Having an underpowered supply might not damage the booster/command station, but it sure cna cause erratic operations - locos not responding, or runaways. And even contribute to melting wheels since the 8 amp booster won't trip because it never can supply 8 amps with only a 5 or 6 amp input.
Yes using circuit breakers to make multiple lower current districts out of the 8 amps will stop the wheel metling. But it doesn;t address the fundamental issue of getting an 8 amp power suppyl for the thing. 5 amps is common, there are at least 3 commercial ones readily available, from NCE, Digitrax, and Tony's. The only oen DIgitrax has is the big 20 amp monster, to which you need to add 8 amp circuit breakers (and it could power 2x 8 amp boosters). Most 8 and 10 amp supplies end up being DIY jobs - and if you are NOT comfortable with 120VAC wiring you should not attempt to make one fo these. Proper fusing is important, as it making sure there are absolutely no loose wires. I am fairly comfortable workign on stuff like this and I still prefer to use something already made instead of buying a big transformer and wiring it up myself. There's at least a slight level of comfort using something that carries a UL listing vs a DIY system I'm 99.9% sure I did everything right on. Maybe I'm paranoid but I'd prefer NOT to have a house fire.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
You really should have a power supply that will put out at least the current limits of your Command Station. Every booster is equipped with an internal circuit breaker set to trip at the maximum current limit. Power a 5 amp booster with a 3 amp supply and the booster's circuit breaker may not trip. It will just keep supplying 3 amps to the short until whatever shorted is finally burned away. Either that or the power supply will overload/overheat. Either way, the outcome would not be good.
rrinker Just ask Ken Of course that was a cheap MRC 8 amp booster and some inadequate wiring. Still... -Randy
Just ask Ken
Of course that was a cheap MRC 8 amp booster and some inadequate wiring. Still...
-Randy
yes, it is such a shame that nobody makes breakers for our hobby, wait a minute though, THEY DO. also, you can run an 8 amp system on a 5 amp supply, you just end up with 5 amps at the rails ( minus the losses ). i use my zephyr with a 1 amp wall wart on the clubs test track on running nights. i run my 5 amp chief from a 10 amp supply . no problems either way. i'm sure the chief would run a couple of loco's with a 1 amp supply too. there is no need to look for an 8 amp PSU just because the command station is 8 amps. even digitraxs own big unit is 20 amps!!! do you think they'd be supplying a unit that big with your litigation culture if they thought it was a problem?? thought not. if you want to be ultra careful you could fit an inline fuse or breaker,
edit, i hadn't considered any voltage drop may harm an underpowered system?? if it does? would you notice slower movement and dimmer lights when things started to struggle? maybe a permanent amp meter inline to keep an eye on things like on the front of the digitrax PSU???
rrinker Just ask Ken Of course that was a cheap MRC 8 amp booster and some inadequate wiring. Still...
Ahh those were the days, the hum of the MRC welder, the lights dimming in the garage, the scent of burnt DH decoders..........memories........
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I have used an 8 amp Digitrax for several years and have never had it damage anything. It trips just as it should when a short occurs.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The problem with 8 amp systems is getting a power supply. 8 amp power supplies aren;t common. I don't care what Tony's claims, the MagnasForce 615 is NOT an 8 amp power supply, it can;t supply 8 amps at reasonable voltage. Their own test graph shows it. And you cannot use a 5 amp power supply with an 8 amp booster - you're askign for all sorts of trouble if you do. The booster won't shut down until the load exceeds 8 amps, but the poor 5 amp power supply will be dropping voltage up tilt he point it finally drops out. And running ANY sort of a computer (the PIC microcontroller in the DCS200 is most defintiely a computer) on low voltage is asking for all sorts of wierd issues.
Aside from 120 loco slots vs 10, there is very little a DCS100/200 can do that a Zephyr cannot. The Zephyr is probably the most full-featured command station for the money anywhere.
i said get the 8 amp chief because for the minor increase in cost the extra 3 amps worth over the 5 amp version ( more than a whole zephyr extra! ) makes buying a 5 amp system almost pointless, and down the line 8 amps may be useful. what annoys me about the zephyr, and in some ways helps make it DCC for a new convert and leaving them aspects of DC is the throttle. if you use the jump ports, all the throttles will have potentiometer control, so just like DC so it makes it familliar. but once you start adding DT400's into things, you suddenly get encoders for speed control. the encoders self match to a locos speed when you re-select it once you have set it rolling, the zephyr doesn't do this for you ( it does if you use a DT plugged into it ). you have to constantly think 'how fast' and then guess with the control knob to try and match it. not a huge issue if you have realistic accel and decell set as it adjusts gently, but with none of those set it is jolt jolt etc. i would have prefered the zephyr to have an encoder and a big round dial like on the UT throttles so it just speed matched on reaquisition of a loco. do the UT throttles have encoders or pots? if pots then maybe the zephyr is not so different, but i have only had controllers with encoders and not having to guess where to set the throttle was a big plus.
all that said, i'd still buy a chief ( 5 amp if you must ) and set that as the command station and demote the zephyr to a booster. the chief is a better spec'd command station than the zephyr and would give better functionallity than keeping the zephyr as the command station and using the DB from an empire builder as a booster.
