After SEVERAL years of arm chair railroading, I have my basement and am ready to take the plunge.
Would like to go DCC (even though I know nothing about it) in N scale (Illinois Central).
I would like to know your expert opinions on the Bachman Dynamis and how it compares to Digtrax Zypher, NCE, and other starter sets.
Thanks
majortom
I have no personal experience with the Bachmann Dynamis, but do know that it uses an infrared link between the controller and receiver, which will be strictly line-of-sight communcations, similar to a remote control on a DVD player or TV set. If anything at all gets between you and the receiver, or you're not pointing it directly at the receiver, you will lose control of your train.
I would agree with David. Though the Dynamis looks sexy, the Digitrax Zephyr and NCE PowerCab are the best entry level systems in terms of price/performance. The PowerCab has a reputation for being more user-friendly, while the Zephyr is a bit more powerful. The Zephyr's limit for locomotives on your layout is ten while I believe the PowerCab's is six. The power output of the units may reduce that number a bit, but the Zephyr also offers greater power output than the PowerCab.
Best!
Randall_Roberts wrote: The Zephyr's limit for locomotives on your layout is ten while I believe the PowerCab's is six. The power output of the units may reduce that number a bit, but the Zephyr also offers greater power output than the PowerCab.
The Zephyr's limit for locomotives on your layout is ten while I believe the PowerCab's is six. The power output of the units may reduce that number a bit, but the Zephyr also offers greater power output than the PowerCab.
Randall, let me clarify this a little.
Speaking specifically about the Zephyr as this is what I use.
The Zephyr has a limit of 10 locomotives (more locos if in consists) running simultaneously. In addition to the system constraint of 10 locomotives running, there is a physical power constraint which may further limit the number that can be run simultaneously. Since most DCC equipped locos use very little current the 2.5 Amp capacity of the Z is capable of handling 10 powered locos. Throw in a couple of high current users and the number of locos will drop.
Important point!
These numbers, in particular the number 10, only apply to locomotives that are selected and under direct control. Many more locomotives can be sitting idle on the layout in yards etc. At this very moment there are 24 locomotives on my Zephyr run layout. Of the 24 a maximum of 10 can be run at once.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
To be fair, the Dynamis is a brand new system. We really do not know what is planned for this system so can not say for sure that it is a dead-end. Bachmann may well have plans for considerable expansion and development. What we do know is that the device is not made by Bachmann, but has been designed for them by one of the European DCC makers. It does appear to have some nice innovations in terms of user interface.
If the relationship between Bachmann and the designer remains strong and secure. If the product is subject to upgrades, add-ons and development. If Bachmann get their act together and provide good technical support for the system then this could be a reasonable choice. The problem is that if any of these things don't happen then the predictions of "dead-end product" become a sad reality.
The advantage of purchasing from a company that makes and supports its own systems is that you know there is commitment.
simon1966 wrote:These numbers, in particular the number 10, only apply to locomotives that are selected and under direct control. Many more locomotives can be sitting idle on the layout in yards etc. At this very moment there are 24 locomotives on my Zephyr run layout. Of the 24 a maximum of 10 can be run at once.
Simon, et. al.
This is because whatever your last speed setting was for each of your locos is continually sent out over the tracks in a command packet. The number of locos that a DCC command station can continually send to is usually called its "roster". The command station interleaves the last commands sent to each locomotive in its roster and continually re-broadcasts them. The roster of the Super Chief is 120 locos. I was actually trying to avoid getting that technical in this thread.
I've always been curious about something. If you have 10 locomotives running and start an 11th, does the least recently used locomotive (the one you've least recently adjusted the speed of) stop, or just keep running at it's current setting? From my understanding of the technology, I would guess the latter, meaning that technically you could run all 24 locos simultaneously if you had an additional booster. Personally I don't have the layout capacity to run more than four or so at a time, so I couldn't test it without having train wrecks.
Accurate information about the Dynamis is hard to find, even from Bachmann's own web site. Most places that Google finds are in the U.K., where it has evidently been on the market longer than in North America.
One site in the U.K. references the use of a Dynamis Pro Box to allow the use of additional controllers, but this is evidently not available in the U.S. because even Bachmann doesn't mention it in their advertisements.
