DCC Nightmare

[kenben]

I have 2 Broadway Limited Paragon engines. When I first got them they tested out fine. Now I  have major DCC issues where one doesn't even start up any more and the other seems to have issues getting power from rail to engine. It just starts and stops all the time. Tracks and wheels have all been cleaned. And I'm still a rookie at DCC.

My GE AC6000 won't even power up. I have a NCE Power Cab. It ran fine when I got it. I dial in the engine number and none of the function buttons work. I am programing on the main. I tried to reset it but got zero results. As I said, I'm a rookie with DCC programing.

The issue with my BL EMD SW1 500 switcher is when I power it up everything works. When I start it run it it will go for a few seconds and then stop dead. Then it might start to run again but stops again. I've cleaned the wheels with alcohol. I've cleaned the tracks. All my other engines run fine. Sometimes if I add a little pressure from the top of the engine it will start to run. It's acting like there is a bad or loose connection somewhere. Power at the track is good. I'd be a bit leary to open up the engine.

Suggestions, tips for re-programing the GE, and getting my swtched to run normally??? Thanks  

[wjstix]

kenben

My GE AC6000 won't even power up. I have a NCE Power Cab. It ran fine when I got it. I dial in the engine number and none of the function buttons work. I am programing on the main. I tried to reset it but got zero results.

Maybe try programming CV1 (short address) to say "03" then see if the engine responds under ID 03. 

kenben

Sometimes if I add a little pressure from the top of the engine it will start to run. It's acting like there is a bad or loose connection somewhere.

I would open it up and look. As you say, sounds like it might be a wire connection came loose, maybe from one of the trucks. Might be it could easily be soldered back in place. You won't hurt anything by looking.

[BigDaddy]

kenben

I tried to reset it but got zero results. As I said, I'm a rookie with DCC programing.

Then maybe you should tell us how you did the reset.  The Powercab has a reset decoder function, but according to the late Randy Rinker, it only works reliably with NCE decoders.  Writing 8 to CV8 and then turning the power off and on works on most decoders.  However numerous pepole report problems programing BLI decoders with the Powercab.  See this thread

Your other engine does sound like something is loose.  Are either of these under warranty?

[jjdamnit]

Hello All,

Welcome to the nightmare of Trouble Shooting! (Gremlins are not necessarily limited to DCC.) 

kenben

I have 2 Broadway Limited Paragon engines. When I first got them they tested out fine.

How were they initially tested- -DC or DCC?

If tested with DCC did you use the NCE system or was it another manufacturer?

What address did each unit respond to initially; a 2- or 4-digit address?

Is it on the same track arrangement- -Has anything changed?

kenben

I am programing on the main.

When in the "Programming Track" mode it is possible to "broadcast" and re-program all locomotives to the same address.

Try removing all locomotives, except the one you are programming, from the layout to make sure the system is only "talking" to one locomotive.

kenben

I tried to reset it but got zero results.

Did you set CV8 to V=8 (no need for preceding zeroes) and then "cycle the power" (remove and replace the units from the track) before re-testing at address 3?

Unfortunately, the NCE Power Cab doesn't have the capability to set up a dedicated programming track, like the Power Pro based systems.

For that, you will need an NCE Auto SW. (The NCE website lists them as "Out Of Stock." (Search under "NCE Auto SW.")

Keep us informed on your progress and as always...

Hope this helps.

[drgwcs]

Bli engines have a manual reset switch.on the one that is not responding that likely will reset it and I would try it on the other as well.  There have been three varieties. One is a magnetic Reed switch then there is a pull out type and an extremely small push button. If you Google BLI reset video a couple of videos should come up giving detailed instructions. You might also try hitting F6 a couple of times to see if it wakes up. 

[wrench567]

  Would you be running them on sectional track or soldered flex track? Sectional track like Bachman EZ track can lose electrical connection between track sections.

  Your Power Cab has a built in amp meter. I can't recall how to call it up but it is in the manual. Call up the amp meter and see if it reads any current going to the decoder.

  It would behoove you to acquire a length of flex track for a test and programming track. Good soldered connections to the Power Cab panel is a must.

       Pete.

