I kinda flubbed around with this same question. As I was literally just starting out and it was my very first purchase I put alot of time and erergy into researching and making sure I bought the best that I could. And it wound up beign a total toss up. I went with the Powercab simply due fact that I like the hand held cab more than the stationary Zepher.
And a little bonus is that I can take it with me to the Club and use my Powercab as a throttle there!
I agree with most everyone that both are fantastic and you cannot go wrong with either one!
Welcome to the DCC age!
I realize I'm coming into this conversation several years too late, but it seems to me a couple of feaures have been glossed over. First, isn't the PowerCab limited to adding only ONE addtional walk around throttle, and isn't there a limit to the number or type of plug in panels that can be used? Also, is the PowerCab able to be converted to use a radio-wireless throttle as an additional throttle? As I write this, Digitrax has just released the updated Zephyr Extra, which now can handle up to 20 throttles instead of 10 and can control 28 functions, too.Digitrax having the jump port throttle feature also seems like a plus for anyone wanting to build their own DC tethered throttles "on the cheap", but the Zephyr being able to use the wireless infra-red throttles (at very little extra cost) or either the radio wireless (at significant extra cost for either NCE or Digitrax) could sway the decision, depending on your needs.
Also, the Zephyr can be used to test a DC loco, something that neither the NCE or MRC systems support. I realize that it's probably not a good idea to run a DC loco for any period of time using the address "00" feature, but it seems like it could be useful for occasional testing purposes
I do like the fact that the PowerCab is a very compact system that doesn't look like it needs a special shelf or table underneath the layout or control panel just to hold DCC components, something the Zephyr does need, even though it is smaller than most DC power Packs.
One other thing that concerns me is the potential for voltage drop to the rails when using a longer tethered cable with PowerCab due to the small gauge of the wire contained in the tether cable. Can you even use a coiled tether cord with the PowerCab if you can find one with enough conductors?
Regards,
Bill
As the system comes, it is limited to one other cab. However, it is expandable to accommodate two or maybe three more.
The available expansion items (smart booster) also increases the available amperage.
Yes, you can use a radio cab with the Power Cab system. You would need the radio cab as well as the radio base station. The base station plugs into where one of the cabs would get connected.
Maybe the control of up to 28 functions is a good thing, but most people I know only use bell, horn, and light, plus maybe a couple more. Since some of the other function keys do different things from one manufacturer to the next, unless the operator walks around with a "noise list" in his pocket he's not going to remember what does what anyway. But that's my opinion.
Most of the folks who have posted here seem to not recommend running a DC engine on DCC. And if I were interested in seeing how a DC engine ran, for test purposes or otherwise, I think I'd want a regular DC power supply. So, again in my opinion, the ability to run a DC engine on a DCC system is no more than a gimmick.
Finally, the ability to plug in a large number of cabs, whether that number is 4, 10, or 20, is another non-issue with me. When you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system (if that's what they are), how many locomotives can you run that you would need that many cabs? If you need that many operators, you would not have purchased one of the entry level systems to begin with.
While I agree with you maxman that running a DC loco on DCC is not the best, but it is far from a gimmick. At the club we had a member that ran all his engines on address Zero, in fact none of his locos had a decoder in them. He was a member for 10 years and never had the slightest problem with any of his units. He was even able to negotiate a reversing loop without a glitch, flipping the reverse direction on his throttle in the nick of time.
I personally don't run locos on address Zero however for the past 10 years I witnessed someone do it without any damage to his fleet or the DCC system.
Jack W.
maxman As the system comes, it is limited to one other cab. However, it is expandable to accommodate two or maybe three more. The available expansion items (smart booster) also increases the available amperage.
Well, when you add the SB3A, don't you lose the programming track and the "exclusive" PowerCab functionality (the ammeter comes to mind), as well as basically throw away the PCP and original power brick? Unless, of course, you go through the trouble of using it to set up a programming track somewhere. But what if you originally set up your programming track as part of the layout, since that's the way your PowerCab was configured? Now you have to re-do that programming track setup, to either move it off the layout, or make it so you can basically switch between two separate DCC systems depending on whether you want to run or program.
