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P2K E8 shorting out?

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  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, August 18, 2012 5:21 AM

Bob,

It all makes sense.  No confusion.  You need one or the other, the correct truck or a refund.

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Knoxville, TN
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Posted by farrellaa on Friday, August 17, 2012 11:35 PM

Well, I finally got the replacement front truck assembly from Walthers, the one to replace the wrong one they sent in the first place. I had called Walther's again to see what was taking so long and they hadn't sent it yet, so I explained it again and he said it would go out that day. OK, it arrived yesterday and in my eagerness to get everything back together for a final time, I weathered both new trucks and installed them today. Well, they shorted out again??? So I removed them both and compared the first new one with the second new one (the supposedly correct front one this time!) and realized they sent me another rear truck. I removed both trucks again and matched up the new rear truck and one of the old front trucks and reinstalled them. NOW it runs as it should again. Guess I will call Walther's again on Monday and see if they have a front truck? I may have to send a photo of what it looks like as their part numbers apparently are not correct. It isn't that I have to have a new front truck now, it is the fact that I paid $20 for one and so far got 2 rear trucks! Maybe a refund would be better?? Is this confusing to anyone?

   -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:59 AM

Go for it!

 

Alton Junction

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Posted by farrellaa on Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:05 AM

The NYC E8 is back on track and running great, thanks to Running Bear's parts chassis. Turns out all it needed was the short shaft/universal drive.  I may even have enought parts left over to make another engine!

    -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, August 3, 2012 4:51 AM

farrellaa

Thanks for all your help guys. I have the problem solved now, getting a donor chassis from Scott Running Bear with all the needed parts. Should have it up and running next week.

     -Bob

Good for you.  That was my original suggestion  to get a new loco and use the current one for spare parts (or, in this case, vice versa).  A drop to a concrete floor will typically do too much damage to salvage the original unit.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by farrellaa on Thursday, August 2, 2012 10:47 PM

Thanks for all your help guys. I have the problem solved now, getting a donor chassis from Scott Running Bear with all the needed parts. Should have it up and running next week.

     -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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  • From: S.E. Adirondacks, NY
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Posted by modelmaker51 on Thursday, August 2, 2012 5:52 AM

Sorry, double posted -why can't we delete these anymore?

Jay 

C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1 

Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums 

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  • From: S.E. Adirondacks, NY
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Posted by modelmaker51 on Thursday, August 2, 2012 5:51 AM

ba&prr

By drive shaft I assume you mean the plastic part that goes from the motor's fly wheel to the gear box. If this is the part, measure the length of good one. Go to Athearn's web site and search the HO parts section. You might find one there. They show several they call dog bones. I know some Athearn parts are the same as the Proto line.           Joe

The drive line parts are in fact clones of Athearn's. You usually get better help from Athearn if you call them. A-Line offers a package of assorted Athearn type drive line parts, check with your LHS. You can also buy them directly from A-Line: http://www.ppw-aline.com/re-power.htm Scroll down to parts #12030 and #12052. Good stuff to have in your parts bin, you never know when you're going to need them.

Jay 

C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1 

Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums 

  • Member since
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Posted by ba&prr on Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:16 AM

By drive shaft I assume you mean the plastic part that goes from the motor's fly wheel to the gear box. If this is the part, measure the length of good one. Go to Athearn's web site and search the HO parts section. You might find one there. They show several they call dog bones. I know some Athearn parts are the same as the Proto line.           Joe

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Posted by farrellaa on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:06 PM

Cuda Ken; I guess I could have used a better choice of words there! Maybe 'comes together'!

I am conversing with Jeffery about an E7. Thanks,

    -Bob 

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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  • From: Maryville IL
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Posted by cudaken on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 7:37 PM

 Bob said "falls in places" I might not have used the word fall.

 Try PM'ing Jeffery here at he site. I send him a coupe of PK E6's that I did not want to mess with. I believe he parted them out for the motors. Not sure if they will interchange but worth a try.

 Cuda Ken

I hate Rust

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Posted by farrellaa on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:36 PM

My string of NYC smooth side passenger cars will be glad as well. Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. I am always happy when things fall into place.

