $25 for the upgrade.  The "fixes" just add a few more features already found in the PH Pro throttle or the addition of the Smart Booster.

Enjoy your tiny little buttons...

The PowerCab upgrade may be $25, but the 2007 eprom for the PH-Pro is $35.  From the NCE Web site:

Update kits packaged for retail sale are available to dealers.  Kits include EPROM, installation instructions and system manual.MSRP  $34.95

And yes, it has bug fixes.  Also from the NCE Web site:

Fixes for bugs in the Dec 21, 2004 version of system software:
1. The AIU broadcast mode was always on regardless of the BROADCAST ENABLE
setting in the SET CMD STA menu.
2. OPS programming packets may have had intervening speed or function packets. This
resulted in the inability to program some CVs in sound decoders on the main.
3. Function group 2 commands sent to the consist address did not have bit 4 set resulting
in a function group 3 command being sent. The proper commands for F5-F8 are now
sent to consists. Function commands to lead, rear and individual locomotives were
always sent correctly.
4. The <BRAKE> button works again. When <BRAKE> (the default value of the ProCab
OPTION button) is pressed the current loco's speed is set to zero. This was broken in
the 2004 version. Apparently no one noticed.
5. Computer command 0x81 did not set the previous locomotive speed to 0 or clear out
any old function information when assigning a new loco to that cab. This has been
fixed. Assigning a consist to the cab by the lead or rear loco address will still not be
recognized as a consist by the cab. Assigning an advanced consist by its short consist
address will work.
6. When using the 0xA2 or 0xA4 binary commands for locomotive control, speed updates
for the locomotive controlled by the computer were occasionally displayed on ProCabs
attached to the cab bus. Which cab displayed the speed was random due to stack
corruption. This has been fixed.
7. The command station no longer prints redundant speed zero messages to the ProCab
LCD every time the thumbwheel is moved downward when the speed is already at 0.
This improves radio performance by reducing Tx buffer overflows in the radio base
station.
Fixes for bugs in older versions of system software:
1. 128 speed mode commands from 2-126 were sent 1 step lower than the display on the
cab indicated.
2. The HORN button would repeat after 4 seconds causing an interruption in long
duration horn sounds.

Also, the RB02 update that "improve(s) the performance of the radio, eliminates key drops, fixes annoying runaways, and fixes cab addresses 8, 18, and 49" is $25.

Again, regardless of how NCE prices their updates, Digitrax either hasn't needed any, or they are provided as free, user-installable downloads.

And yes, I'm IMMENSELY enjoying the power, convenience, expandability, upgradeability, and flexibility of my tiny little buttons.  Thanks for caring!

[tstage]

RideOnRoad

4.  Many are fiercely passionate about their selection.

And some more than others...

[tstage]

Richard,

Bottom line: Whatever system best meets your needs and goals is the best system for you.

To reiterate - if it's at all possible to try out a system firsthand, take full advantage of it.  It'll answer a number of questions...and probably raise a few more you haven't even thought of yet.

Tom

[RideOnRoad]

gandydancer19

. . .You also need to read this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/216089.aspx

Yup, already been following that one.  (Thus my initial comment about not wanting to start a firestorm.)  Also, have read http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/188495.aspx.  What I have determined so far is the following:

1.  Both NCE and Digitrax make good systems.

2.  Both systems are upgradable.

3.  If possible, it is best to try before you buy.

4.  Many are fiercely passionate about their selection.

Asking the qustion almost seems like walking into an IT shop and asking, "Which is better, Linix or Windows?"  I think I have made my decision, though I am not ready to make it public.

[tstage]

Stevert

No opening the cases or waiting for an eeprom that costs $35 because it has one new feature in addition to a bunch of bug fixes that should be free.

Try $25 for the upgrade.  The "fixes" just add a few more features already found in the PH Pro throttle or with the addition of the Smart Booster.

Enjoy your tiny little buttons...

[rrinker]

 I started with a Zephyr way back, and it's still the heart of my system, but I've added on quite a bit over the years as my layout grew. The technical details of Loconet are what convinved me, when I was looking at systems. It just does things that none of the others can do.

              --Randy

[gandydancer19]

I have NCE at home.  We run Digitrax at out club.  I like NCE better because it is more intuitive to use, the buttons on the throttles are larger, and the instructions are better.  Both systems have a good upgrade path.   If you are going to have a medium to large model railroad and you are thinking about operations with friends, the NCE 5 amp Power Pro system will be easier to set up than starting with a smaller system and then adding components to it to make it a larger system.

For a little extra money, you can use the Digitrax signal system with your NCE system, if you get that far.  Here is a link for that if you are curious:

http://www.waynes-trains.com/site/Signals/GettingStarted/SignalsGettingStarted1.html

The link at the very bottom of the page is what you are looking for.

You also need to read this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/216089.aspx

[woodone]

You asked why I like the system I have ( NCE Power Cab). I have had the system for over 6 years and have upgraded to a Smart booster (SB3a). I did have to change the Chip in the throtte once when I upgraded to the SB3a booster.

The system has worked flawlessly all these years. I love the ease of how the system operates.

Very user friendly!!

The Power Cab will support a second throttle via use the second port on the panel.

Read the manuals of the systems you are looking at and see how you can understand the instructions.

Some are a bit more techinical than others. 

