DCC or DC Powered Tortoise Switches Preferred?

[jbinkley60]

I finished wiring up my staging yard with 9 pushbutton switches feeding inputs on two DS64s.  Everything is working fine.

 

[jbinkley60]

I did find the original DS64 instructions that came with my first purchase (which I had been using for my installations) of DS64s.  It had OpSw11 and OpSw15 marked for future use and not to change them.   The online version 2 and the instructions which came with my later purchases have the updates.  I don't feel quite so dumb now .. 

   I know what you mean Jeff.  I read all about the routing on line, and even had my route numbers, turnout ID's, and cascades all figured out.  Then I get the first DS64 (as well as all the others I got later) and the instructions say "future use".  But I did the programming anyway and it WORKED!!!
   By the way, I now have half of the Torti installed for West Calwa, and the routing works to perfection.  Amazing to push one button and hear 4 machines whirring away at the same time. 

Phil

My longest normal route has 7 turnouts in it.  I have a default route which sets everything back to default that has 13 turnouts.  I am just wiring up my staging yard panel with pusbuttons.  It has 8 turnouts including a Walthers 3-way with two Tortoises.

 

[THE.RR]

I did find the original DS64 instructions that came with my first purchase (which I had been using for my installations) of DS64s.  It had OpSw11 and OpSw15 marked for future use and not to change them.   The online version 2 and the instructions which came with my later purchases have the updates.  I don't feel quite so dumb now .. 

   I know what you mean Jeff.  I read all about the routing on line, and even had my route numbers, turnout ID's, and cascades all figured out.  Then I get the first DS64 (as well as all the others I got later) and the instructions say "future use".  But I did the programming anyway and it WORKED!!!
   By the way, I now have half of the Torti installed for West Calwa, and the routing works to perfection.  Amazing to push one button and hear 4 machines whirring away at the same time. 

Phil

[jbinkley60]

The only enhancement I would ask Digitrax for is the ability to issue a route via the pushbutton input.  It would be nice to have a switch on each leg of a yard and then hit the panel pushbutton and have it execute a route to that yard track.  I can do ti with the DT400.  With the pushbuttons you have to throw each turnout.

 

     Sorry Jeff, but PUSHBUTTON ROUTING exactly why I bought the DS64 instead of the Wabbit.  I have a 40" wide, 13 track, 2 sided storage yard that I am currently instralling Torti and 64's on.  ONE pushbutton per track, and it will cascade all of the turnouts before the selected one based on the route programmed in.  Not only that, but I will be able to install a duplicate panel on the other side of the yard.
     Next will be the (future) wYe leaving the yard (only one leg installed right now) at the end of the peninsula.  Select a route from either side with the push of a button.  
     The Digitrax instructions with the DS64 are not that clear about the pushbutton routing, but the supplement and diagrams at their website are very clear. 

     By the way, I am using a Zephyr with a UT4R.  An 'old' MRC supplies the power for the Torti and the DS64 separate from the track power.

 Phil

You are quite right.   I went back and looked over the option switches again and OpSw11 and OpSW15 do exactly that.  Not sure how I missed it previously.  I thought it should be easy to do.  I also found their application note on programming this but I already have the cascaded routing working so I just need to wire up the inputs and change Options 11 and 15.

http://www.digitrax.com/DS64AppNote.htm

Thanks for having me RTFM again.

I changed OpSw11 and OpSw15 to closed on all of my DS64s and the inputs track to the routes, so they are working as advertised.  I did find the original DS64 instructions that came with my first purchase (which I had been using for my installations) of DS64s.  It had OpSw11 and OpSw15 marked for future use and not to change them.   The online version 2 and the instructions which came with my later purchases have the updates.  I don't feel quite so dumb now .. 

 

[jbinkley60]

The only enhancement I would ask Digitrax for is the ability to issue a route via the pushbutton input.  It would be nice to have a switch on each leg of a yard and then hit the panel pushbutton and have it execute a route to that yard track.  I can do ti with the DT400.  With the pushbuttons you have to throw each turnout.