    -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

  • Member since
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  • From: Georgia
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Posted by EmpireStateJR on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 1:59 PM

Excellent news As an E8 fan I'm glad this one will be back in service.

 

John R.

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  • From: Knoxville, TN
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Posted by farrellaa on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 10:48 AM

Well, I found the problem! The new front truck from Walthers was in fact a rear truck and therefor insulated for the wrong side. I put the old truck back on and now it doesn't short. I compared the new truck with the old one and could see the difference in the mounting bar being insulated on the opposite side. I also noticed on the old damaged truck that the forward wheel bearing was not sitting in the slot and therefore tilted the axle. This is what made it jump off the track. I swapped the forward axle/gear with the middle one and everything seems to be lined up correctly??? They were all in gage.  I put it back on the track and now the loco runs as it did but with only one truck powered (broken driveshaft). I don't notice any difference now from before the accident, but am sure it won't pull as much with only 3 axles powered. I called Walthers back and they said that many of the parts they got from Life Like weren't properly labeled and could see where a wrong part could have been sent. They are looking into getting the correct truck assembly and shipping it to me (no cost and no returning wrong truck assembly!). Unfortunately they don't have the drive shafts available any more. He suggested NWSL for possible replacement ones.

     -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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Posted by Train Modeler on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:26 AM

farrellaa

I have tried putting both trucks on the track seperately and they don't short, only when I place the chassis on the rear truck. This is what baffles me is that it didn't do this before I put the new front truck on. The engine did run before replacing the rear truck, but as I had mentioned it ran very badly and the front truck was jerking and the lead wheels would jump off the track. I assume that the decoder is OK since it worked then. I am now wondering if, since the front and rear trucks have different part numbers, the new truck is actually a rear truck and has the opposite side insulated for track pickup. I will try the old truck again and see if it shorts out. Don't know what else to look for?

    -Bob

For me shorts are most easily diagnosed with a trouble light or ohm meter and the process of elimination.  If the system shorts out just placing the unit on the tracks, then disconnect both sets of truck wires to the loco--gives you 4 free wires.   See if you have a short then.   If you do, you know it's in one of the trucks or in between the truck and chassis.   Since the loco was dropped the rear truck may have a bent electrical pickup which touches the chassis.   By eliminating various electrical paths and using a tester you can narrow down the possible short locations.    These are heavy locos with large fly wheels so the drop could have caused the flywheels or some part of the motor to come into contact with the chassis as well.    Lots of possibilities after a fall.    Also, if it's a metal truck component touching the chassis--it might be intermittent--occurring only when on curves for example--so move the loco and chassis around with your hand(rocking, etc) to try and make the short happen--if you need to .

Richard

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Posted by farrellaa on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:53 AM

I have tried putting both trucks on the track seperately and they don't short, only when I place the chassis on the rear truck. This is what baffles me is that it didn't do this before I put the new front truck on. The engine did run before replacing the rear truck, but as I had mentioned it ran very badly and the front truck was jerking and the lead wheels would jump off the track. I assume that the decoder is OK since it worked then. I am now wondering if, since the front and rear trucks have different part numbers, the new truck is actually a rear truck and has the opposite side insulated for track pickup. I will try the old truck again and see if it shorts out. Don't know what else to look for?

    -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: South Carolina
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Posted by Train Modeler on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:46 AM

From your description I would suspect the new truck first.

1. Undo the wires attaching the truck and then check with an ohm meter or trouble light to see if there is continuity between the two wires.

2. If there is continuity I would first visually check for any opportunity of a short.   If not visually apparent check to make sure the wheel axles aren't touching inside the gear/joiner.   Also check with NMRA gauge.