I agree that the best way for the OP to expand would be to add an Empire Builder to the existing Zepher. Keep the Zepher as a command station. You can pick up a cheep new/used Empire Builder with a DT400 on Ebay. Send the DT400 to Digitrax to be upgraded to DT402R or DT402D.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Why would the OP need 8 amps to run 2 or 3 locos at the same time? He's not using G scale.
And 8 amps at the source won't mean less voltage drop at the destination - voltage drop is a factor of the current draw of the load, NOT the current source. If the wire table shows a given length of a certain wire drops half a volt with a 2 amp load, changing the source from 2.5 amps to 8 amps won't make a bit of difference.
There's also no real reason to sell the Zephyr even if he did buy a new set. The Zephyr can still work as a throttle plus provide 2.5 amps for a seperate power district or accessory decoders. In fact based on the OP's listed requirements, if he buys ANYTHIGN extra it should be a Super EMpirer Builder set and retaint he Zephyr as the command station. This is what I am doing for my layout, I will nver have more than 10 locos running. I don;t really need the 5 amps to run my trains, either, but all my turnouts will be pwoered by Tam Valley Quad stationary decoders and RC servos. So the output of the DB150 ges to my PM42 which divides the layout into 4 power districts, the zephyer will be mounted over my workbench and its 2.5 amps will power the accessory decoders, plus I still have the dedicated program track since the Zephyr is still the command station.
i would say sell the zephyr and just buy the duplex 8amp chief, there is a saving to made in buying a set rather than the 2 actual items you want. the sets seem to offer better discounts than individual items. and selling a zephyr should be an easy task.
Well that's new, the UR91 does not come with the power supply. If the UR92 has the PS14 included, it's actually a BETTER deal than the UR91, UR91 + PS14 would cost MORE than the UR92.
Yes it does. I know mine did.
rrinker Did you get a power supply for the UR92? You can use your own if you have one, but the PS14 already had the proper conenctor to plug right in.                            --Randy Â
 Did you get a power supply for the UR92? You can use your own if you have one, but the PS14 already had the proper conenctor to plug right in.
                           --Randy
Â
Phoebe Vet Cisco Kid. Hope you all are right about not needing a power booster for the additon of 225 feet of track....I didn't order one, because I will be running only 2 locos at most at once. The need for a booster is determined by the number of trains and lighted cars on the layout, not by the amount of track. If you want to protect individual sections of track independently you can get the benefits of short circuit management and auto reversing without adding more boosters by using PM-42s at far less cost!
Cisco Kid. Hope you all are right about not needing a power booster for the additon of 225 feet of track....I didn't order one, because I will be running only 2 locos at most at once.
Hope you all are right about not needing a power booster for the additon of 225 feet of track....I didn't order one, because I will be running only 2 locos at most at once.
The need for a booster is determined by the number of trains and lighted cars on the layout, not by the amount of track.
If you want to protect individual sections of track independently you can get the benefits of short circuit management and auto reversing without adding more boosters by using PM-42s at far less cost!
Well yes and no. Eventually the layout can get so large that even #12 bus wires have substantial voltage drop. In which case the only answer is a second booster, even if the total nmber of runnign locos doesn't exceed the capacity of the first one.
Did you get a power supply for the UR92? You can use your own if you have one, but the PS14 already had the proper conenctor to plug right in.
Well now,
Along with $1700 worth of tracklaying materials I have just added the DT402D and UR92 to my order with NWRS store in Surrey, British Columbia. I am quite excited to get this radio system up and running, but it will be a while until the new track is laid.
Onward and upward!
jamnest If you are going to make the upgrade to wireless go to radio. As for using a laptop/PR3/Decoder Pro for a throttle, I use mine to orbit trains when I am working on the layout or building kits at the workbench.
If you are going to make the upgrade to wireless go to radio.
As for using a laptop/PR3/Decoder Pro for a throttle, I use mine to orbit trains when I am working on the layout or building kits at the workbench.
Assumign the laptop has wireless in it, if you have an iPod Touch, iPhone, or Android phone you can use that as an RF wireless throttle with JMRI as the intermediary. Very slick. I have 2 apps on my iPhone I paid money for - and the WiThrottle app is one of them.
It's probably actually cheaper to buy an iPod Touch than to get a DT402D and UR92 - although there is no programmign capability or anything with the WiThrottle app, it's strictly a train controlling device.
I'd look hard at the radio options. Looking at the layout plan; for infrared, you would need at least two UR90's. Maybe three depending on obstructions. That would bring the cost of the IR receivers up in the area of one radio panel. Any currently offered Digitrax item (and the older products too) will work with your Zephyr. Just connect a loconet cable and enjoy.