Bachmann's advertisement on page 37 of the August 2008 issue of Model Railroader magazine claims that one can control up to 40 locomotives at any one time, or 40 consists of up to five locomotives each; however, it comes with only a 2.3 Amp power supply, which would not be able to handle that power load. No price or availability information is given for any add-on items, such as additional power transformers, the Pro Box, or controllers.
Until Bachmann USA provides better information about what you get and how much these add-on items are going to cost, I would be very cautious about being one of the first purchasers of a Dynamis.
Here's a link to one of the U.K. sites with information about the Dynamis and the Pro Box:
http://www.dynamisdcc.com/about.php?lang=en
A Google search for the Dynamis Pro Box turns up an additional site in the U.K. indicating that it is an upgrade option, with a price (in Pounds) given, but also says it is not yet available. To me, that would be yet another red flag. What if it never does become available?
http://www.railway-models.co.uk/1876_1_2663940.html
It's interesting to note that the Dynamis Pro Box uses the ECoSLink communications protocol, which was developed by Elektronic Solutions Ulm (ESU) of Germany, makers of the ECoS DCC system and LokSound decoders. This is perhaps a clue as to who actually makes the Bachmann Dynamis. The ECoS looks somewhat like a Dynamis.
Their statement that the Dynamis is a "modular" system of add-on devices also tends to indicate that by the time you acquire the necessary add-ons to have a fully capable system, you will have spent far more than you would for an NCE, Digitrax, CVP EasyDCC, or MRC Prodigy Advanced system, which are all available now and not promises of things to be announced in the future.
cacole;
Thanks for that link. I had actually wanted to mention the Dynamis specifically instead of simply alluding to it in the other thread, but I'd lost the link and could find nothing on B'mann's US site. I should have thought to look on their UK site... the only time I've seen it for sale online the price was in pounds not dollars. And if I did the quick mental conversion right it wasn't cheap.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
imported quote from general discussion thread by musserail
I actually purchased this system about two or three weeks ago - my post is the one linked to at the Bachmann DCC yahoo group. Some things I've read here I'll respond to. Two handed operation - Obviously you can't reach across the controller with a single hand to operate all the buttons, however, unless you are using the functions to turn lights or sounds on and off, you can do everything with your right hand. To change locos, you just press the joystick right or left and the screen scrolls thru the loco addresses saved in the machine (40 max) My 14 year old son can operate three locos simultaneously with no problem and one hand. Again, that scroll feature is so easy to use.Screen - Yes there are European locos on the screen - not a big deal to me as I don't think digitraxx or nce have logo logos on their screens (the versions that do have screens that is) and I can still tell the difference between steam, diesel, and electric. In my opinion the logos are not needed anyway. However, what the handheld does have is a big screen with great backlighting. It also has a feature that I don't believe other systems have - the ability to put in a text description of the locomotive - so when a loco comes up you have it's 4 digit address which I of course use the actual loco number and then you can input a description like for instance (New Haven Alco R-11) or (GE 70 Toner Steel Mill Locomotive) that sort of thing. If you were having guests over it would be much easier for them to pull up a loco from a description that looking for numbers. It's very easy to program edit, consist, turnout control from the handheld - everything makes sense and you really don't need to memorize any keystroke sequences,...etc. - the unit asks yes or no questions to confirm things - its about the same as programing your cell phone. Wireless (sort of) - It looks like a big thing on here that people are trashing this system for is the line of sight issue - There are some truths to some of this but not to the extent that has been described. Yes the system will shut all locos to emergency stop if you loose line of sight - BUT - only after a continuous loss for 25 seconds. Also, line of sight is not a good term as the system will receive signals over a pretty broad range - the handheld does not need to be pointed directly at the base. I have my base just under the layout fascia in a 3' aisle. The handheld will work anywhere in that aisle pointed any direction including away from the unit at the other side of the layout. It will also operate about 4 or 5 feet around the corners from this aisle, only loosing signal after that, well after I could still actually see the base station. To get complete coverage mounting the receiver on the ceiling should cover my entire layout and I would just be able to hold the remote at waist level like I normally do. Even with this "starter" unit the receiver detaches from the base and could be mounted remotely - I will