 

     Sorry Jeff, but PUSHBUTTON ROUTING exactly why I bought the DS64 instead of the Wabbit.  I have a 40" wide, 13 track, 2 sided storage yard that I am currently instralling Torti and 64's on.  ONE pushbutton per track, and it will cascade all of the turnouts before the selected one based on the route programmed in.  Not only that, but I will be able to install a duplicate panel on the other side of the yard.
     Next will be the (future) wYe leaving the yard (only one leg installed right now) at the end of the peninsula.  Select a route from either side with the push of a button.  
     The Digitrax instructions with the DS64 are not that clear about the pushbutton routing, but the supplement and diagrams at their website are very clear. 

     By the way, I am using a Zephyr with a UT4R.  An 'old' MRC supplies the power for the Torti and the DS64 separate from the track power.

 Phil

You are quite right.   I went back and looked over the option switches again and OpSw11 and OpSW15 do exactly that.  Not sure how I missed it previously.  I thought it should be easy to do.  I also found their application note on programming this but I already have the cascaded routing working so I just need to wire up the inputs and change Options 11 and 15.

http://www.digitrax.com/DS64AppNote.htm

Thanks for having me RTFM again.

 

 

[THE.RR]

The only enhancement I would ask Digitrax for is the ability to issue a route via the pushbutton input.  It would be nice to have a switch on each leg of a yard and then hit the panel pushbutton and have it execute a route to that yard track.  I can do ti with the DT400.  With the pushbuttons you have to throw each turnout.

 

     Sorry Jeff, but PUSHBUTTON ROUTING exactly why I bought the DS64 instead of the Wabbit.  I have a 40" wide, 13 track, 2 sided storage yard that I am currently instralling Torti and 64's on.  ONE pushbutton per track, and it will cascade all of the turnouts before the selected one based on the route programmed in.  Not only that, but I will be able to install a duplicate panel on the other side of the yard.
     Next will be the (future) wYe leaving the yard (only one leg installed right now) at the end of the peninsula.  Select a route from either side with the push of a button.  
     The Digitrax instructions with the DS64 are not that clear about the pushbutton routing, but the supplement and diagrams at their website are very clear. 

     By the way, I am using a Zephyr with a UT4R.  An 'old' MRC supplies the power for the Torti and the DS64 separate from the track power.

 Phil

[jbinkley60]

I currently have 48 switches powered by Tortoises and controlled by 12 DS64s. The power for all of this is a 1.5 amp 12 volt wall wart feeding a power bus to the DS64s. The feed from the DS64 to the Tortoise is a 2 wire feed with a 2 lead 2 color LED in series with the Tortoise. This gives a position indicator on fascia control panels. A simple pushbutton on the fascia can control the switch through the DS64 as well as switch commands from my DT400R. Once I get a computer hooked up for dispatch I will also be able to control the switches from the computer through software such as JMRI or RR&Co. The pushbuttons are great for local switching and the DT400R works well when i'm just running a couple trains by myself. The computer setup will be handy for some automated running or proto session with a dispatcher in control.

The other advantage of using the DT400 control is being able to select local or cascaded routes within the DS64s.  I use this for my yard and staging areas.  I have some routes which will throw 8 or more Tortoises.  I also leavea  default route to set all Tortoises back to closed with one command.  The only enhancement I would ask Digitrax for is the ability to issue a route via the pushbutton input.  It would be nice to have a switch on each leg of a yard and then hit the panel pushbutton and have it execute a route to that yard track.  I can do it with the DT400.  With the pushbuttons you have to throw each turnout.

 

[kicksvette]

I currently have 48 switches powered by Tortoises and controlled by 12 DS64s. The power for all of this is a 1.5 amp 12 volt wall wart feeding a power bus to the DS64s. The feed from the DS64 to the Tortoise is a 2 wire feed with a 2 lead 2 color LED in series with the Tortoise. This gives a position indicator on fascia control panels. A simple pushbutton on the fascia can control the switch through the DS64 as well as switch commands from my DT400R. Once I get a computer hooked up for dispatch I will also be able to control the switches from the computer through software such as JMRI or RR&Co. The pushbuttons are great for local switching and the DT400R works well when i'm just running a couple trains by myself. The computer setup will be handy for some automated running or proto session with a dispatcher in control.

