My current Lenz system is about 20 years old. I've done very little with the layout the past year and a half, partly because I've lost a good deal of time acting as the executor for my late sister's estate, something I resisted mightily but was eventually coaxed into doing. I also don't do much MRing in the warm weather months which is golf season. The past few days I finally got down to the layout room to see if I could get things up and running and my Lenz system seems to be going haywire. Part of the problem is I have a dog that retreats to the basement during thunderstorms and apparently he went crazy and tore the place apart including some of the wiring of the Lenz components. I've started to rewire the system but am not having much luck. I don't know if the components got damaged when they got knocked to floor. I'm getting error message 43 which I'd never seen before. It says there is a software compatiblility issue and that my command station needs to be on version 3.6. I've never done a software update to the system and have no idea what version I am on. I did some online research as to how to download this version and learned I need to attach the command station to my computer through a USB port. Unfortunately, my LZV100 command station has no USB port. I'm beginning to wonder if it might be a better option to start over from scratch rather than troubleshooting the problems with my Lenz system. Due to my inheritance plus executor fee I will be receiving shortly, I have the funds to take that step.
I have a fairly large basement layout. It currently has two zones, plus two reversing loops. Without bothering to count, I have roughly 3 dozen locos spread out between the two zones, two staging loops, and a large roundhouse. I have a toggle switch which shuts down power to the roundhouse when it is not being accessed so as not to draw power unnecessarily. In addition to the tethered throttle, I have three wireless throttles although one is an older model which I rarely use.
I've done some research as well as reading through the lengthy thread comparing Digitrax to NCE. I'm considering the following system which Trainz is selling on ebay:
NCE 0007 PH10R 10 Amp Radio Starter Set with D408 Decoder | eBay
Before I buy, I'm going to contact the seller to get a bit more information. It looks like it only comes with one throttle so adding a second would bring the total investment to around $1000. I have auto-reversers from CVP and I need to know if they are compatible with the NCE system. If I need to replace those, that's another several hundred dollars.
One of the most important issues for me is the learning curve. I don't want to buy into a lot of complexity. I don't do a lot of programming of the CVs but what I do, I want to be simple. I've read part of the Digitrax vs. NCE thread and gotten some opinions but would like to hear more before I decide whether to salvage the Lenz system or buy into a new NCE or other system.
My recommendation is to buy an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system. You don't need 10 amps for that layout. A 10 amp system for an HO scale basement layout will bring you nothing but headaches.
I have an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system for my basement layout which measures 42' x 25', powered by two 5 amp booster districts subdivided into 7 power districts four of which are reversing sections. Quite frankly, the one booster was enough but I couldn't resist getting fancy.
When you say "two zones", what do you mean by zones? Booster districts? Power districts?
Whatever you decide, skirt that layout with something strong enough to keep that puppy from getting under the layout.
Rich
Alton Junction
By the way, Trainz is a very reliable eBay seller. I have made several purchases from that seller.
(sigh) ...It's always "Digitrax v. NCE". Never anyone else.
Have you given any thought to other systems, such as:
Roco z21 (you'd probably want "the black box" version)
or
YaMoRC (their hardware is currently in production, I believe, coming soon)
or even
a Digikeijs DR5000 (I realize Digikeijs is out of business, but the DR5000 remains a very capable hardware controller and is upgradeable to become "a YaMoRC").
Any of the above can run with handheld wired controllers, and they can also work via wifi (using a smartphone, tablet running control apps like the z21 app).
Hi John,
I have a little experience with Digitrax and a fair amount of experience with NCE. To put it mildly, I hated the Digitrax throttles! IMHO, NCE is much easier to use and understand.
Having said that, the new(ish) WiFi apps for cell phones may make my point moot. Several members of my old train club used their cell phones as throttles and were very happy with how they worked.
Do you have access to a club layout or a friend's layout to try the systems out? Maybe a trip to a train store would help you make the choice, assuming they have the expertise to explain the differences.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I concur on the exasperation on the same old same old.
But we've already had that discussion.
From one John to another, I would highly highly recommend you consider the TCS CS-105
https://yankeedabbler.com/products/tcs-cs-105-dcc-command-station-15v-all-scale
And get a UWT-100 (or UWT-50 if you prefer the formfactor)
https://yankeedabbler.com/products/tcs-train-control-systems-uwt-100-universal-wifi-throttle-scale-any-part-745-uwt-100
There are a couple good reasons to recommend this product. The first of which is that it is powerful, it is based on modern Hardware and it is wireless first.
