That could definitely also be a problem. If the tracks beyond the frog gap have the feeders connected crossed compared to the feeders at the poitn end, when the loco hits the frog, the Juicer won;t be able to figure out which way to set the polarity since it needs to be one way to match the point side and the opposite way to match the diverging side - thus a short. But this should also cause a short just running a loco through without the FJ connected, as soon as the isolated area of the frog was spanned.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
sighchris Max, You might be correct that I might not need a frog juicer for the Fast Track turnouts but not sure how to power the turnout so the train can go through it. Thanks
Max,
You might be correct that I might not need a frog juicer for the Fast Track turnouts but not sure how to power the turnout so the train can go through it.
Thanks
Without a diagram of how you have things wired, it is hard to tell by the description you give. However, generally a turnout gets its power from the point end. Assuming that you have the turnout in question connected to a siding, if you have the frog gapped/insulated on both sides (this would be 4 gaps total) you would need to provide power to the rail on the siding beyond the gap. If you have no power connection to the rail on the main line beyond that gap, you'd need to have a connection there also. The straight and diverging turnout stock rails will have power through them from the power connection at the turnout point end, and this will feed both rails beyond the turnout assuming that your rail joiners are installed correctly. The two closure rails (these are the rails that are connected to the moving points) will be power fed by whichever point rail is contacting its associated stock rail.
If the frog is gapped at both ends, and with the frog juicer not connected, it should be electrically dead. So as Randy R. mentioned you will not be able to get a short wheelbase engine through. But if you have any sort of modern diesel to use for the test, it should go through easily even with the dead frog because the diesel will pickup current from both ends.
One other thing comes to mind. I'm not sure I understand how you have things connected since you talk about having connections to this or that bus (or track). Check to see if you have any of these connections crossed. Even though you have DCC it is still possible to have a short due to a phase difference between power connections. I believe you said you don't have a meter, so no sense giving a description on how to check for the phase difference other than to say that you need to check the connections carefully.
I think you might be correct. The issue might be with the turnout. It looks like I am going to have to rebuild the turnout and redo it again :(
Everything is gapped correctly on the turnout per the Fast Tracks Instruction.
1. The input feeder wires are connected to a different section of track that are then connected to the main .bus line.
2. I have feeders wires on both rails of the turnout connected to the main bus line.
3. i have feeder wires on the two rails above the frog. But when I connect to the main bus line with these two wires no power or short.
4. the frog is isolated on both sides of it.
Chris
Hello everyone! I am sorry for the delay in getting back with you. I travel for work. So it sometimes takes a few days to get back to my hobby stuff.
I will answer everyone back on the weekend. the comments have really helped so far. I think it might be the turnout. I may have to rebuild them to work better
Chris,
You have quite a few people here trying to help with your problem. They have ASKED YOU some questions. You need to answer up and post some ANSWERS here.
Right now we are all guessing because WE NEED MORE INFORMATION FROM YOU.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
If the gaps are cut porperly, both in the raila nd in the PC ties per the Fast Tracks instructions, for a #6 and larger the dead area can be pretty big, so a loco with less than ideal pickup, or a short one, might need power to the frog to prevent stalling - but that's power loss, not a short.
One thing that could be a proble is if the power input to the FJ is coming from a different section of the track bus than the entry and exits of the turnout - liek if the FJ is connected directly to the booster and the track is powered through a circuit breaker. It's possible that something like this could confuse it. Or if this is an original Frog Juicer and the system is low power, Prodidgy Express or PowerCab. Duncan made a special version originally for low poer systems, that has no been repalced by a universal unit that works with all. It is pretty much impossible to miswire one, since there are 6 outputs, it's not really possible to confuse input and output, and polarity on the input does not matter because the whole point is the juicer will connect the correct polarity to the frog.
jalajoie maxman I doubt it is possible to miss wire a Frog Juicer. Two wires from the bus line and it is irrelevant which one goes into which input, and only one wire goes to the frog. Impossible to be more simple than that. As you say could be a faulty turnouts.
maxman I doubt it is possible to miss wire a Frog Juicer. Two wires from the bus line and it is irrelevant which one goes into which input, and only one wire goes to the frog. Impossible to be more simple than that. As you say could be a faulty turnouts.