 

[Stevert]

tstage

For DCC systems, the only thing that generally needs upgrading is the OS.  This is as easy as popping the back off the enclosure, replacing the old eprom with a new one, then closing it back up again.  I currently have the V1.28C chip in my Power Cab and am waiting to receive the V1.65 chip in the mail from NCE.  The whole procedure will probably take me ~5 minutes to complete.

That's not true for Digitrax.  The *only* firmware upgrade the DCS100 command station has ever needed was when the NMRA changed their spec from 9 functions to 12.  And Digitrax "future-proofed" that firmware upgrade by making those additional function commands pass-through.  There wasn't a further command station upgrade needed to allow 28 functions.

Also, most recent Digitrax products (Zephyr, DT402 throttles, UR92 radio receiver panels, PR3) are user-upgradeable via no-cost firmware downloads from Digitrax.

No opening the cases or waiting for an eeprom that costs $35 because it has one new feature in addition to a bunch of bug fixes that should be free.

[mlehman]

NCE will keep your PowerCab going unless you somehow figure out a way to physically destroy it. In practice, I've not heard any big issues with the configuration. Tom covered the ways that it can be set-up to walkaround.

I can't help with Digitrax, but will say something more about choosing in a moment.

However, this is a place to put in a plug for finding a vendor who you find gives you customer support you're comfortable with. You can learn DCC well enough on your own OR you find a good shop that will lead you until you get comfortable (which for a lot of people is never, so that's why's you want to be able to feel comfortable calling them up in six months.)

I would caution that there's something you really should decide on and that is which operating system you're comfortable with. In the long run, if you go for what seems like an easy upgrade path now or because it's cheaper, then end up hating the operating system -- well, lots of folks have been there, done that. It's a false economy in DCC to choose based on price, within reason of course, and not based on what YOU are comfortable with using.

[tstage]

RideOnRoad

My primary concern with the NCE Power Cab is that everything is contained in the cab.  First, if one component fails, you have to replace the whole unit.  Likewise there is no way to upgrade a single component.  My second concern is doesn't it mean that the cab must always be connected.  No moving the cab from one station to another while the trains are operating.  Finally, how do you add a second cab to the system?

Richard,

Yes, the Power Cab is the command station, booster, and throttle all rolled-up-into-one.  However, if one component fails, it does not necessitate tossing out the entire unit.  In most cases the unit can be sent back to NCE to repair a damaged component(s) then shipped back to you.

For DCC systems, the only thing that generally needs upgrading is the OS.  This is as easy as popping the back off the enclosure, replacing the old eprom with a new one, then closing it back up again.  I currently have the V1.28C chip in my Power Cab and am waiting to receive the V1.65 chip in the mail from NCE.  The whole procedure will probably take me ~5 minutes to complete.

The Power Cab comes with a 7' RJ12 cable.  While you must remain plugged into the PCP panel, that still gives you a 14' "tethered" range to walk around.  If you want to follow your train around the layout, the easiest solution is to buy an additional throttle.  This can be plugged into the RIGHT connector port of the PCP panel or into a UTP panel that is daisy-chained from the back of the PCP panel.

With an extra throttle, you can unplug and plug to your hearts content.  The only requirements that you need for adding an extra throttle is the throttle itself and giving it a cab address different from the Power Cab (usually "2").

In order to disconnect the Power Cab so that it doesn't shut down the layout, you would need to purchase the Smart Booster (SB3a, soon to be SB5) or upgrade to the PH Pro system.  Either way will cost you more than just buying another throttle.

With Digitrax, I am looking at the Zephyr Xtra.  Same concern here--everything in one case.  Also, how are additional cab supported?  Can I have a cab bus or do they need to be attached to the unit?

Again, an additional throttle would be the simplest solution with the Zephyr.  Throttles are generally connected to a panel, which is connected to a cab bus.

I am really thinking of this as an investment.  I want something that will grow with me over time.  If the best option is to wait and save my pennies to get something more than an entry model, I am willing to do that.

Richard, either system will serve you very well and can be upgraded.  And each system has its pluses and minuses.  I personally like the Power Cab for it's interface and intuitiveness but the Zephyr is a very good unit and the Digitrax Loconet has some real advantages - e.g. transponding and adding signals.  It would be best if you could test each one for yourself to see which one will best meet your need.

Tom

[Phoebe Vet]

I'm a Digitrax user.  I cannot answer your NCE questions.  Digitrax can add a second, or third, or 10th throttle by plugging it into Loconet via a UP5, or into the command station.  With the addition of a UR92, digital throttles can be wirelessly connected.  There are many more things that can be easily connected as your layout or goals grow.  Upgradability is Digitrax' biggest advantage.

[RideOnRoad]

I will try hard not to start another firestorm. I don't need to know which system sucks.  (Though, I would be interested in why people are happy with what they are using.)

I am in midst of deciding which DCC system to invest in.  I am looking at the entry systems from NCE and Digitrax.  My primary concern with the NCE Power Cab is that everything is contained in the cab.  First, if one component fails, you have to replace the whole unit.  Likewise there is no way to upgrade a single component.  My second concern is doesn't it mean that the cab must always be connected.  No moving the cab from one station to another while the trains are operating.  Finally, how do you add a second cab to the system?

With Digitrax, I am looking at the Zephyr Xtra.  Same concern here--everything in one case.  Also, how are additional cab supported?  Can I have a cab bus or do they need to be attached to the unit?

I am really thinking of this as an investment.  I want something that will grow with me over time.  If the best option is to wait and save my pennies to get something more than an entry model, I am willing to do that.