BUT, for you specifically, there is another consideration, The CS-105 has a legacy interface that can be put in either NCE mode, OR, Expressnet mode. And that means that your existing throttles and the expressnet wireless will plug directly into the system and function.
This will be a significant savings. I recommend buying the UWT throttle, because it is a wonderful piece of kit, but you could, in theory simply buy no throttles and use your existing units with the CS-105.
OldEngineman(sigh) ...It's always "Digitrax v. NCE". Never anyone else.
I know what you mean. I use CVP. I started in DCC with Digitrax, but was not happy with their radio control system. CVP works much better in that regard. It also can interface with a computer. A downside is it's only available direct from the manufacturer, although once in a while something will turn up on Ebay. As best I can see their prices aren't out of line with other brands.
https://www.cvpusa.com/easydcc_system.php
OldEngineman Have you given any thought to other systems, such as: Roco z21 (you'd probably want "the black box" version) or YaMoRC (their hardware is currently in production, I believe, coming soon) or even a Digikeijs DR5000 (I realize Digikeijs is out of business, but the DR5000 remains a very capable hardware controller and is upgradeable to become "a YaMoRC")
I am not convinced that considering products that are "coming soon", "out of production", "black box versions", or are otherwise out of the mainstream are viable options.
Well, Roco Z21 is super popular and not out of production.It's fairly easy to get. It also supports expressnet.
But I'd still put the CS-105 above it. And it is very easy to get in the US.
On CVP, SOME (but not all) of their products ALSO use Expressnet. So that's cool.
The other big player is ESU. In particular the ECOS system. It's very very different from typical DCC systems, but might be worth a look to see if that UI interests you.
I am going to second my own earlier suggestion to purchase an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system based upon my own 20 years of experience with this system. It has performed flawlessly for the entire period of time that I have owned it.
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'll look into the other manufacturers. I'm still leaning toward the NCE system although I will look into richhotrain's suggestion to go with the 5 amp system rather than the 10. I don't recall seeing a 5 amp system offered on ebay but I quit searching after I found the one that I posted the link for.
One thing that concerned me about NCE is that when I went directly to their website, all of their systems were listed as out-of-stock except for one.
DCC Systems (ncedcc.com)
Could this be due to the time of year? Does anyone have any idea why so many of their products are currently out of stock?
I guess in the OP I used the term zone rather than district. I have two districts in addition to the loop staging yards which are reversing sections. I also have a kill switch for the roundhouse so as not to draw power when the roundhouse is not being accessed. It also saves me the trouble of turning off the sound on the locos individually.
I would look at what's available at the major resellers.
NCE has had a major issue with supply chain. The design is so old that a lot of the parts were simply end of lifed during covid. No chip supplier wanted to build them at any price.
Hence the R version. NCE was FORCED to redesign the product with modern parts. That finally happened and was released this year, but I'm sure they were very conservative on the numbers produced.Digitrax, TCS, Roco, ESU have plenty of stock
John-NYBW Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'll look into the other manufacturers. I'm still leaning toward the NCE system although I will look into richhotrain's suggestion to go with the 5 amp system rather than the 10. I don't recall seeing a 5 amp system offered on ebay but I quit searching after I found the one that I posted the link for. One thing that concerned me about NCE is that when I went directly to their website, all of their systems were listed as out-of-stock except for one. DCC Systems (ncedcc.com) Could this be due to the time of year? Does anyone have any idea why so many of their products are currently out of stock?
The updated version costs around $800. You would never want to buy direct from NCE because it charges MSRP (e.g. $1,000 on the P-H Pro 5 amp wireless).
Actually, Trainz, the eBay seller that you mentioned in your initial post, has a brand new original system, the one that I have, for $550.
John-NYBW I guess in the OP I used the term zone rather than district. I have two districts in addition to the loop staging yards which are reversing sections. I also have a kill switch for the roundhouse so as not to draw power when the roundhouse is not being accessed. It also saves me the trouble of turning off the sound on the locos individually.
Hello All,
Sorry for the loss of your sister and your DCC system.
I switched from the dead-end Bachmann Dynamis DCC system to the NCE PH5 Wireless 5 amp system in 2021 and have had no regrets.
You can find this "in stock" and less than M.S.R.P. at Mountain Subdivision Hobbies. Create an account for the best pricing.