[[e-mail]]

Bob,

You could use stationary decoders to power each turnout, for example Digitrax DS54, DS64. You could then install separate SPDT switches with momentary contacts and position lights, at each panel with said SPDT switches connected to its respective stationary decoder terminals and the position feedback connected back in parallel to both sets of indicator lights (i.e., same turnout condition is represented at each panel).

Then you could either 'dial in' the stationary decoder # and throw the turnout from your DCC controller, or you could control locally by observing the position indicator light and then throwing the related momentary-contact SPDT switch in the direction that you want.

As mentioned in my previous post, my HSL layout uses both DCC-actuation through DS54 and DS64 stationary decoders via either my Digitrax throttles (not my preferred method as I've got 101 separate turnout addresses to scroll through) or via actuation of the stationary decoder by a local SPDT switch in turn actuated by an Armstrong lever mounted in the fascia front. However, I don't have any situations where I use two separate Armstrong levers to control the same turnout.

Hope this helps,
Eric Berman

[rangerbob]

Hope it's not too late to chime in. From the operational aspect instead of the electrical side of things - I wish to use DCC control at a wye that is accessed from two different aisles of the layout. One side is where mainline operators and the yardmaster use the wye as a turnaround and the other side is where a local job services industries and the wye is used to runaround and momentarily spot cars. We want each side to be able to use all three wye turnouts independently. The club layout currently uses momentary switch controlled screwdrive switch machines for all three turnouts. This required a wye panel on each side of the layout, wired concurrently so the turnout LED reported the proper alignment at each side. When the screwdrives are replaced with the Tortoises, we cannot simply replace the momentary off switches with a standard DPDT flip switch, on each side as one side is oriented one way and the other panel is opposite. We thought DCC control for each turnout on the wye allows multiple access to different locations that don't need to be at a specific panel. Haven't implemented yet - and we a not too electronic savy.

 Bob

[[e-mail]]

Hello All,

My Tortoise SM's are all DCC-powered, however there's a bit more to deciding on whether to use Tortoise SM's than just simply whether to use DCC or DC power. My Harriman Standard Lines layout operates under TT&TO SP Prototype Standard Code rules, with SP prototype ABS signaling (no CTC) and some dark territory. I use ProTrak software to handle car orders, train build lists, switchlists, etc. Eventually, the regular 'bridge traffic' trains running across the layout between the staging yards, will be computer-dispatched/controlled by RR&Co computer-aided dispatching and train control software. The RR&Co software will control said bridge traffic movements through my Digitrax DCC system.

I've restricted the use of Tortoise SM's to just the dispatcher-controlled turnouts (i.e., those turnouts that control access to staging tracks and passing sidings along the various mainlines). The Tortoise SM's are directly actuated by Digitrax DS54 and DS64 stationary decoders. The DS54 and DS64 stationary decoders can be actuated by either keying in the SM address on a Digitrax throttle (I have 101 Tortoise SM's and this can get to be a royal pain in the ***) or by throwing a miniature "Armstrong" lever (i.e., HumpYard Purveyance) mounted on the layout fascia which in turn actuates a SPDT mini switch that is connected to the respective stationary decoder terminal - this provides for local control.

The balance of my turnouts (another 296 turnouts) are controlled manually by using the same type of fascia-mounted miniature Armstrong levers which in turn actuate BluePoint manual SM's. These turnouts are non-dispatcher-controlled (i.e., customer sidings/spurs, all tracks within yard limits. and interchange tracks) and include the manual interlocking junctions. The BluePoints have electrical contacts which can be used to power switch frogs and/or signals or as in the case of the fully-interlocked manual junctions, provide positive feedback to the RR&Co software so that an automated train doesn't run through an interlocking set against it.