Richard

  • Member since
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Posted by EmpireStateJR on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:38 AM

farrellaa

I got a new P2K E8/9 a couple of weeks ago and converted it to DCC using an ESU Lokpilot dedoder, which worked great. Last week the loco took a nose dive off the back hidden track and bounced off the window sill and then on to the floor (no carpet!). I managed to get everything back together but it wouldn't run very well. It kept shaking the front truck and then would jump off the rails. I saw some damage to the truck so I ordered a new one from Walthers. It came today and I installed it hoping all would be good again! Well, now the loco shorts out the DCC system when put on the tracks. I looked at all the  wiring and don't see anything wrong, I only soldered the red and black track pickup wires to the new truck. I removed the rear truck and found the drive shaft broken and removed it, thinking it was jamming the drive line. Same results, shorted out. Finally I took the worm gear and bearings out of the rear truck and placed the truck on the tracks with the front trucks already on the track, and as soon as the pin on the chassis touched the metal bar across the truck (where the mating hole is) it shorted the system. I don't know what else could be causing this unless there is internal damage to the rear truck as well. Anyone familiar with the P2K E8's will understand what I am trying to describe. Any suggestions short of ordering a new rear truck assembly as well?

Thanks in advance,

    -*Bob

Hello Bob,

I am sitting looking at a P-2000 E8A (DC) with the shell off as I read and rely to your post. If I am correct the motor should be isolated from the chassis especially for DCC. (If I'm wrong then disregard the following) Since you have checked the rear truck and it does not short your dcc system when placed on the track alone I think you can rule that out as the cause. I would look for a wire touching the metal chassis, are the engine mounts allowing the motor to have contact with the chassis and closely  examine the dcc decoder for possible damage.

Good Luck with your repair.

John R.

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:29 AM

Since it ran (poorly) and did not short before you replaced the truck, I would look there.  Are you sure the red and black wires are connected to the same sides as they are on the rear truck?  It's an easy enough mistake to make and would cause the shorting problem.

If that's not it, I would remove the truck completely and put it on the tracks without the engine.  You may have a defective truck, even though it's brand new.  It should not short.  If that works, put it back on the engine and try that before you rewire.  Do the wiring one at a time, testing in between.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:59 AM

I have a couple of those P2K E8/9 diesels, and they really are nice locos and great runners.

If you bought it new a couple of weeks ago, hopefully, you could replace it with another new one although all of the P2K E8/9 locos seem to be discontinued at this point.

If you could replace it, I would recommend that you euthanize it and put it out of its misery, holding onto it for spare parts.  Considering the fall that it took, it could be next to impossible to repair.  For that matter, the decoder may be damaged.

Just a thought.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by farrellaa on Monday, July 30, 2012 10:08 PM

good point Mike; unfortunately I checked all the wheels, even the ones on the new truck. All were OK.

Thanks,

   -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

  • Member since
    January 2008
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Posted by mreagant on Monday, July 30, 2012 10:03 PM

While I'm not sure from your description of all the damage and work if this will get to the problem, but I went through something like this with a P2K E7.  Long story short--make sure ALL the wheels in the truck are in gauge because such a tumble can drive the axles together within the truck so that they touch and thereby cause the short.  You can easy/gently pry them out and into gauge.  It may work.

Mike

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Knoxville, TN
  • 2,055 posts
P2K E8 shorting out?
Posted by farrellaa on Monday, July 30, 2012 9:53 PM

I got a new P2K E8/9 a couple of weeks ago and converted it to DCC using an ESU Lokpilot dedoder, which worked great. Last week the loco took a nose dive off the back hidden track and bounced off the window sill and then on to the floor (no carpet!). I managed to get everything back together but it wouldn't run very well. It kept shaking the front truck and then would jump off the rails. I saw some damage to the truck so I ordered a new one from Walthers. It came today and I installed it hoping all would be good again! Well, now the loco shorts out the DCC system when put on the tracks. I looked at all the  wiring and don't see anything wrong, I only soldered the red and black track pickup wires to the new truck. I removed the rear truck and found the drive shaft broken and removed it, thinking it was jamming the drive line. Same results, shorted out. Finally I took the worm gear and bearings out of the rear truck and placed the truck on the tracks with the front trucks already on the track, and as soon as the pin on the chassis touched the metal bar across the truck (where the mating hole is) it shorted the system. I don't know what else could be causing this unless there is internal damage to the rear truck as well. Anyone familiar with the P2K E8's will understand what I am trying to describe. Any suggestions short of ordering a new rear truck assembly as well?

Thanks in advance,

    -*Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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