probably wait for the pro system and just get a second receiver. My question is this though - if this is such an issue why recommend a Digitraxx basic system - doesn't this just use your old fashioned transformer type fixed control? To me it looks like I would have had to spend close to $600 to get any sort of true wireless system - I paid $169 for a mostly wireless - worst case I figure I could just duct tape my handheld in front of the base station (if what everyone was saying about line of sight issues was actually true) and have the same thing as the Zephyr, but with a better screen. Computer Interface - Right now this system doesnt have one - but the pro upgrade to be released soon, hopefully, will but even then I think it uses EcoSlink, so until decoder pro accepts that protocol I'm stuck.Expansion - The starter set as is only supports on handheld. The pro upgrade will have support for four, which is the most I will need, but I could also add plug ins and stationary controls to that. If they abandon this system before the pro upgrade is released Im basically screwed.The bottom line for me was the price - $169 from Peach Creek Shops. It's easy I think to get hung up on the ability to expand a system. I researched a lot of systems before taking a risk with this unproven system, but again, for $169 it was worth taking. When I was looking through the Digitraxx PDF manuals, I started to get a headache. I'm 41 so I remember the days when the wiring in the control panel looked like the phone system for a corporate office. I think the whole reason behind DCC is to simplify this, so for me, the simpler the better. I figure in two or three years there will be something even better out so I will just unscrew the two leads to the main bus from this system and screw in the other, that is if I even care about having all the bells and whistles the new system will offer. Ill try to keep everyone posted if I run into problems with this system, but so far I'm basically happy.
thread
http://cs.trains.com/forums/2/1441301/ShowPost.aspx#1441301
and here is the release info and retail for add ons
from bachmann site
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,6100.0.html
As DCC is usable in all scales, here are the Dynamis Items:Item No 36507 Dynamis Handset due SEPT MSRP 185Item No 36508 Dynamis Pro Box SEPT MSRP 450Item No 36509 Dynamis Wireless Receiver SEPT MSRP 45
river_eagle; Thanks for that informative post.
I had heard something about associating graphics with addresses, and the complaint about it only having UK prototypes. While it sounds like fun, I'm not sure how useful that would be if I wanted to run two trains being pulled by identical locos on my layout. The scrolling recall is an interesting feature. However, with more than five or six locos it might be easier to key in the address... and almost certainly would with two digit addressing.
My point, in the other thread, is that Digitrax needs to consider user-interface... something the Dynamis clearly addresses well. I have heard that, like its B'mann predecessor, it only supports two-digit addressing. Can anyone confirm that it does or does not support 4 digit addressing. I don't see that as a real problem, except as an upgrade path issue... which is actually a non-issue with B'mann DCC products.
Best;
Randall_Roberts wrote: I have heard that, like its B'mann predecessor, it only supports two-digit addressing. Can anyone confirm that it does or does not support 4 digit addressing. I don't see that as a real problem, except as an upgrade path issue... which is actually a non-issue with B'mann DCC products.
I have heard that, like its B'mann predecessor, it only supports two-digit addressing. Can anyone confirm that it does or does not support 4 digit addressing. I don't see that as a real problem, except as an upgrade path issue... which is actually a non-issue with B'mann DCC products.
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:You're right abouit not being cheap. The regular price of the Dynamis Pro upgrade box is $320. It's on sale for $291. The standard Dynamis system with transformer is $232.70, on sale for $194. The system is of course wired for 240 volts.
I've seen the dynamis as low as $168 here in the states.
Jeff;
Guilty as charged. Tuesday and Wednesday are busy days for me. I had on my list of things to do for tomorrow to read the pages cacole linked in detail.
At $168 the Dynamis is indeed coming down into the price range of the Zephyr and PowerCab. What I do like about the Dynamis, as I've said about B'mann's DCC turnouts in the other thread... these products raise the bar for the industry. We all stand to benefit in the long run from the innovation.
Randall_Roberts wrote:I've always been curious about something. If you have 10 locomotives running and start an 11th, does the least recently used locomotive (the one you've least recently adjusted the speed of) stop, or just keep running at it's current setting? From my understanding of the technology, I would guess the latter, meaning that technically you could run all 24 locos simultaneously if you had an additional booster. Personally I don't have the layout capacity to run more than four or so at a time, so I couldn't test it without having train wrecks.