The only reason that I'm using Tortoise SM's on the dispatcher-controlled turnouts, is that I eventually want to 'automate' the regular bridge traffic trains that run across the layout between the staging yards by using the aforementioned RR&CO software. Automating those regular trains will relieve the Operators of handling the less-interesting/challenging trains, thus letting the Operators run the locals and extras that originate (for the most part) 'on' the layout versus in staging. My desire for automating is partly because most of my Ops sessions will involve just me or 1-2 others (max 5 Operators at any one time) and automation will allow me to 'run alone' if need be without sacrificing the fun and enjoyment of staging meets/passes against regular trains plus the fact that automating the bridge traffic will be just like adding more Operators (except RR&Co software doesn't complain, or show up late and leave early like human Operators sometimes do ). If it were not for the desire to automate, then I'd just use the BluePoint SM's over the entire layout and dispense with the Tortoise SM's and their respective stationary decoders.

Hope this helps (or at least does not hinder! ),

Eric Berman
aka SPPalmdale - still OS'ing trains, hooping up TO's and throwing levers between SP Mile Posts 413.8 and 414.6

[bmbob]

I use the NCE Switch-its to power my Switch Master and Tortoises thru the System.  I also use the JMRI Panel pro software to control the layout when I have a dispatcher present.   Through the switch-it however, I have the ability to set up push buttons on the fascia panel on those switches that can be seen, and have Macros set up so that I can control the switches from any of the cabs on the hidden switches in the staging area.

 

Bob 

[Calflash]

I'm using DCC control of the Tortoises for my hidden trackage so I can take advantage of macros to throw all turnouts to a given track with one command. I will use more conventional DC wiring with DPDTs for the upper visible part of the layout.

 Cal

[jbinkley60]

 

Just keep in mind from my 8/31 post that a UT4 cannot throw a switch powered by a DCC stationary controller.  The UT4 are designed for running locomotives.  You'll need DT400s or panel switches with UT4s.  I do think Digitrax missed the long term value of adding this functionality when they designed the UT4.  I understand the users has a lot of say in its  features and design.

 

[Capt. Grimek]

Yes, thanks ogre 247. My fellow operators are from a round robin sessions group I regularly get together
with so they'll have their own. I will have to get a UT radio (or plug in) throttle for the Mrs. though, for hopefully regular running with her. Time will tell.

I do appreciate your bringing up the point/reminder though, as it's easy for us beginners to not know what we'll need because we haven't had experience with DCC on our own layouts yet and it's twice as easy to forget what we just learned! ;-)

[ogre427]

and will be holding sessions with as many as four people (4 trains-5 trains), I went ahead and ordered the
Super Chief radio system I figured by the time I added a DT400 and radio and one more hand controller,
I'd end up in the same cost range anyway.

    Don't Forget that With a Super Chief you will only have one throttle, so if you want to have four operators you will still need to buy three more throttles. That brings your "cost range" up a minimum of $300 (3 UT4Rs), and even more if you want DT400Rs. Had you gone with the Zephyr you could have gotten a comand station with fixed throttle, a radio receiver, a couple radio throttles, and a power supply for about the same money as the Super Chief. Also the Zephyr has 2 "jump ports" so you can use standard D.C. power packs as DCC throttles (Admittedly they are not the most convienent, but they will get you going untill you can afford to buy more "real" throttles). Also don't forget that if at a later date your layout out grows the capabilities of the Zephyr you can add boosters for more power or even upgrade to Super Chief specs by buying the DCS 100 and a power supply (you did order a power supply with your Super Chief?)

   I realize that you have already ordered your equipment and my intent is not to criticize your choice. The Super Chief is a great system and I'm sure you will love it. I am posting this more for other folks who read this thread and are wrestling with the Zephyr/Super Chief question.

[Last Chance]

Thank you Paul3, it helps much.

All I know is that several steam and a bunch of desiels pull power when I flip that switch HISSSS! and CHUGG!

Might call my line the HissingChug Road or some such.

[Capt. Grimek]

Thank you Paul. Your answers are always so concise yet easy for beginners/laymen to understand.
You are an excellent teacher!

[Paul3]

Capt. Grimek,
What "Last Chance" is saying is that most if not all sound decoders have a "keep alive" capacitor wired hot to the rail.  This acts as a battery, and so allows the sounds to continue across dirty sections of track for very short periods of time.