The only caveat would be the circuit breaker protection and reversing wye.
Take a look at this thread...
EB1 is not resetting
I prefer the ergonomics of the NCE throttle (cab) and how it makes and breaks consists.
Yes, a single 10 amp booster would serve you well but I would recommend taking this time to create more "power districts" with individual circuit breakers as you upgrade your DCC system.
On my 4'x8' pike I have five (5) power districts, utilizing four (4) EB1s and an AR10 auto reverser/circuit breaker.
I also run JMRI DecoderPro on my Mac desktop computer linked to the NCE system with the NCE USB Interface for Power Cab (a PC can be connected via an NCE USB to Serial cable).
This gives me the ability to run the WiThrottle app (full version) on my iPad and control two (2) other locomotives or consists.
I also have a stand-alone programming track using JMRI DecoderPro and a Digitrax PR3 (superceeded by the PR4).
As has been posted, there are many more DCC systems available other than NCE or Digitrax.
Some offer features such as locomotive recognition (when equipped with compatible decoders) and other "advanced" functions.
I presume the DCC decoders installed in your motive fleet are Lenz.
After upgrading your DCC system- -no matter which you choose- -you should consider upgrading the decoders.
Even though my DCC system is NCE I have had great results using Digitrax decoders; both non-sound and sound.
Check out these posts...
Sound Upgrade H10-44 in HO
One or two decoders?
For me, the NCE 5 amp wireless system fit my needs.
Keep the questions coming and as always...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I have an old Lenz Set 100 DCC system, with an additional Set 90 throttle, which I hardly use. Everything still worked the last time I used it. I've got two CVP throttles, the variant that works with Lenz, to give me wireless throttle capability. My layout uses 2 old solid state auto-reversers and 4 PSX breaker boards, all of which work just fine. I use Digitrax and Soundtraxx decoders, mostly, and they work well for me, too.
I probably need to replace my original LH 100 throttle because the buttons are starting to flake out with age. That throttle is the only one I can use to program decoders. The others range from awkward to impossible. But, the basic system, with its original 5 Amp power, still serves well.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley I have an old Lenz Set 100 DCC system, with an additional Set 90 throttle, which I hardly use. Everything still worked the last time I used it. I've got two CVP throttles, the variant that works with Lenz, to give me wireless throttle capability. My layout uses 2 old solid state auto-reversers and 4 PSX breaker boards, all of which work just fine. I use Digitrax and Soundtraxx decoders, mostly, and they work well for me, too. I probably need to replace my original LH 100 throttle because the buttons are starting to flake out with age. That throttle is the only one I can use to program decoders. The others range from awkward to impossible. But, the basic system, with its original 5 Amp power, still serves well.
That pretty much is the same set up I have other than the type of autoreversers. I agree with you about the difficulty of programming with the LH90. My LH100 is what I used the last time I had to program a loco which has been a while. The LH100 has been dropped too many times and I'm wondering if that is part of the problem. I only use it as a throttle for yard switching. I use the wireless throttles for mainline running. This weekend, I'm going to make one last attempt to overhaul the Lenz system to see if I can get it working again. I'm going to redo all the wire hook-ups to see if that is part or all of the problem. If that doesn't work, I'll go ebay shopping for a new system.
If you unplug the LH100 completely, can you run the system from a different throttle? Does it behave any differently? That would at least tell you if the problem is in that throttle.
At one point my LH100 dropped and I discovered the cable had lost one connection. I opened it up and fixed it, and everything worked fine again.
My layout has a long control bus running around the benchwork, with multiple jacks for moving throttles around. I would also suggest unplugging any such control bus and plugging the throttle directly into the command station. If the wiring of the DCC system has been disturbed, that will eliminate most of the potential problems.
Good luck.
MisterBeasley If you unplug the LH100 completely, can you run the system from a different throttle? Does it behave any differently? That would at least tell you if the problem is in that throttle. At one point my LH100 dropped and I discovered the cable had lost one connection. I opened it up and fixed it, and everything worked fine again. My layout has a long control bus running around the benchwork, with multiple jacks for moving throttles around. I would also suggest unplugging any such control bus and plugging the throttle directly into the command station. If the wiring of the DCC system has been disturbed, that will eliminate most of the potential problems. Good luck.