I think I agree. However, he did say that he doesn't get the short until the loco is at the turnout, and then it goes away when the loco is pulled back. Many of the responses to the OP suggest that there is a turnout issue, not a frog juicer issue. But the implication from the original post is that there was not a problem until the F.J. was connected. I don't think he needs that frog juicer to run an engine through the turnout if the turnout is constructed/gapped correctly. So I just think there needs to be some clarification as to what is exactly happening.
Jack W.
The OP said that when the engine gets to the turnout he has a short, and when he pulls the engine away the short goes away. My question would be when the loco gets to the turnout without the frog juicer connected does he or doesn't he have a short. Seems to me that would determine if the turnout construction is the problem or the frog juicer wiring is the problem.
Fast Tracks turnouts built per the instructions and videos are NOT power routing and have isolated frogs. You will need feeders beyond the frog as the cut there to isolate the frog means thoe two diverging frog rails won;t have power. Unless they changed stuff since I bought my kit. The rail to the frog needs to be cut before and after the frog, AND gaps need to be filed in the copper cladding of trhe PC ties, all shown in the instructions. Miss a step here or there and there will be problems.
wp8thsub A frog juicer can also be used to ensure electrical flow on a power routing/powered frog turnout, to bypass the contact between the points and the stock rail that may occasionally fail. In this type of installation, the juicer will reverse immediately once the turnout is thrown if contact is made with the stock rail, or once a loco or car rolls onto the points if the points didn't make contact with the stock rail. On a power routing turnout, the juicer supplies power to the entire point/closure rail/frog assembly. All electrical gaps associated with such turnouts would still need to be present as with typical wiring practices.
A frog juicer can also be used to ensure electrical flow on a power routing/powered frog turnout, to bypass the contact between the points and the stock rail that may occasionally fail. In this type of installation, the juicer will reverse immediately once the turnout is thrown if contact is made with the stock rail, or once a loco or car rolls onto the points if the points didn't make contact with the stock rail. On a power routing turnout, the juicer supplies power to the entire point/closure rail/frog assembly. All electrical gaps associated with such turnouts would still need to be present as with typical wiring practices.
Yep, that could work too. Either way there is a gap missing somewhere in the OP's setup.
You have to make absolutely sure that there is no other way for power to get to the frog or section of rail(s) except through the juicer output. If there's any other sort of connection, the reversing circuit cannot actually reverse the polarity to remove the short circuit.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
gandydancer19 First, the Fast track turnouts are power routing as mentioned before, and the frogs are not gaped or isolated. I think they need to be for the Juicer to work.
First, the Fast track turnouts are power routing as mentioned before, and the frogs are not gaped or isolated. I think they need to be for the Juicer to work.
Um, no. Er, exactly. (Oops, misread what you were saying! Emphasis added above. Sorry.)
If the frog is not gapped and isolated, attaching a frog juicer to it will instantly short everything out.
If the frog is not isolated from the point rails, the switch will act like what is termed a selective power routing switch. Only the route that is actually lined will have power. Both rails for the other route will be the same polarity and no current will flow. The frog is "routing" the power for the lined route. You DO NOT use a frog juicer in this situation.
Frog juicers are for powering a properly gapped and isolated frog, for a switch that is NOT "power routing" (all routes are always live). In this case, the frog is isolated and not routing power, and electrically dead. The frog rails beyond the switch must have their own power feeders at some point to have power. The point rails can be jumpered to the stock rails so they always have power. The frog juicer is used to supply power to the isolated frog to eliminate the dead spot. It's basically just a small auto-reversing circuit that automatically flips the polarity of the frog when something hits it and would be causing a short circuit.
You have a good point Elmer, I wonder if both diverging route of the frog are isolated. I asume they are but a verification is in order.
Second, the Hex Juicer is a relatively new product, and as far as I am concerned, not fully documented in its many possible installations, mainly because there are so many variables to consider.
For us to properly give you good help, we need to see the track plan of the switches, where your rail gaps are, and where your track feeders are on the turnouts.