Martin Myers
Cisco KidLooks like that Digitrax infrared setup will be the cat's meow!
It most certainly is the least expensive way to add wireless. You would more than likely be able to pick up a used UR90 on the cheap on eBay as folks upgrade to the new Duplex. As I said above, I ran the IR for quite some time with some success, but please be aware of its limitations as some folks really do not like it very much.
1. You really do need line of sight for the throttle to work well. By that I mean actually pointing the throttle end towards the UR90. In my case I placed it up high and it was not too much of an issue for me, but make no mistake, it is directional, just like TV IR remotes.
2. With the UR90 you must plug into the loconet to acquire a locomotive. The UR90 has a loconet jack on the front, or you might want to add some UP5 panels as well for convenience.
3. Number of functions is limited to F0-F8, so if you are running sound and want to use more functions the UR90 can only transmit the first 8 even though the throttle may have more, (Note when plugged in the full number of throttle functions are available.
Anyway, I just want to be sure you understand what the IR solution can and can not do,
Yes, thanks. That is an interesting way to expand.
I have been using PR3 and Decoder Pro for a number of years now, but I don't really want to use my laptop for a throttle.....Looks like that Digitrax infrared setup will be the cat's meow!
I have expanded my Digitrax system by buying on Ebay. You have a Zepher which can remain your command station. If you need more power look for an Empire Builder set on Ebay. The empire builder comes with a DB150 which you can use as a booster and you will also get a throttle, usually DT400 with the set. I picked up two DT400 cheep on Ebay and sent them to Digitrax to be upgraded to DT402D.
I still have the DCS100 command station that I purchased over ten years ago, 2 DT100R, 2 DT300R, 2 DT402D and one UT4D in use on the layout. I did not buy these all at once but added on as I needed to expand. I also have a MS100 (Desktop PC) and PR3 (Laptop PC) computer interface, with Decoder Pro Software (FREE) you can use you computer to program decoders and as a throttle to run trains on your layout.
I would agree that wireless is the best way to go.
Great info, gentlemen.
Thanks for the good news about the booster. That makes sense now that I think about it.
LIve and learn....always from this forum
(Just noticed that my expansion was given in inches...= 12 feet. Of course you can see that I meant 150 feet )
Unless you are planning to run a lot more locos simultaneously than you did before, you won't need an extra power booster. Just don't skimp on the wire size so you don't end up with voltage drop problems. Physical size of the layout is only related to power consumption in a roundabout way - a physically larger layout can handle more trains running on it, but if you don't actually run more trains, you don't need more power. An 8x10 layout with 10 locomotives running at the same time needs more power than a 20x30 layout with just 2.
In extreme cases a booster might be necessary just to prevent voltage drop - an extreme example being something like a 20x100 foot layout - even with just 2 or 3 locos running, and even using #12 wire as the main bus, you could have voltage drop problems - assuming it's a 20x100 'donut' shape, with no wires crossing through the middle, your wire runs would be approximately 120 feet in each direction. Better to add an additional booster or two and keep the wire runs shorter even though you don't 'need' the extra amps.
Regarding the booster question, that may not be needed. It all depends on how many locos you want to run at once. I would start by running a new power bus under the new section and make sure it is well connected with feeders to the track. In the first instance I would just connect this bus to the existing layout power bus and run the whole thing off the Z. If it turns out you need a booster, then break the two sections apart, put a DB150 booster on the new section and link it to the Z with the loconet cables. The Z would still remain the command station.
Hi Cisco,
I have a Zephyr and have added wireless. It is really easy to do, just purchase a wireless panel, there are 3 options for this, and a wireless throttle. As can be seen from the above posts, you need to make sure that your throttle is compatible with the appropriate wireless panel, as Digitrax has more than one wireless type.
The UR90 panel is infra red. I used this for some time quite successfully but the throttle needs to have line of sight. Any of the Digirax throttles will work with this panel as they all have IR as standard.
The UR91 is the older simplex radio system. In addition to that you need a throttle that ends with R so an older DT400R or the new DT402R and the UT4R would all be compatible. You have to plug in to acquire a locomotive.
The UR92 is the new duplex throttle (no plug in needed) and it works with the DT402D and the UT4D throttles.
In all cases, all you do is run a loconet cable from the Zephyr to the panel and attach the appropriate power supply to the panel, and you have yourself a wireless system.
Finally, if cost is a consideration and wireless is not critical, you can simply add a UP5 panel or two and use a tethered throttle like the DT400, DT402 or UT4. These just plug into the panels, and you can disconnect them and move around the layout and plug into another panel and resume control of the loco. Again, these just daisy chain using the loconet cables.
It is really easy to expand the Zephyr, just plug in the new components and away you go.
Dave:
The DT-402D goes with the UR92.
(D as in duplex). The R goes with the UR91.