[kenben]

UPDATE:

On my GE AC6000 I was able to get a reset. I got very loud sound and the engine came to life and ran almost one complete trip around the layout.... then it juust died. I tried to do another reset but no good. Back to square 1.

The track is all Peco 83 flex track HO. Everything has been DCC since I started building this layout.

I'll get back to review the rest of the info provided here tomorrow.

Thanks

[hon30critter]

jjdamnit

Unfortunately, the NCE Power Cab doesn't have the capability to set up a dedicated programming track, like the Power Pro based systems.

Hi jjdamnit and kenben,

My NCE Power Cab has a programming track function. When I push the 'Prog/Esc' button on the lower left, the first option offered is 'Programming on the Main' but if I scroll through the options by pushing the button three more times, I will see the 'Programming Track' option.

Cheers!!

Dave

[tstage]

jjdamnit

Unfortunately, the NCE Power Cab doesn't have the capability to set up a dedicated programming track, like the Power Pro based systems.

For that, you will need an NCE Auto SW. (The NCE website lists them as "Out Of Stock." Search under "NCE Auto SW.")

You only need the Auto SW if you want a dedicated programming track as part of your layout, when powered by the Power Cab.

You can easily set up a spare piece of track at your bench and use that as a programming track with your Power Cab.  Press PROG/ESC 4x, press ENTER and - voila! - you are in programming track mode.  That's the advantage of the Power Cab throttle over the ProCab.

Tom

[wrench567]

    Are these your only locomotives? If you have others how do they run?

 An autoswitch for Power Cab is available. But you could also put in a DPDT toggle switch to the program track also. Still, the built in amp meter is useful to see if the locomotive is drawing current.

    Pete.

 

[BigDaddy]

All the hocus pocus about auto switches and dedicated programing tracks isn't going to help the OP overcome the BLI uniqueness of it's decoders. 

Look through the archives and for ever person having a good experience with BLI there will be 2 or 3 that ripped out their decoders and replaced them with decoders that are actually compatible with NCE and Digitrax command stations.

[York1]

I agree with several others.  Do you have other brands of locomotives that run OK?  If so, then you may be headed to changing the decoders to get satisfaction.

[wrench567]

 Long time BLI/NCE user and have zero issues. Even the old Blueline locomotives. The OP could have a bad decoder but 2 at once in two different locomotives? The odds are astronomical. The only issues I have had with BLI was a cracked gear on the first run of the I1sa and a chuff sensor on the J1.

  There has to be an underlying condition. Broken wire to the motor, track joiners not soldered, an accidental programming of CV15 or 16. Proper troubleshooting is the ticket. Not the " Your stuff is junk."  

   The OP said wheels and track are clean. Even a rub down with alcohol can leave a film behind. This is why I rub down the rails with an old T shirt after the alcohol cleaning. You won't believe what's left behind that the T shirt picks up.

   A proper quarter test is in order. Something most MRs seem to skip. Clean wheels with the shirt also and a dry spot too. Replace every plastic wheel on the road with decent unplated wheels.

    This should get an idea weather track or locomotive is the issue.

         Pete.

[Pruitt]

kenben

The issue with my BL EMD SW1 500 switcher is when I power it up everything works. When I start it run it it will go for a few seconds and then stop dead. Then it might start to run again but stops again. 

Is that loco a Paragon3? Sounds suspiciously like the problems I had with a Paragon3 Consolidation. I wound up sending it back to BLI, and they fixed it. Sent me instructions on what to do if I ever had to do a factory reset. If your unit's a Paragon3 let me know and I'll find the instructions and post them.

[wjstix]

It wouldn't hurt to try running each engine on DC. If the one not responding to the DCC signal runs on DC, it's something with the decoder (or more likely the programming). With the other, a loose wire connection will cause the same trouble on DC as DCC. At least it would narrow down the possible issues with each engine.

p.s. Mark - based on the BLI website, it looks like the AC6000 is Paragon 3.

[jjdamnit]

Hello All,

...

tstage

You only need the Auto SW if you want a dedicated programming track as part of your layout, when powered by the Power Cab.

That's my point...

A DEDICATED programming track!

hon30critter

My NCE Power Cab has a programming track function.
When I push the 'Prog/Esc' button on the lower left, the first option offered is 'Programming on the Main' but if I scroll through the options by pushing the button three more times, I will see the 'Programming Track' option.

