Hi!
I've got another post going asking about the reasons to go DCC (or not). After digesting all I can on the subject, I am still on the fence. To get better educated, I want to review specific systems so I can figure out what is best for me, do a cost estimate (I'm a retired analyst), find the best supplier, and learn as much as I can about the "chosen' system. This will obviously get me "ready to jump in" when I make the decision to do so.
My problem is that there is no "Consumers Report" on DCC systems. In other words, I have not as yet found an unbiased review (be it from ads, hobby shops, or individuals) on the available companies and systems. Of course ads tout their own company, hobby shops promote what they sell, and individuals tend to support strongly what they have (or they hate what they have). Of course I have the Kalmbach DCC books, and while they give a good analysis of each system, they don't help me figure out what is the "best buy" or "most reliable company / support", or will serve my situation best.
I estimate going to DCC - and doing it right - will run about $2k. So obviously I want to make the best overall decision as to who to go with, so I don't waste money, time, and get unneeded stress.
Surely many of you experienced the same dilemma when you converted, and I would really like to hear about your decision making process - and if you are happy with the result.
Thank you,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Tony's has a pretty good comparison section for them. Not very biased at all.http://tonystrains.com/productcompare/index.htmGlad to see you revised your cost estimate up a bit. $2k is probably a more realistic #.
Loathar,
Thanks for the input, I'll pull their report after I post this. You know, I really don't mind spending the money, but don't want to go through the "should of, would of, and could of" that sometimes comes about when committing to a long term thing - be it a DCC system, car, couch, or wife for that matter!
Thanks again,
Well Mobilman44, it's kinda like saying "I want to buy a new car. Which one is best, a GM, a Ford or a Chrysler??" They're all good or they wouldn't have been around as long as they have been. Each one has a variety of products (cars, trucks, minivans) each with their own options, and their own strengths and weaknesses. I could say my little two-door Chevy is a great car for commuting to work and getting around town, but that won't help you much if you're looking for a big pickup to haul hay and feed sacks around your farm.
Same thing with DCC. Lenz, NCE, Digitraz, MRC and the others all make good quality reliable systems. Each has options and strengths and weaknesses. If programming on the main is important to you with a wireless throttle, you need to check out which systems offer that. If being able to 'toggle' between locomotives, rather than having to input the ID number every time is important, check that out. It's not really a matter of quality or reliability as it is tailoring the DCC system to your wants/needs.
David,
To quickly answer some of the questions....
- Most all the time I will operate the RR alone, with one other person occasionally.
- I would at max operate 9/10 units at the same time. That sounds crazy, but I will often run two all powered ABBA consists, and a two unit switcher lashup.
- There is no consideration for getting involved with a club.
- A computer interface could be needed - not sure.
- I know that one LHS stocks NCE and MRC, and I believe Digitrax is at the other LHS. I am not so much concerned with this, as I am with getting into a company that will be around for awhile, offer all I need, and provide decent support.
- Money is not the major consideration. I will spend what it takes to give me the best I can fully use, but don't want to grossly overbuy.
- A tethered system would be best (I think) for me at first, but I would like the option to go wireless at a later date.
I guess the above helps narrow it down, but to be very honest, I am just not aware of what my future needs would be (i.e. turntable control, turnout control, signaling, whatever). So its hard to ask questions when you are not fully certain what is really meaningful.
Thanks!
Purchasing a DCC system is much like purchasing a computer -- no matter what you buy, a better one that you wish you had bought is coming out tomorrow
cacolePurchasing a DCC system is much like purchasing a computer -- no matter what you buy, a better one that you wish you had bought is coming out tomorrow
This forum is a pretty good sounding board. People are not afraid to speak their mind about subjects.
Nobody complains about the DCC system they have. Really, nobody. To me, that says that people are all pretty happy with their own systems. Since we have a pretty good cross-section here, that indicates that all the systems are pretty good, and the differences between them are more cosmetic than substantive.
Back a few years ago, the standard warning was "Remember, a low-end starter system is just that. If it is not upgradeable, then you are stuck with it until you replace it." Most of these are now eBay-only items, so they're less of a concern. A lot of people are very happy with the Digitrax Zephyr, the last remaining starter system from years past, because Digitrax provides a convenient upgrade path and allows you to integrate the Zephyr into your larger system very easily.
My Lenz system has been running just great for over 3 years now. Back when I bought it, I chose on the basis of a few parameters, most of which are now out-of-date. First, the Lenz was a 5-amp system from the start. Most others were 2 1/2 amps or less, at that time. Next, the Lenz supported more functions, nice for sound, which was just starting to be important. Again, other manufacturers have improved on this area as well. I think my Lenz has a lifetime warrantee, which is still the best in the business. But mostly, I liked the hand-held (tethered) throttle unit. It's got big buttons, while the others all have small buttons. It's personal preference, I know, but the throttle is your personal interface to the rest of the system, and you really want to be comfortable with it.