The problem is that caps must charge every time they are powered, which means every time they are on powered track.  This is called "in rush" current.  The in rush current is short in duration, but high in amperage (compared to normal operation).  If you have many sound engines with caps in one block when you turn the power on, all the caps will try to charge at once...and this can lead to tripping the circuit breaker.  The same goes from when your system recovers from a short cicuit.  If you have problems with in rush current, you need either more power, fewer engines, or a circuit breaker that reduces in rush current.

I don't recommend running two trains at once on a layout, generally because in my experience it's hard to look at and control two trains at the same time.

Helpers, OTOH, are quite different.  I've used them many times at my club, and once in a while at home.  It's a lot of fun to run both the head end and the rear from two throttle knobs on a DT400R because it takes some skill to do so.  I would not recommend MU'ing the front and rear, BTW.  Especially for long trains, it's probably best to seperately control them.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[Capt. Grimek]

Sorry, Last Chance. I'm still not sure what you mean by "booted up" regarding sound locos. Is that with sound activated (making sounds) or just firin' them up and the "dormant" sound decoder is pulling power
from the power system?

By the way, seeing as I've got now idea how many and if I'll ever DCC control turnouts, signals, etc.
and will be holding sessions with as many as four people (4 trains-5 trains), I went ahead and ordered the
Super Chief radio system I figured by the time I added a DT400 and radio and one more hand controller,
I'd end up in the same cost range anyway. I hope it's not going to be insane overkill for an 8'X17' layout, but even if I can't run 120 locos, I figured the 5 amps, radio control of trains running in long tunnels and
the use of the DT radio throttle at round robin operating sessions would be worth it. Expensive mistake or
something I'll likely make good use of...what do you think? I'd have gone with the Empire Builder but wanted CV readback...

So, Tortoises on their way and I'll keep watching here to decide how DCC Turnout control fits my economic
picture by the time I'm ready to install them. Still not sure if the visual prompts of coming across obvious
DC toggles on a panel/facia as reminders yet have more wiring to solder and run is going to be my best course or if I can't live without auto turnout stop/throw of the Wabbits during a meet, etc. Seems like a nice accident preventer. Not sure it's gonna be worth $300 though! I might NEED those visual prompters. ("Oh, there's a switch I have to throw"!)

[Last Chance]

Anything that is electrically powered on your railroad and connected to your control system uses amps.

What I had in mind was the rush of amps on first power up times number of sound/DCC engines you have on the railroad as they boot up.

I think you will like the Tortoise very much. Keep in mind some cheap switches will break at the points eventually above the Tortoise throw rod. However, not much big deal as the repairs or replacement is not a big deal.

I was going to mention that the UT4 does not have switch throwing ability. However we used it on a layout that had tortoises tied to toggles at local panels.

[Capt. Grimek]

Thanks very much Jeff. I thought one could switch with just the Zephyr, from reading the online manual,
but wanted to be certain I was understanding that correctly. Gives me some intermediate options $-wise
then.

[jbinkley60]

Thank you everyone, as alway, learned a LOT. I'm ordering Tortoises (10) of them and will decide later whether to go DCC or DC. Looking forward to reading more discussion here if there is more to say.
I'm ordering from Cherry Creek. Has anyone had good luck with them regarding orders/service?
I need to check out digitrax's stationary decoders and read up on them.

Question: The sound locos only use up amperage if they are actively sounding right? Or do the "non triggered" sound decoders still soak up amperage for a Zephyr's 2.5 amp when the loco picks up the track power? Is the sound decoder always "on", drawing amperage from the power supply?

Paul, regarding your comment about operating two trains with both knobs on a DT400 not being recommended?
I intend using them for consisting/double heading/pushers, etc. Would you normally give both locos the same address and use one knob only or use a knob for each loco?

What do you normally do when running two trains yourself?

And finally, I DO need a DT400 to throw DCC turnouts, with radio with either a Zephyr or a Super Chief system, correct?
Thanks.

With the DT400 you can run multiple trains and still throw switches without losing control of the trains.  I do it all the time.  Consists make no difference.  Once you build the consist you are only going to use one knob that has the top address for the consist lead locomotive.  You don't have to have a DT400 but do realize that the UT4 throttles cannot throw a switch.  Digitrax left that function off.  You can throw a switch from the Zephyr with the switch button.  Some find it easier with the DT400.  I would tend to agree.