Keeping all that in mind, it sounds more like a replacement item than an expansion option.
maxman Yes, you can use a radio cab with the Power Cab system. You would need the radio cab as well as the radio base station. The base station plugs into where one of the cabs would get connected.
But what if you wanted to use another throttle or two, the USB adapter, or a mini-panel, or both? Those take throttle addresses, too. So with the original PowerCab, you get to pick ONE. And even with the SB3A you only have four total. So a PowerCab or even an SB3A user trying to expand just a little can hit the wall very quickly.
maxmanMaybe the control of up to 28 functions is a good thing, but most people I know only use bell, horn, and light, plus maybe a couple more. Since some of the other function keys do different things from one manufacturer to the next, unless the operator walks around with a "noise list" in his pocket he's not going to remember what does what anyway. But that's my opinion.
I do agree with you 100% on that one.
maxmanMost of the folks who have posted here seem to not recommend running a DC engine on DCC. And if I were interested in seeing how a DC engine ran, for test purposes or otherwise, I think I'd want a regular DC power supply. So, again in my opinion, the ability to run a DC engine on a DCC system is no more than a gimmick.
I don't know that I'd go so far as calling it a gimmick. But I agree, it has limited usefulness.
maxmanFinally, the ability to plug in a large number of cabs, whether that number is 4, 10, or 20, is another non-issue with me. When you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system (if that's what they are), how many locomotives can you run that you would need that many cabs? If you need that many operators, you would not have purchased one of the entry level systems to begin with.
Not necessarily true. I have heard of more than one room-size or larger layout that uses the (original 2.5 amp) Zephyr, with no additional boosters. Remember, under normal conditions a modern non-sound HO loco will only draw a quarter-amp or so. So depending on your operating scheme, five or six operators certainly isn't out of the question, and even more if you're an N-scaler.
I'm glad the NCE offerings fit your needs. But for someone with different needs, or someone looking to truly expand (instead of replace), the Zephyr may be a better alternative.
Edit: Fixed grammar.
Stevert I'm glad the NCE offerings fit your needs. But for someone with different needs, or someone looking to truly expand (instead of replace), the Zephyr may be a better alternative.
I tried to respond to railtwister's post. If you look carefully, I did not suggest that one system is better than the other. Nor can you tell what system I have. I expressed my opinions.
So far as non-sound HO locos go, yes, there are some people that haven't yet grasped the idea that the sound equipped loco has more play-value than the silent variety. But to have or not have sound is a personal preference. Most of the folks around here like sound, so I'll stand by my statement that 1.5 to 2.5 amps is not going to cut it. And then there is the matter of accessory decoders if you plan on using them.
And you mention the need for 5 or 6 operators. That number is a far cry from 10 to 20. And I have not seen any "room size" model railroad that will comfortably accommodate 5 to 6 average size operators, unless you mean a 30 by 80 room. And if you have that space, I don't believe that anyone will be buying any entry level system.
Again, just my opinions.
maxman,Just to prove that there's an exception for everything, here's my 25' x 50' HO layout:
And here's my DCC system that runs the whole thing:
These pics are a few years old, but the DCC hasn't changed at all. I still have a UR91, 3 DT400R's, a UT1, a DT300, and a half dozen UP5's (plus the DCS50). I have operated with 4 people at the same time and could have a couple more with no problem. I tend to run into the Slot=Max problem but that can be managed. I have yet to run out of power (mainly because I only have 3 sound engines). The entire layout is one block with a 14AWG pair under the mainline and yards w/ feeders every 9 feet.
I might consider selling my old Z and getting the new ZX... I'd have to think about it. Those 10 extra slots are interesting.
Paul A. Cutler III
maxman Stevert: I'm glad the NCE offerings fit your needs. But for someone with different needs, or someone looking to truly expand (instead of replace), the Zephyr may be a better alternative. I tried to respond to railtwister's post. If you look carefully, I did not suggest that one system is better than the other. Nor can you tell what system I have. I expressed my opinions.