You've got one requirement that should be emphasized in your shopping. You plan to run 9-10 engines simultaneously, in big 4-unit consists. That's going to require a hefty system, and I wouldn't go for anything less than 5 amps. (I'm not sure, but I think 0.25 amps per engine is a good number to go with, with sound engines being more than that. If someone has the figures, please post them for everyone's benefit.) You will probably end up dividing you large layout into Power Districts with separate boosters, again to divide that load into more manageable chunks.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Mr, Beasley has some very good points. Almost no one gets on here and rants about the defects or disappointments of whatever it was he felt he should buy. Some of those decisions were based on advice offered here by well-meaning posters, while others made up their own minds based on information they took from a number of sources. The only complaints, if they could be so characterized, come from zappers who like to zing someone who reports some difficulty or lack of understanding and needs help. The replies run the likes of, "Well, what can you expect with ABC's system?" and other helpful diatribes.
We all get one if we're going to, and we learn how to use it. Digitrax, I must confess, as a user of the Super Empire Builder, is a bit of a grind when it comes to the learning curve. But, you spend half an hour here, half an hour there, read and reread, look at the DT400 throttle and press buttons. Eventually, you never have to return to the manual. Sure, the buttons on the DT400 could be larger, buy you'll pry it away from my cold dead hands. (Was that over the top? ) I love the double encoder knobs that lets me run two engines/consists at once, I love the "Don't mess with me!" programming capablility it has with all my various decoders...it spanks 'em, and I love its steadfast reliability.
But I have never held another throttle, nor witnessed its use. So, really, what do I know? I must be missing something about all the other systems out there that dutifully do their masters' bidding day after day.
I have heard really good things about Zimo. The Cadillac of DCC systems. I could get a Sunset Brass HO CPR Selkirk (with QSI sound) for the price, plus have enough left over to get a Division Point caboose to go with it. Yikes!
Joe Fugate ran a "clinic" for DCC here about two and a bit years ago. It might still turn up in a search. He did a fairly good comparison of the models then extant, which are largely what we have still.
-Crandell
Just a note, the DT400 has a recall stack of recently used locos as well. That's not just an NCE feature.
As for the throttles, I've played the the PH Pro as well at the LHS. To me, the DT400 fits to hand better, which is probably counterintuitive based on the way they look and are shaped.
And I just can't say I'd EVER recommend the Super Empire Builder as the first and only Digitrax system. The lack of a dedicated program track is the major reason. Lack of CV readback is another. The Zephyr actually has more features than the SEB, just not as much power. And I NEVER had a problem programming QSI and Loksound decoders on the program track with mine.
For a 'lone wolf' with a somewhat large layout, an ideal combo might be a Super Empire Builder plus a Zephyr, with the Zephyr set up as the command station. That gives you a DT400 throttle, dedicated programming track, full CV readback, and the extra power of the 5 amp booster. Or just getthe Super Chief to start with.
OK, fess up - how many of you with the Super Empire Builder have managed to at least once reprogram ALL your locos because you forgot to take them off the track, or had the switch that isolated your program area set the wrong way? Not gonna happen with a Zephyr or Super Chief.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Only once, Randy. And I used the handy "undo" button on the DT400 to get myself out of that jam.
Some super good information here, and I'm starting to fall off the fence on the side of going to DCC!
I'm still not fully up on the jargon and buzzwords, and have to ask... who makes the DT400 so often mentioned?
I've also reviewed the DCC system choices in a number of GMR yearbooks, these postings, and various layouts written about in the mags. It looks like - in no particular order - that Digitrax, NCE, and Lenz are the most popular for the folks "in the know". Now PLEASE don't take this as a slam against MRC and Bachmann and other manufacturers, for I certainly don't know one from the other and am just making an observation.
By the way, I have 5 BLI Paragon w/quantum sound locos (4 steam, 1 diesel) and they obviously already have decoders.
The DT400 is the throttle that comes with the Digitrax Super Empire Builder and Super Chief systems.
MM, the DT400 is currently the permier throttle from Digitrax, although one could argue that its radio counterpart is a step up. It looks like a longish rectangle from directly above it, so it is a plain Jane. But, I doubt anyone has ever remarked that it doesn't feel right. I fits naturally enough in my small hands.