It's the same on the Pro Cab to get to the "Programming Track" function.

With the Pro Cab the difference is the command station/booster goes into programming mode:

• On the command station, the "Status Light" (left side) blinks rapidly.
• The track power output is disabled.
• And the "Programming" output on the command station/booster becomes active.

A stand-alone piece of track can be powered from the "Programming Track" output or a programming section can be incorporated into the layout.

If incorporating a programming track into the layout that section of track needs to be isolated (gapped) and a DPDT Switch is used to toggle between the Track Output and the Programming Track output, as illustrated on pg. 78-79, of the Power Pro System Reference Manual (Version 1.1.13).

On pg. 4 of the NCE Power Cab System Reference Manual (Rev. 1.65); under the "Programming A Locomotive Address" section it says:

"#1 The first item of business in this section is to remove any locomotives from the layout that will not be programmed."

Even though you are using the "Programming Track" mode it "broadcasts" to all decoders on the layout.

On pg. 12, of the same manual, it outlines how to set up "A Separate Programming Track" incorporated into the layout using a DPDT Switch from the powered UTP.

Page 13 discusses the use of the NCE Auto SW unit along with the powered UTP with the Power Cab.

tstage

You can easily set up a spare piece of track at your bench and use that as a programming track with your Power Cab. Press PROG/ESC 4x, press ENTER and - voila! - you are in programming track mode. That's the advantage of the Power Cab throttle over the ProCab.

If the Power Cab needs to be wired through the powered UTP to the layout (pg. 14; NCE Power Cab System Reference Manual) how do you suggest wiring a separate piece of track from the single output of the powered UTP?

Having a separate output on the command station/booster "is an advantage of the ProCab over the Power Cab system."

Personally- -I have a bench programming track using a Digitrax PR3 running JMRI DecoderPro through my Mac.

This is an option worthy of another thread.

Hope this helps.

[tstage]

jjdamnit

If the Power Cab needs to be wired through the powered UTP to the layout (pg. 14; NCE Power Cab System Reference Manual) how do you suggest wiring a separate piece of track from the single output of the powered UTP?

No, what I meant was having a 2nd dedicated PTP panel and programming track at one's workbench; separate from the layout.  Do all your programming & tweaking there.  Then, once satisfied, bring the locomotive over to the layout.

That's my preference.  If it isn't yours - that's okay.   Agreed.  Better for another thread...

Tom

[jjdamnit]

Hello All,

Again- -...

tstage

...having a 2nd dedicated PTP panel and programming track at one's workbench; separate from the layout.

That would require an additional PCP - Power Cab Connection Panel ($26.95) and a P114 power supply ($39.95) versus the cost of an Auto SW ($32.95).

At MSRP that's a difference of $33.95 (-S/H)!

If the OP is concerned about cost, the Auto SW is the less expensive, and easier, option.

Hope this helps.

[BigDaddy]

jjdamnit

On pg. 4 of the NCE Power Cab System Reference Manual (Rev. 1.65); under the "Programming A Locomotive Address" section it says: "#1 The first item of business in this section is to remove any locomotives from the layout that will not be programmed."

Even though you are using the "Programming Track" mode it "broadcasts" to all decoders on the layout.

Before I moved, I had a modular switching layout, 2' x 12'.  It is currently undergoing expansion.  I did exactly that, There was only one loco on the layout and was successful in programing NCE, TCS, Bachman and ESU decoders.  No Auto Switch, no workbench. 

If the OP has a layout like Howard Zane's, removing 20 or 30 locos would be a pain.  That is a practical consideration, but is there a layout that couldn't be used as a programing track, just on the basis of size?

[tstage]

jjdamnit

Hello All,

Again- -...

tstage

...having a 2nd dedicated PTP panel and programming track at one's workbench; separate from the layout.

That would require an additional PCP - Power Cab Connection Panel ($26.95) and a P114 power supply ($39.95) versus the cost of an Auto SW ($32.95).

At MSRP that's a difference of $33.95 (-S/H)!

If the OP is concerned about cost, the Auto SW is the less expensive, and easier, option.

Hope this helps.