Randall,
If you have ten locos running and an eleventh is selected, you get a "Full" message. By running, it's assumed all ten addresses are selected and set at a speed of 01 or higher or in a consist with another selected address. The ten running engines will continue at their last known speed and direction.This can be checked easily by simply selecting ten address and turning up the throttle on each. You don't actually need to have ten engines or even track. Unfortunately after the test, you will need to properly dispatch all ten address' to clear the slots. Or just reset OP Switch 36.
If any selected address is not in a consist and at speed 00, the oldest will be bumped from the slot and replaced with the newly selected address. Still only ten slots. The bumped address will need to be re-selected (if there's an available slot).
Martin Myers
To clear up a couple items, the Digitrax Zephyr is not limited to 10 running locomotives. It is, however, limited to 10 active addresses or "slots". That can be an important difference. For example, I have a 4 car P1K RDC train I use on my Zephyr-powered layout, and it only uses one slot. Each RDC is programmed to the same address, and I use CV29 to set the direction for each RDC. This can also be used on ABBA sets of F-units, or any other power that tends to be used as a set. It's called "Basic Consisting" in DCC-talk. So the real limit for the Zephyr is the 2.5 amps of power available, not the number of locos.
The other item is that, at least on Digitrax systems, if you have any functions turned on with any decoder, the system will keep that address active. Likewise if the engine's throttle is above zero or if it's in a consist. So it's kind of important that one un-MU's a lash-up at the end of the run, turns off all functions, and reduces throttle to zero before releasing or "dispatching" the loco from the throttle. Otherwise, you'll have an active slot and over time, a "FULL" or "Slot Max" message will appear. It's either that, or routinely clear out the loco roster with OPSW36.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Jack W.
majortom,
I too recently got into model railroading. I use the MRC Prodigy Express. I paid about $125 for it. It's really easy to use. The only drawback is that the screen isn't backlit.
Mike Kingsbury
Modelling the Chessie System on the living room carpet after the wife puts the kids to sleep.
Actually I am more afraid of the Bachmann association with the product. Anyway, it is not of interest to me because I have a sound investment in NCE, like it, would not consider replacing it, am happy with the service (what little I have needed).
I will say this, when the old Dynatrol command system was being replaced by DCC, the owner provided a conversion path from Dynatrol to NCE DCC with a dual signature decoder that would recognize an infrared signal from Dynatrol or a DCC signal from NCE. I put up the repeaters, converted diesels, but infrared turned out to be a dissapointment to me, so I made the full conversion to DCC. Believe it or not, I still have a few of those old dual signature decoders installed in a few older engines.
Bob
pastorbob wrote:Actually I am more afraid of the Bachmann association with the product.
Actually I am more afraid of the Bachmann association with the product.
I think most model railroaders are aware of the quality control issues Bachmann has with some of their products manufactured in China. But to be fair it has to be pointed out that their customer support is very good.
However, I still think of their HO and N scale products as entry-level toys. Their On30 and Large Scale trains I put in a different category, but only based on feedback from modelers in those scales. I have no first-hand experience with them.
Simon;
Thanks for that assessment. I know a number of people who agree with you. I had some problems with a Spectrum offering in N scale. They did replace the defective item promptly, but even after that, I still felt that the product wasn't quite worth the price.
simon1966 wrote:Randall, I used to agree with your sentiment about their HO scale models. But I think it is important to make a distinction between their cheaper basic line of models and their Spectrum line. I purchased one of their 3 truck Shays and have been really impressed with both the detail and the quality of the model. I have subsequently purchased other Spectrum range models and really have nothing bad to say. I think that they are excellent models.
Even their standard line has come a long ways in the last 20 years. I realize some of the "pros" still scoff at them, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to someone starting out. I wonder how many people that bash them have actually tried any of them in the last 10 years or so??
What we do know is that the device is not made by Bachmann, but has been designed for them by one of the European DCC makers.
The EZ Command Dynamis is made for sure by ESU Solutions in ULM/Germany
Santa Claus
Santa Claus wrote: What we do know is that the device is not made by Bachmann, but has been designed for them by one of the European DCC makers. The EZ Command Dynamis is made for sure by ESU Solutions in ULM/Germany Santa Claus
Yep. http://www.loksound.com/That ECoS Controller sure looks familiar. I wonder why Bachmann opted for IR wireless instead of radio??
Thanks for all the input, guys. Gives me a lot to consider.