The Zephyr would run your five engines just fine, unless you were making those engines tow 15-20 cars up a 3% grade, and they were all running concurrently. Even then, you'd probably just squeek under its amp rating maximum.
The new Dynamis from Bachmann does everything that its earlier counterpart, the EZ-Command didn't/doesn't. It also costs more than twice as much. I don't know about computer interface for such things as JMRI's programme already mentioned, but the Digitrax has according to what I have read...I don't have any such designs or interest at the present.
If you have not read these threads before you probably should now.
Picking the best DCC system
12 Years using DCC
DCC University
Edit: One other thought. Search the forums here, look around and ask others about MRC decoders. I have yet to hear much good about them anywhere except in MRC advertising...so, regardless of the DCC system you choose you will want to research which decoders are best for you too, I think.
Hi
I have MRC Prodigy Advanced and soon to upgrade to wireless. As far as I know their wireless is only major brand that can be used to operate and program. What I like about MRC Prodigy is ease of learning how to use the system. I sold my Digitrax due to it not being user friendly. My Prodigy system cost less and does more including 28 functions(not that I many decoders I have use so many) and it has easy CV programming and a cool thing called yard work for throttle allowing very small throttle increments and automatically going in reverse as throttle goes from +1 to 0 to -1. Take a look at Digtrax,NCE and MRC and make your own choice as you can see many of has have different opinions.
This set of postings is really a great learning experience for me - and I thank you all.
Question about decoders & installation.....
Decoders will be a major expense for me as I have about 50 locos (6- ABBA all units powered make up half the roster). Fortunately (I assume), my 5 BLI locos have decoders and Quantum sound, although I use them on my DC layout with "Quantum Engineer" to facilitate the sound.
I have looked up the locos for decoder availability and should not have a problem with finding one. But which of my locos will be "easy", and which will be difficult for a newbie to install a decoder?
The roster has several Lifelike P2K - E, PA, SW, and GP7/9 units, 24 Stewart FT/F units, two Kato diesels, 3 Atlas diesels, 4 Bachmann Spectrum steam locos, and 3 Bachmann Spectrum diesel locos. Assuming these are "DCC ready", which ones will be easy to work with, and more importantly which ones will be inherently difficult?
By the way, I assume that "DCC ready" means that a decoder can be easily plugged in or soldered in place. Is that a good assumption, or ???
Also, where would you recommend to by decoders in bulk, which I assume I could do for the Stewarts and P2K locos???
The P2K Geeps are probably the easiest - the Digitrax DH163L0 is literally plug and play. It is harder to take the shell off then to install that decoder, and I'm not exaggerating.
The Stewarts should be rather easy as well, but if you aquired them over tiem they might not all use the same decoder. Older ones have a kato drive, newer ones have Stewart's own which is essentially a knock off of the Kato but uses Beuhler motor instead of the Kato.
The P2K SW has a decoder made for it by NCE. It does require soldering on an LED to replace the headlight, but includes a resitor to retain the rear light which is nearly impossible to reach to change.
P2K E's can be tricky. Some of the earliest ones have some lousy motors which draw current more like an O scale loco than HO. Those should haev the motor repalced with the newer one. If it has the flashing Mars light - it will work on DCC with a plug-in decoder BUT pretty much ANY DCC decoder can do a better Mars light effect than the P2K circuit. If no mars light - very easy but the bulb will have to be changed out.
Kato and Atlas - NCE, Digitrax, and TCS all make drop-in decoders for these. The older Kato and Atlas units only have a signle light bulb in the middle (no directional lights) and you'll probably want to take this out, cut down the plastic light pipes, and install individual lights for the front and rear. Not very hard to do.
Spectrums - depends on how old they are. Older ones aren't very DCC ready, newer ones a simple plug in decoder works just fine.
I have some pictures on my web site of various decoder isntalls, including the GP7 and an SD7. I thought I had pictures of using the NCE decoder in a P2K SW7, unfortunately they aren;t on my web site. I did take pictures when I installed it though. A good place to look for install pictures is the TCS web site, and also at Litchfield Station. Lots of pictures of various decoders beign installed in different locos. It's REALLY not hard, as long as you can see where each wire inside the loco is coming from, connecting them to the right decoder wires is easy - the decoders all have color-coded leads. Some locos follow the same color code, other just have all black wires, but as long as you can see where it comes from, ie, the motor, or the right rail pickup, or whatever, you can easily figure out which decoder wire it connects to. Quick rundown: Red - right rail. Black - left rail. Orange - whichever side of the motor used to connect to the right rail. Gray - whichever side of the motor used to connect to the left rail. Blue - 'common' wire to all functions (lights). positive lead if using LEDs. White - front light. Yellow - rear light.