Orrrrr...you could just "borrow" the P114 power supply from the layout.  And it's probably in stock.

Let's move back to the topic at hand, please - Thanks.

Tom

[jjdamnit]

Hello All,

And now- -back to the thread at hand...

kenben

On my GE AC6000 I was able to get a reset. I got very loud sound and the engine came to life and ran almost one complete trip around the layout...then it juust (SIC) died.

You said you got sound, was this "normal" sound(s) or a grinding noise?

How far did it travel before stopping; approximate distance or time (not knowing the size of your layout)?

Did it die after a curve to the left or right?

After it stopped did you pick it up to see if it was warm to the touch (overheated)?

This is a weird one- -Did you smell it? Specifically around the wheels and motor.

Overheating or burnt electrical components have a distinct acrid smell.

Is it possible to completely remove the shell and run it?

Can you darken the room and look for sparks with the shell off?

When you say, "...it just died." I'm presuming there were no light or sound functions.

If the light and/or sound functioned when it stopped I would suspect a cracked gear.

However, if there were no light and/or sound functions it leads me to an intermittent short that might be "spiking" (killing) the decoder.

Running it on DC is a great way to determine if it's the motor.

Do you have a multi-meter or "Beeper" (continuity device)? (Having a set of Aligator clips on a short jumper can help.)

Touch or clip one probe to the black or red wire at the decoder (If you can remove the wire from the decoder all the better.)

Put the other probe on a wheel that feeds the same side of the decoder. You should get a continuity sound- -a constant tone.

Swing the trucks through their arc, if the tone stops that indicates a break in the electrical path.

Repeat with the other side of the decoder input and wheels.

If no break is found clip one probe to a wheel and touch the other probe to the metal frame.

You should get no tone indicating the wheels are isolated from the frame.

Again, swing the trucks back and forth. If you get a tone that indicates that the wheels are shorting against the frame.

Try to isolate the position of the truck/wheels where you get a tone, then look for where they contact.

If this occurs you might need to file down a portion of the frame that is making contact with the wheels.

As a retired electrician I understand the frustration of "Chasing Gremlins" in electrical systems.

Good luck, and as always...

Hope this helps.

[wjstix]

BigDaddy

If the OP has a layout like Howard Zane's, removing 20 or 30 locos would be a pain.  That is a practical consideration, but is there a layout that couldn't be used as a programing track, just on the basis of size?

It's unlikely a layout that big would just be wired as one big block. If the layout had say 10 separate power blocks (tracks separated electrically), and each had some type of on-off switch (handy when tracking down electrical shorts or other problems), all you'd have to do is make sure the engine you want to program is in a block by itself, and then turn off the power to the other 9 blocks. The engines in the unpowered blocks wouldn't be affected. 

[kenben]

jjdamnit

You said you got sound, was this "normal" sound(s) or a grinding noise? How far did it travel before stopping; approximate distance or time (not knowing the size of your layout)? Did it die after a curve to the left or right?

 

JJ, lots of info you've given me, so I'll have to go through all of it and reply. But what I have been able to do so far is I got it to reset the DCC settings and so far is will stort up using the default long & short code of 3. This allows me to start the engine. Lights work. Sound works normally. And it will run. But it still is derailing as it enders a curved turnout. The front wheels of the front truck just slide off the rails. When it does the engine just shuts down like a short has just happened.

It's not overheating. No smell of overheating.

So far all the other tested engines have no derailing issues into the curved turnout.

The battle goes on.

[jjdamnit]

Hello All,

kenben

...what I have been able to do so far is I got it to reset the DCC settings and so far is (it) will sort (SIC) up using the default long & short code of 3.
This allows me to start the engine. Lights work. Sound works normally. And it will run.
But it still is derailing as it enders (SIC) a curved turnout.
The front wheels of the front truck just slide off the rails.
When it does the engine just shuts down like a short has just happened.

Thank you for the additional information!

kenben

But it still is derailing as it enders (SIC) a curved turnout.

This is significant...

I presume we are talking about the GE AC6000; a six-axle road unit.

Whereas the EMD SW 1500 is a four-axle switcher.

Also, I am presuming you are referring to HO.

Do you know the radii of the "curved turnout" or the manufacturer?

