what do I need to convert my old locos , all have DCC-friendly motors (Kato or others)?
So many to look at wow, sound lighting, my locos have only headlights.
GP9,GP38-2,GP35
NEC, Digitrax, ECT.
drop-boards light boards 9 pin decoders what the heck.
soldering no problem
if you guys can give me any ideas please do I'm all for suggestions
Thanks bigjohn
Hi John,
Congratulations on taking the plunge into DCC. There will be a bit of a learning curve but once you understand the basics you will be fine. If you encounter a problem, don't hesitate to ask for help.
Before you install any decoders, you need to make sure that each of your locomotives runs smoothly on DC. Installing a decoder will not cure a poorly running locomotive's problems. I suggest a thorough cleaning and relubrication be done first.
I am a Loksound devotee but TCS has excellent products too. One thing that TCS offers are a whole bunch of installation instructions for a variety of locomotives. You might want to consider starting there to give you an idea of what needs to be done.
https://drupal.tcsdcc.com/installations
Good luck with your project. Please keep us informed, and please don't hesitate to ask for help!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
First off, what are you trying to achieve, I went with DCC for the sound and powered frogs, both of those can be done in DC but it is way harder and not as effective. So if you have made up your mind, your first choice is control system. If you want simple go with Digitrax (not that you can't do other stuff with it but it also has things available that remind you alot of DC rigs like UT4's, just you can do it at a gradual pace easier in my opinion).
John Graydrop-boards light boards 9 pin decoders what the heck.
Starting sometime around the 1980s, model engines started coming with a green "light board" as part of the wiring. So rather than have wires going from the wheel pickups to the motor, the wires go from the pickups to the lightboard, and then from the lightboard to the engine (or headlights etc.)
Starting around 2000, lightboards were made "DCC Ready" by having a DCC receptacle as part of them. Generally these have a receptacle with 8 small holes. Some decoders come with 8 'pins' attached to them, and so can be plugged right into the receptacle. Other decoders use 9-pins, so you would use a 'harness' that allows you to plug it into an 8-hole receptacle.
There are also lightboard replacement decoders that are the size and shape of the lightboard; you would remove the lightboard and "hardwire" (solder the connections) from the engine to the decoder. A good thing about that is it takes up no more room than the lightboard, so you don't have to worry about it not fitting (although if it's a sound decoder, you'd need to find room for a speaker and enclosure). A bad part is you have to be careful when soldering, heating the decoder up too much can damage it.
I second Dave's suggestion to look at the TCS site. Check the TCS how-to's for each of your engines and see which appears to be the easiest. I would start with an engine that is perhaps not your "pride and joy", and do a non-sound decoder install. Sound is not that hard to install, but it involves installing a speaker, which is not obvious in some engines, and involves a more costly decoder. But if sound is your main motive here, then I would see which is the easiest to install based on the TCS information. Your GP-9 might be a good candidate if it's the high-hood model. There is more room in there for a speaker than the others.
Simon
Randy our late electrical guru used to say that replacing the circuit board gave you a better running engine than using the plug. With the evolution in DCC maybe that's no longer true for recent models.
You need to decide if you want sound or not. ESU sound decoder can be purchased "blank" or the dealer will loud the sound package for the engine you specify. That's not obvious to a newbie when you order online.
Most of us advocate for replacing bulbs with LED's. Some decoders come with the resistors you need preinstalled, some don't.
I'm an ESU guy but they have gotten so complicated. I don't know that I would start with them today.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Big John.
Welcome to the wonderful world of DCC.
Who is the manufacturer of the locomotive, do you want sound and power, functioning ditch lights fore and aft, step, cab, rotary beacons, Mars or gyro lights, and even smoke?
Simple plug in motor and lights can be done on some models. Others require a board replacement. Good soldering and wire management is a plus for complicated conversions. In my opinion and strongly recommend LEDs for the lights.
I'm partial to ESU Loksound for sound. If just motor and lights then TCS is my go to decoder. With Loksound, you can get a Loksound programmer with their free software and Windows computer load new sound files and program ESU decoders easily. This comes in real handy if you want a different sound than what came with the decoder.
As for a control system. I have an NCE Power Cab at home. My former club used Lenz with the addition of CVP wireless throttles. Just make sure whatever system you choose, that it is upgradeable as your empire grows. Many years ago I had a bad experience with Digitrax warranty and never looked back to them for anything. My understanding is that they have gotten better with their support. The user interface is probably the most important item of a control system. Ease of use, fit in the hand, able to stop a train without looking at the throttle and so forth. I absolutely love my Lenz LH90 engineers throttle for controlling a train but the ease of programming and lack of function buttons does not make it ideal. Just some food for thought.