Stevert: I'm glad the NCE offerings fit your needs. But for someone with different needs, or someone looking to truly expand (instead of replace), the Zephyr may be a better alternative.
It sure seemed that way, what with the comments in your post about how easy it is to "upgrade" the Powercab, and that anything more than what those "upgrades" give you must be a gimmick.
maxmanSo far as non-sound HO locos go, yes, there are some people that haven't yet grasped the idea that the sound equipped loco has more play-value than the silent variety. But to have or not have sound is a personal preference. Most of the folks around here like sound, so I'll stand by my statement that 1.5 to 2.5 amps is not going to cut it. And then there is the matter of accessory decoders if you plan on using them.
First, look again. There are lots of people who don't like sound and won't have it on their layout. Secondly, yes, I gave a "best possible" scenario. But let's say you can run half as many sound locos. That's still five, and for someone who runs trains with a single loco, that's still more than the SB3A's max even without considering the USB adapter or mini-panel.
And as for stationary decoders, DS54's (if you can still find them), DS64's, and Team Digital SRC*'s all connect to the LocoNet (without using cab addresses), as do many other accessories, and can use external power. In other words, no drain on the available CS amperage whatsoever.
maxman And you mention the need for 5 or 6 operators. That number is a far cry from 10 to 20. And I have not seen any "room size" model railroad that will comfortably accommodate 5 to 6 average size operators, unless you mean a 30 by 80 room. And if you have that space, I don't believe that anyone will be buying any entry level system. Again, just my opinions.
Yes, 5 or 6 is a far cry from 10 to 20. But it is more than the max of four minus the USB adapter and/or mini-panel that the NCE replacement, er, "upgrade" gives you. And if you read my entire sentence, I said "room-size or larger layout". With that in mind, I'll defer to Paul's post to rebut your opinion that a Zephyr isn't suitable for a decent-sized layout.
Amazing! The thread is over four years old (Aug '06)...and you guys go at like it was posted yesterday. Some of you need a hobby.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
maxman ... Finally, the ability to plug in a large number of cabs, whether that number is 4, 10, or 20, is another non-issue with me. When you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system (if that's what they are), how many locomotives can you run that you would need that many cabs?
...
Finally, the ability to plug in a large number of cabs, whether that number is 4, 10, or 20, is another non-issue with me. When you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system (if that's what they are), how many locomotives can you run that you would need that many cabs?
Of course it depends on your selection of locomotives, but probably more than most people think. I still see people recommend allowing .5 amps for non-sound HO locomotives and 1 amp for sound HO locomotives, which is rediculously high for most modern locomotives. Look at some of the reviews in Model Railroader - most modern non-sound HO locomotives draw less than .2 amps, some less than .1. Even many sound locomotives draw less than .25.
A couple of extreme examples:
Athearn HO scale FP7 diesel locomotive(with sound) - 0.1 amps slipping, you could run close to 30 of these with a 3 amp system.
Atlas HO scale GP39-2 diesel locomotive(without sound) - 0.08 amps slipping, you could theortically run 37 of these on a 3 amp system.
These calculations do not take into account surge currents from starting locomotives or from poorly desgned sound decoders that draw a lot when first powered, so the actuall numbers of what you could run would surely be less; however, I think it is pretty apparent that you could actually exceed 20 locomotives on a 3 amp system.
Maxman said:
"I tried to respond to railtwister's post. If you look carefully, I did not suggest that one system is better than the other. Nor can you tell what system I have. I expressed my opinions."
Stevert said:
"It sure seemed that way, what with the comments in your post about how easy it is to "upgrade" the Powercab"
I never made any statement that included the word easy. All I did was respond to railtwister's comment that the PowerCab was limited to one additional cab. What I said exactly was "As the system comes, it is limited to one other cab. However, it is expandable to accommodate two or maybe three more. The available expansion items (smart booster) also increases the available amperage." I don't believe that there is anything in that statement that could be construed as suggesting that one system was any better than another.
"and that anything more than what those "upgrades" give you must be a gimmick."