My suspicion- -just "spitballing" here- -is that the truck swing on the six-axle unit is not compatible with the radius of the turnout or curve.

kenben

The front wheels of the front truck just slide off the rails.

The radius of the curve is too "tight" for the limited "swing" of the truck(s).

When the loco encounters the small radius curve the truck(s) can't turn tight enough, hitting their limit, thus derailing the front trucks and causing a short.

Think of it this way- -you are driving a long wheel-based vehicle and trying to make a U-turn in an alley.

Going "Lock to Lock" on the steering wheel won't allow you to make the U-turn, not because of the width of the alley, but the turning radius of the car. (This is what manufacturers refer to as "Minimum Turning Radius.")

Regarding the EMD SW 1500, because of its four-axle, short wheelbase, it is well suited to handle the smaller radii curves but when moving through "longer" turnouts the wheels hit a "gap" in the electrical continuity of an unpowered frog and "stutter," lag or completely shut down.

In this situation powering the frogs of the turnouts is one option.

Another solution would be installing some sort of Energy Storage Device (ESD) [A.K.A. "Keep Alive®," or "Power Xtender®."] (Check the decoder manufacturer for compatible units. Some ESDs don't play well with some decoders.)

Keep the responses/questions coming and as always...

Hope this helps.

Post Script:
In regards to the GE AC6000, what type of couplers are you using?
It is possible that the trip pin might be catching on a part of the turnout and causing the front end to "skip"- -raise up- -enough to derail leading to a short. 
You can easily check this with a Coupler Height Gage available through many online sources.
H.T.H.- -J.J.D.I.

[richhotrain]

I have been following this thread with interest. My conclusion is that the OP is overwhelmed by the well intentioned suggestions and questions from everyone who has replied to him. 

He has acknowledged that he is a rookie with DCC programming.

kenben

I have 2 Broadway Limited Paragon engines. When I first got them they tested out fine. Now I  have major DCC issues where one doesn't even start up any more and the other seems to have issues getting power from rail to engine. It just starts and stops all the time. 

My GE AC6000 won't even power up. I have a NCE Power Cab. It ran fine when I got it. I dial in the engine number and none of the function buttons work. 

I am programing on the main. I tried to reset it but got zero results. 

The issue with my BL EMD SW1 500 switcher is when I power it up everything works. When I start it run it it will go for a few seconds and then stop dead. 

Then it might start to run again but stops again. 

Whenever I read that a loco runs fine when it is first out of the box, butt then later fails to repeat that perfect performance, I suspect user programming errors, maybe yes, maybe no. 

kenben

All my other engines run fine. 

Sometimes if I add a little pressure from the top of the engine it will start to run. It's acting like there is a bad or loose connection somewhere.  

How many other engines do you have? Are any of the others BLI locos?

If you add a little pressure to the top of the shell and it starts to run, that definitely sounds like a loose wiring connection or jammed motor. If you felt confident, it would be worthwhile to remove the shell and inspect the interior.

kenben

UPDATE:

On my GE AC6000 I was able to get a reset. I got very loud sound and the engine came to life and ran almost one complete trip around the layout.... then it just died. 

I tried to do another reset but no good. Back to square 1. 

A loud sound! Hmm, not very helpful. If the reset is performed properly, but it doesn't seem to work, that could be a decoder problem.

kenben

 But what I have been able to do so far is I got it to reset the DCC settings and so far is will stort up using the default long & short code of 3. This allows me to start the engine. Lights work. Sound works normally. And it will run.

But it still is derailing as it enters a curved turnout. The front wheels of the front truck just slide off the rails. When it does the engine just shuts down like a short has just happened.

ahh, the GE AC6000 derails as it enters a curved turnout. The turnout is too tight for a 6-wheel truck to negotiate. However, if the engine just shuts down, that is not a short. That would seem to indicate a stall, meaning that the rear truck is not picking up power from the track. In any event, when the front truck just slides off the rails, an impending derailment is about to occur.

If the OP is convinced that only the two BLI locos are problematic, and if they are still under warranty, he would be well advised to return the two locos to BLI for inspection, detailing the issues that he has described here.

Rich

[wvgca]

so, did you get the bli locos sorted out ??