Pete.
Hello All,
Take a deep breath, and enjoy the read...
hon30critter...make sure that each of your locomotives runs smoothly on DC. Installing a decoder will not cure a poorly running locomotive's problems.
Putting a DCC decoder in a poor-performing DC loco is like...
"Fitting wheels to a tomato- -it's useless and an utter waste of time."
John Graysoldering no problem
Some conversions require little to no soldering, while others require extensive soldering.
Yes, you can do it with a pencil-type iron (25w to 35w) with practice, patients, and skill.
A good soldering station makes things much easier. I set mine to 650ºƒ.
Unless you are using an 8-pin National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) compliant decoder or one with an 8-pin to 9-pin harness (Digitrax) you will also need 32 AWG wire and an assortment of heat shrink tubing to insulate the solder joints.
A hobby heat gun for embossing is an inexpensive option for setting the heat shrink versus a more expensive "heat-gun."
Some use a product known as "Liquid Electrical Tape" but I haven't had much luck with this product with one exception- -isolating Athern Blue Box Locomotives motors from the frame (discussed below).
For troubleshooting purposes, I would use the NMRA Recommended Practice of wire color coding:
These colors are standard on decoders produced for the North American market.
Decoders with more functions use other colors- -Green, Brown, and striped or banded wire.
If you plan on converting to LEDs you will need the bulbs and resistors; to reduce the voltage of the Lighting Function outputs of the decoder so you don't fry the LEDs.
Some decoders have LED resistors built-in so LEDs can be wired directly- -no resistors needed.
Other decoders have Energy Storage Units (ESUs) A.K.A. "Keep-Alive" built-in- -no additional space needed for the capacitor pack.
For applications where space is a premium, the additional cost of these decoders is worth it.
Some DC locomotive manufacturers use the frame to conduct power to one or both sides of the motor.
Vertically split frame locomotives; primarily steam but also used in diesels, have insulating washers/grommets between the two (2) "hot" halves of the frame to avoid shorting out the DC/DCC system.
The frame can be used as an electrical path to the decoder but care must be taken to isolate the motor from the "hot" frame.
"DCC Friendly" locomotives have the motor isolated.
Older Athern "Blue Box" locomotives need to have the motors isolated. There are several ways to do this, but I will not go into detail here.
If you are adding sound to a non-sound locomotive speaker placement and size are a consideration.
With the three (3) diesel locomotives you listed:
John GrayGP9, GP38-2, GP35
Unless the frames are fitted for sound, they might need machining to install the speaker(s).
As mentioned a good soldering station helps, along with a wire stripper for small gauge (32 AWG) wire.
When soldering decoders plumbing or "universal" solder and flux paste can cause degradation to these sensitive electrical components.
I and others use Kester® Sn63Pb37 3.3% 44 (0.015mm) solder (#24-6337-0007) along with SRA Flux #135 Rosin Paste Flux (sra.solder.com).
An inexpensive multimeter with a continuity (beeper) function is also helpful.
I have had success with Digitrax; both sound & non-sound, along with Train Control System (TCS) non-sound decoders.
The TCS decoder line offers both built-in LED and Energy Storage Units- -ESU- -("Keep-Alive") along with advanced sound capabilities.
My LEDs are sourced from More LEDs. (They also include the appropriate resistors too.)
I get my heat shrink tubing online from NTE Electronics, available in numerous colors.
Harbor Freight also offers an inexpensive, assortment of black shrink-wrap tubing.
Keep us appraised of your progress, and as always...
Hope this helps.
Post Script: The June 2023 (current) Model Railroader Magazine; pg. 56-57, has an article titled, "Your first decoder installation." It's worth check out. (Whoa...178 M.P.H. on the flying mile!!!) H.T.H. J.J.D.I.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnitThe TCS decoder line offers built-in LED and Energy Storage Units- -ESU- -("Keep-Alive") along with advanced sound capabilities.
Someone in another thread found acronyms confusing. My post refered to ESU = Electronic Solutions Ulm GmbH & Co. the Loksound/Lokpilot manufacturer.
The ESU that JJ refered to has a bunch of different proprietary names, Keep Alive, Power Pack. Or you can make your own. Look up Larry Puckett's youtube channel.
Randy recommended this soldering station. I have that one or an earlier model, very happy
I agree with his use of correct wire colors.
Never mind. Deleted my first post.
I sure miss Randy and his comments.
I use my soldering iron for the heat shrink. Just rub the hot iron over it.
I usually secure everything with Kapton tape. It's a bit expensive, but the roll and the tape last forever.
Older locos, I scrap the light board, and hard wire.
Newer locos, I replace the board with the reccomended "drop in" board type decoder.