Railtwister mentioned the ability of one system to be able to run a DC loco for test purposes. My exact responses to that were " Most of the folks who have posted here seem to not recommend running a DC engine on DCC." ( I believe that to be a true statement ) and "if I were interested in seeing how a DC engine ran, for test purposes or otherwise, I think I'd want a regular DC power supply." I stated that I felt that this was a gimmick, but that was my opinion. I did not tie this statement in with any upgrades of anybodies system. You can disagree with my opinion, but I don't see how you can make a leap to suggest that I was denigrating any particular product.
"Yes, 5 or 6 is a far cry from 10 to 20. But it is more than the max of four minus the USB adapter and/or mini-panel that the NCE replacement, er, "upgrade" gives you. And if you read my entire sentence, I said "room-size or larger layout". With that in mind, I'll defer to Paul's post to rebut your opinion that a Zephyr isn't suitable for a decent-sized layout."
You may defer to Paul3's post all you want. However, what he said was that he had operated with 4 people and could have a couple more. This is not 10, nor is it 20. In any case what I said exactly was "Finally, the ability to plug in a large number of cabs, whether that number is 4, 10, or 20, is another non-issue with me. When you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system..." If you had read carefully, you would have noticed that I mentioned 4 cabs and 1.5 amp. I believe that these are properties of the NCE product, not the Digitrax product. And I also said non-issue with me. This doesn't mean that it might not be an issue with someone else. So I again don't understand how you can conclude that I was favoring one system over the other. Oh, and by the way, I never said anything about this being a gimmick.
Any potential purchaser of a control system should be looking very carefully at what that system does and what he needs it to do. In my opinion, there are other things that should take precedence over whether or not the system can power a DC engine or has 28 functions. These include how the cab feels in your hand, how easy it is to understand what all the buttons do, and how easy it is to program things. Anyone who would purchase a system that has an uncomfortable or non-understandable cab because it supports 28 functions is foolish. (And please note that since both systems in question will, I believe, support something close to 28 functions I am again being neutral.)
Now on a personal note, as I understand it, the purpose of these forums is to ask questions, get answers, and give your opinions. I tried to do that with railtwister's post. You can disagree with my opinion, but please don't misquote what I type.
Thanks
tstage Amazing! The thread is over four years old (Aug '06)...and you guys go at like it was posted yesterday. Some of you need a hobby. Tom
In my opinion "going at it" is a little strong. A question was asked and I responded. Then my comments were misconstrued. I tried to clarify what I actually said. I don't see a problem with this. But if it is, then please let me know.
CSX Robert maxman: ... Finally, the ability to plug in a large number of cabs, whether that number is 4, 10, or 20, is another non-issue with me. When you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system (if that's what they are), how many locomotives can you run that you would need that many cabs? Of course it depends on your selection of locomotives, but probably more than most people think. I still see people recommend allowing .5 amps for non-sound HO locomotives and 1 amp for sound HO locomotives, which is rediculously high for most modern locomotives.
maxman: ... Finally, the ability to plug in a large number of cabs, whether that number is 4, 10, or 20, is another non-issue with me. When you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system (if that's what they are), how many locomotives can you run that you would need that many cabs?
Of course it depends on your selection of locomotives, but probably more than most people think. I still see people recommend allowing .5 amps for non-sound HO locomotives and 1 amp for sound HO locomotives, which is rediculously high for most modern locomotives.
I'm sorry, I should have been a little more clear as to what I really meant. Although I did use amps in my statement, what I really should have asked was "when you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system how many trains can you run that you would need that many cabs?" And please note, once again, that I did use 1.5 amp as a lower limit. I only made my comments based upon what I see run here locally. And these trains are generally headed up by 2 or 3 unit consists (disease-els) and they are a mix of manufacturers, some of whom are not noted for supplying the best available motors, as well as old DC to DCC conversion engines. If the locos one has are the most efficient available as in your post, then certainly more of them can be run. But how many cabs are actually required to run them?
maxman ... I'm sorry, I should have been a little more clear as to what I really meant. Although I did use amps in my statement, what I really should have asked was "when you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system how many trains can you run that you would need that many cabs?" And please note, once again, that I did use 1.5 amp as a lower limit. ...