 

[locoworks]

Thank you everyone, as alway, learned a LOT. I'm ordering Tortoises (10) of them

it may be worth buying a box of 12 instead of only 10, they can be bought in 6's and 12's and they work out a bit cheaper.  shop around, you may find a 12 pack for the cost of, or only slightly more than 10 singles.

[Capt. Grimek]

Thank you everyone, as alway, learned a LOT. I'm ordering Tortoises (10) of them and will decide later whether to go DCC or DC. Looking forward to reading more discussion here if there is more to say.
I'm ordering from Cherry Creek. Has anyone had good luck with them regarding orders/service?
I need to check out digitrax's stationary decoders and read up on them.

Question: The sound locos only use up amperage if they are actively sounding right? Or do the "non triggered" sound decoders still soak up amperage for a Zephyr's 2.5 amp when the loco picks up the track power? Is the sound decoder always "on", drawing amperage from the power supply?

Paul, regarding your comment about operating two trains with both knobs on a DT400 not being recommended?
I intend using them for consisting/double heading/pushers, etc. Would you normally give both locos the same address and use one knob only or use a knob for each loco?

What do you normally do when running two trains yourself?

And finally, I DO need a DT400 to throw DCC turnouts, with radio with either a Zephyr or a Super Chief system, correct?
Thanks.

[jbinkley60]

I think it depends on your layout and how you operate it. I have an around the walls layout and I throw my turnouts as I come to them. (Most are manual, at least where I can reach them.) I also have a rule: Leave the turnout set for the mainline when finished using it. If you have a 4x8 layout on a table, or more centralized switching areas, maybe a central control panel or two would work better.

Connecting turnouts to the DCC bus also allows them to be operated by a computer. It was also supposed to be helpful in eliminating some wiring and control panels, but I am not sure about the wiring part. I have DCC, but all of my tortoise turnouts are DC controlled. (Even though I am a retired electronics tech., I don't always go in for the latest and greatest gizmos just because someone says it is.)

However, if you do decide to install DCC controlled turnouts, and you wire them to the track bus for power or control, when a train shorts the DCC bus out and it is across a turnout, you can't throw the turnout.

With the DS64s you have the option of DC power or track power.  I find that they actually reduces the amount of wiring, especially no more diode matricies etc.  If I want to reprogram a route, I just select the route address and change the switch sequences. 

 

 

[gandydancer19]

 

However, if you do decide to install DCC controlled turnouts, and you wire them to the track bus for power or control, when a train shorts the DCC bus out and it is across a turnout, you can't throw the turnout.

Well, not always correct.  If you install a Tony's type breaker between the command station and the track buss, and then tap off ahead of the breaker for the turnout power, you will still have turnout power while the breaker takes care of the actual track short.

OK, I will buy that.  But now the wiring becomes more complicated.

[maxman]

 

However, if you do decide to install DCC controlled turnouts, and you wire them to the track bus for power or control, when a train shorts the DCC bus out and it is across a turnout, you can't throw the turnout.

Well, not always correct.  If you install a Tony's type breaker between the command station and the track buss, and then tap off ahead of the breaker for the turnout power, you will still have turnout power while the breaker takes care of the actual track short.

[gandydancer19]

I think it depends on your layout and how you operate it. I have an around the walls layout and I throw my turnouts as I come to them. (Most are manual, at least where I can reach them.) I also have a rule: Leave the turnout set for the mainline when finished using it. If you have a 4x8 layout on a table, or more centralized switching areas, maybe a central control panel or two would work better.

Connecting turnouts to the DCC bus also allows them to be operated by a computer. It was also supposed to be helpful in eliminating some wiring and control panels, but I am not sure about the wiring part. I have DCC, but all of my tortoise turnouts are DC controlled. (Even though I am a retired electronics tech., I don't always go in for the latest and greatest gizmos just because someone says it is.)

However, if you do decide to install DCC controlled turnouts, and you wire them to the track bus for power or control, when a train shorts the DCC bus out and it is across a turnout, you can't throw the turnout.