As mentioned, the TCS web site has great DIY pictures whether you use their decoders or not.
I like that soldering station Henry, I still need to get one.
Some speaker installs will require you to remove parts of the weights and/or frame to make room.
There are endless YouTube tutorials on everything from decoder installs, lighting, sound and special effects.
As a last resort, there are many people you can send your loco to, and they do the work, you just pay them for it.
Mike.
My You Tube
ok guys I'm converting all engines to DCC, they have led's, new Kato motors one has a China motor recommended on my bb gp9 posts.
sound is now the thing for these locos, soldering is no problem.
I thought a drop-in board would work best, but the amount of systems is mind-blowing, I just today looked at NEC5240106 and NECD13J, Digitrax SDX166D, SDh16K1B just a few.
now as I've spent 60 years as a high-end technical engineer I can shoulder haha and I can't spell worth a damm.
(nonrailroad speak I just took my 1972 Charger to the silver state running mile and went 178 miles per hour)
I thank you all for your info and time :)
John
Good luck John.
72 Charger! Nice.
Yes there is a lot to choose from. I'm not much for sound, so if I did do some sound conversions, I'd look for easiest method, haha
So many now are using the ESU thing, but I think you need to buy one of their programmers to customize CV's.
Have fun! Keep us posted.
mbinsewi Good luck John. 72 Charger! Nice. Yes there is a lot to choose from. I'm not much for sound, so if I did do some sound conversions, I'd look for easiest method, haha So many now are using the ESU thing, but I think you need to buy one of their programmers to customize CV's. Have fun! Keep us posted. Mike.
Mike. No you don't need a programmer for CV changes. The main use for the programmer is to install or change to a different sound set. For example. If I was to remove a decoder from a steam engine and put it in an ALCO switcher, I can with the programmer download and install the ALCO sound set.
Adjusting settings on the motor, lights, and volumes is done with CVs just like any other decoder.
Thanks Pete, now I know.
Digitrax told me on the phone that the best for my project would be either SDXH167D or SDXH166D,166 can be soldered in without a light board, same with the 167, the 167 has more functions. I will probably go with the 166d, hopefully, you guys will think that is a good idea for the project, you all know best just suggest away.
(by the way, my charger is a street car,500hp 600lbtq at 6000rpm) my 1950 Ford is a daily weekend driver that has 1000hp 800lb tq and runs 8.50 seconds in the quarter mile when opened up to race), well enough of that now back to trains.
Just the fact that you were able to talk to a human tells me that Digitrax has gotten their stuff together. More than twenty years ago they gave me a very sour time about a decoder warranty and I never looked to them ever again. A simple plug in decoder fried on a program track and the claim was mis installation. Really? Simple 8 pin plug? Gee, another brand of decoder has been working in it for more than 20 years now. I don't know how it could be mis installed.
Good luck with your wiring.
First things first...
John Gray...my charger is a street car,500hp 600lbtq at 6000rpm) my 1950 Ford is a daily weekend driver that has 1000hp 800lb tq and runs 8.50 seconds in the quarter mile when opened up to race...
Oh yeah!!!
Now, back to trains...
As I've posted, I've had great luck with Digitrax non-sound decoders.
Recently I purchased five (5) of the SDXH167D sound decoders. These include the speaker and a capacitor for the sound only.
I plan on installing the first one in a Proto2000 H10-44. It currently has a Digitrax DH126 series non-sound decoder that I hardwired.
The sound decoder uses the same 9-pin plug as the non-sound.
By first installing the non-sound decoder I should be able to use the same 9-pin plug- -in theory- -on the sound decoder.
I will let you know how that worked in a separate thread- -stay tuned.
The "Word on the street" is Digitrax Original Equipment Manufactured (OEM) speakers leave something to be desired and that upgrading to Scale Sound System speakers is a vast improvement.
We'll see...
"Tune in next time...same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel!"
John GrayI thought a drop-in board would work best, but the amount of systems is mind-blowing, I just today looked at NEC5240106 and NECD13J, Digitrax SDX166D, SDh16K1B just a few.
A decoder is a decoder, any decoder can pretty much be used in any engine, as they all basically are built to the same NMRA standards and do pretty much the same thing. It's not like an Atlas GP7 has to have an NCE decoder but an Atlas RS-11 only will work with a TCS one. You might find you prefer one brand because of it's features (sounds, lighting options, ease of programming CVs, etc.) but if you have say an engine with a 9-pin receptacle basically any 9-pin decoder can be plugged into it.
Since cars have come up, think of it this way. My car uses 18" wheels. A number of companys make tires to that size. I can pick whichever company's tires I want to put on the car, as long as the tires fit that size wheel.