I'm sorry, I should have been a little more clear as to what I really meant. Although I did use amps in my statement, what I really should have asked was "when you have a 1.5 to 3 amp system how many trains can you run that you would need that many cabs?" And please note, once again, that I did use 1.5 amp as a lower limit.
Of course the number of cabs one needs in relation to the number of engines he runs is going to vary greatly. Many people do operate with one engine per train. Naturally if you have one engine per train and one train per operator, your going to need one cab per engine.
NCE POWERCAB, INDEED...you can follow and control your train, an inch from your eyes (good words for an advertising...want my copyright !!!)
Tom, I think this is a hobby in its own right!
They are both great systems. The Z was falling a bit behind and Digitrax had done a nice job of refreshing the feature list. The addition of the recall stack and the 29 functions matches capability that the PowerCab had, and the increased power and throttle capability may be attractive to some modellers.
So much depends on how a particular modeller wants to use their system.
For the solo operator that wants to have some walk around capability with a small layout then the PowerCab is hard to beat, especially if price is an issue as they would have to purchase an extra throttle to get walk around capability with the Z.
However, a Dad with 2 kids that wants the capability for all 3 to "play Daddy's trains" at once with a PC connection and JMRI software and the occasional guest operator is going to hit the wall with the PowerCab and find the Z better suits his needs. (this is my scenario BTW, and we often have occasion to run 5 or 5 cabs at once (The Z throttle, 2 x D402D, a UT4, 2 DC pack jump throttles and a JMRI throttle) when cousins or boys friends turn up)
It is not that I think the Z is "better" than the PowerCab, it happens to be what I have, and it happens to better match my particular situation.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
There's another large layout, guy who frequents the Digitrax group on Yahoo has an N scale layout almsot as big as Pauls but also DOUBLE DECK which he runs with a Zephyr and nothing but. It all depends on how many trains you actually run at one time. You could have a 6x10 HO layout that can handle 15 trains at the same time, the Zephyr wouldn;t handle that (but the new Zephyr Xtra probably could). You can fill a barn but if you only run one train by yourself - no need for a huge 8 amp DCC system there, either.
ANd Paul - where does it REALLY max out, 10 or 12? I don;t have enough layotu to actually RUN 12 locos at the same time and maintain control, the most I could do on my old layotu was 8 and even then I felt like Lucy in the pie shop trying to keep them from running in to one another, but I just wanted to see how much the Zephyr could actually handle. It SEEMS like I can enter new loco addresses 12 times, not 10, until it says FULL. Kind of makes sense, 10 plus the 2 for the jump throttles, but can you really control them? This has been kicked around ever since the Zephyr came otu and I've never seen a definitive answer. Once I finish the mainline on my new layout I may have enough room to at least select 12, but seeing as how you've already hit FULL errors ont he Zephyr - was it 10 or 12?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
tstage,True, the thread is 4 years old, but the new Zephyr Xtra brings something new to the discussion.
maxman,I did say I have operated with 4 people on my layout, and that I could accommodate a couple more. I could push it to 10 with my Z, but then each train would only have one address. I have 2 freight yards, a staging yard, a passenger terminal, and two local mainline freights. I could also run two mainline trains, have an engine hostler in the engine terminal, and run my local freight in my larger yard as a separate train for a total of 10 operators. The layout would be a little cramped, but my aisles are 36 inch so it wouldn't be too bad. That's a lot of action, even in 25'x50'. Heck, when we have 10 trains going at once at my club, it's kinda crowded...and our layout is around 60' x 50' (at the moment...see pic).
BTW, I totally agree that the form factor is the most important thing about any DCC system. If you don't like the way it feels in your hand, you'll never be happy with it.
Randy,I honestly don't know where it tops out...either 10 or 12. I have heard it's 12, but I've never tested it. About once a year, I need to clear the memory, but usually I'm pretty good about releasing addresses (throttle at zero, all functions off, not MU'd to anything nor anything MU'd to it).
I suppose if anyone wants to test it, just try running 3 MU sets of 4 locos. If you can, it's 12. If it says FULL after 2 sets plus 2, then it's 10.