My first thoughts are that the turnouts should be wired like they would be if using DC. Then apply the DCC voltage to the same places that DC would be applied to. Sometimes this makes things easier to understand.
I think we should reread carefully the OP postings. He uses DCC, he uses Fast Track turnouts which are all rail frogs and power routing, his wiring is correct. I would follow Rob's advice to test each frog individually. My opinion is that this is a defective Frog Juicer.
MisterBeasley ba&prr: Is the frog on each turnout insulated? If they are check each one to make sure. Joe That's the right question to ask. Disconnect the frog from the Juicer, and measure the voltage at the frog relative to each of the rails. It should read zero with no Juicer. Throw the points the other way and test again. If you get a non-zero reading in any of these, the frog is not isolated and the Juicer won't work.
ba&prr: Is the frog on each turnout insulated? If they are check each one to make sure. Joe
Is the frog on each turnout insulated? If they are check each one to make sure. Joe
That's the right question to ask. Disconnect the frog from the Juicer, and measure the voltage at the frog relative to each of the rails. It should read zero with no Juicer. Throw the points the other way and test again. If you get a non-zero reading in any of these, the frog is not isolated and the Juicer won't work.
Rob Spangler
ba&prr Is the frog on each turnout insulated? If they are check each one to make sure. Joe
When you measured the voltage earlier, was it with respect to the opposite rail, or the adjoining rail?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
sighchris 1. I have a six input Frog Juicer that can handle up to 6 switches 2. each switch has a wire soldered to the frog 3. connected two wires from the bus line that go into the two output of the Frog juicer
1. I have a six input Frog Juicer that can handle up to 6 switches
2. each switch has a wire soldered to the frog
3. connected two wires from the bus line that go into the two output of the Frog juicer
Something sounds backwards and/or incomplete about your installation.
There are two inputs to the juicer from the track bus which connect to the screw terminals on one edge of the juicer card. There is one output from the juicer to each frog, which in your case should connect to the six screw terminals on the opposite corner of the card from the track input. That's it as far as the wiring goes. Double check the wiring diagram and ensure each wire is attached to the proper location.
If there's power to the juicer, you should see an LED for each reversing curcuit on the juicer PC board. If you watch the juicer while a loco goes over a frog, you should see the corresponding LED on the juicer change from green to red or vice versa.
If the above happens, the juicer is working properly, and your problem is likely with something else. Otherwise you may have installed something incorrectly, in which case it would be a good idea to disconnect everything from the juicer and reinstall and test each wire, starting with the track input and checking that all the LEDs come on. If they do, connect and test each frog individually.
Digitrax and Fast Tracks Switches
I got switched around in my post. I have it like it should be described with their instructions.
When I pull back the train the short clears
13 -15 before frog with no train
under 1 v with train
after short 13- 15
What brand of DCC system do you have, and what brand and model turnout are you having trouble with?
The Frog Juicer should have 2 inputs that are connected to the bus, and 6 outputs that go to the frogs. Your original post has that backwards. If you've got your inputs and outputs switched in the wiring and not just the post, that would be a problem.
Have you tried a different output from the Frog Juicer?
If you pull the train back after the short, does the short clear?
Do you have a voltmeter? If so, check the voltage on the frog with no train, while it's working, and then again after the short.
The Frog Juicer data on the Tam Valley Depot web site does not mention this, but you might try switching the two wires that are the input to it. Perhaps there's a phase difference problem between the device and DCC input signal.
If all else fails, contact Tam Valley Depot and ask them for help.
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/support/frogjuicers.html
You don't mention it in your question, but I hope you understand that the Frog Juice is for use only with a DCC powered layout.
Remove that extra wire you added to each rail after connecting the Frog Juicer.
Hey Guys;
I have not a electronics genius but having some issues with this simple gadget above. Not working properly so I must be doing something wrong.
Here is the bottom-line is description:
That is all that the wiring diagram says.....
Now when the train comes to the switch it stops and short circuits.
So, I decide to solder one wire to each rail and connect that to the bus line and continue with the above process. Guess what that did not work....
So now I am completely lost....
Please help a electronics "not so genius"
Appreciate it