I don't have any jacks around the layout. I am completely wireless except for the throttle tehthered to the command unit. I get a different error code on the LH100 than when I plug in the LH90. The LH100 gives me ER97 which I have seen often but the LH90 gives me an ER43 which I have never seen before and it tells me I have a compatibility issue with the command station which makes no sense since I have used both throttles with the command station in the past. It's head scratching time which is why I'm going to disconnect everything this weekend and rewire all the components using the various manuals as a guide to make sure everything is wired as it was originally. If that doesn't work, I'm out of ideas and will probably opt for a new system.
I found a 5 amp NCE system on ebay for about a hundred dollars less than the 10 amp system from Trainz although that savings will be partially offset by a higher shipping cost. The 5 amp system will probably be sufficient for my current needs but I'm thinking about the future. I started in DCC with a basic Atlas system which is one reason I upgraded to a Lenz system since they were the manufacturers for the Atlas system. At the time, I'm not sure sound was even available so who knows if I'll need more power in the future. I remember back when I bought my first MacIntosh computer which came with 512K of memory. That was equal to what the IBM 370 mainframe computer I worked on when I started my career in data processing. I remember buying a 20K hard drive which was the size of a toaster and my coworkers were ribbing me about why I thought I needed so much storage space. Little did we know...
BTW, that MacIntosh computer cost $2800 in 1984 dollars. My inflation calculator tells me it would be over 3 times that cost in today's dollars. Today you can buy a decent laptop with exponentially more power for around $500.
John, Trainz shipping cost for that 5 amp wireless system is less than $20. That is not all that much, given today's economy. Not a bad deal. The shipping charge on the 10 amp system was over $31.
John-NYBW MisterBeasley If you unplug the LH100 completely, can you run the system from a different throttle? Does it behave any differently? That would at least tell you if the problem is in that throttle. At one point my LH100 dropped and I discovered the cable had lost one connection. I opened it up and fixed it, and everything worked fine again. My layout has a long control bus running around the benchwork, with multiple jacks for moving throttles around. I would also suggest unplugging any such control bus and plugging the throttle directly into the command station. If the wiring of the DCC system has been disturbed, that will eliminate most of the potential problems. Good luck. I don't have any jacks around the layout. I am completely wireless except for the throttle tehthered to the command unit. I get a different error code on the LH100 than when I plug in the LH90. The LH100 gives me ER97 which I have seen often but the LH90 gives me an ER43 which I have never seen before and it tells me I have a compatibility issue with the command station which makes no sense since I have used both throttles with the command station in the past. It's head scratching time which is why I'm going to disconnect everything this weekend and rewire all the components using the various manuals as a guide to make sure everything is wired as it was originally. If that doesn't work, I'm out of ideas and will probably opt for a new system. I found a 5 amp NCE system on ebay for about a hundred dollars less than the 10 amp system from Trainz although that savings will be partially offset by a higher shipping cost. The 5 amp system will probably be sufficient for my current needs but I'm thinking about the future. I started in DCC with a basic Atlas system which is one reason I upgraded to a Lenz system since they were the manufacturers for the Atlas system. At the time, I'm not sure sound was even available so who knows if I'll need more power in the future. I remember back when I bought my first MacIntosh computer which came with 512K of memory. That was equal to what the IBM 370 mainframe computer I worked on when I started my career in data processing. I remember buying a 20K hard drive which was the size of a toaster and my coworkers were ribbing me about why I thought I needed so much storage space. Little did we know... BTW, that MacIntosh computer cost $2800 in 1984 dollars. My inflation calculator tells me it would be over 3 times that cost in today's dollars. Today you can buy a decent laptop with exponentially more power for around $500.
Suppose you remove all the throttles and power up the system. Does an error message show up anywhere, or is it a message that only shows up on the throttle display?
If you have no Lenz throttles plugged in, can you run anything from the wireless throttles? Alternatively, can you just disconnect the wireless box and what effect does that have? I would also try disconnecting the main connection to the track, and any connection to the programming track.
My approach here is to simplify the system to hopefully get it back to where it at least doesn't throw error messages, and then put stuff back until it fails. You have no control bus, so that greatly simplifies your job.
I like my Lenz system. I like having an active stack of 32 locomotives so all of mine are instantly available. Mostly, I like the large buttons on the throttles. Some DCC throttles seem to think people like tiny throttles with lots of little cell phone buttons. That's not for me. I'm an old guy with big fingers, and I often run trains in very reduced light, so a throttle the size of a modern candy bar is kind of impractical.