Hi folks , so I've decided I will be adding dpdt toggles and bipolar leds to my layout to throw switches. I presently am using a Digitrax Super Chief and Ds64's to control the tortoise switch via the hand controller , I have in the past (15 years back ) had played around with jrmi connected to the layout and plan to reconnect . So to the question, if I connect a dpdt to pin 1 and 8 on the tortoise with an led in series on pin 1 , will this interfere or have any play using jrmi?
thanks
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
The added switch will interfere with and confuse the DS64s and JMRI. If you want to add manual control to turnouts you should use the switch inputs and LED outputs of the DS64s. Confusing for you but the Digitrax/JMRI system will be able to control and keep track of your layout.
Charlie in Northen Colorado
Thanks Charlie I did manage to get a dpdt toggle connectEd and sure enough it did work but as you said the ds64 really did mess up to the point either the ds64's acted like the switch machines had no locking power or no address and I now have to reprogram the addres. Could you please give me some more specific direction on how I can simply connect up the dpdt toggle ? It sounds like the ds64s needs to be disconnected from the edge connectors of the tortoise switch machines completely but would that not take away from jmri turnout controllI got? Lynn
Lynn,
I'll need a little more info. My layout is all Digitrax but I don't use any DS64s. That said, I'll try to decode Digitrax tech documentation and get you started. Digitrax documentation is iffy at best as is their tech support so let me know how you're doing and I'll see what I can figure out. Fortunately I'm an electrical engineer so I've got a slight advantage. Like old IBM manuals, the Digitrax info is clear if previously understood. If you haven't yet you should go to the Digitrax website and read all the notes relative to the DS64. I can send you links if you need them.
I assume you are using the DS64 to separately control one to four Torti. You want some manual control for each turnout independant of the JMRI system and maybe some additional lights on the facia or somewhere. Are you controlling each turnout separetely or are you using route? If using route, where are the routs stored? In the DS64s, in JMRI, or in the command station?
TYhe DS64 can control up to 4 separate turnouts. Additionally each output can actually control two torti in parallel such as for a crossover. My understaning is the DS64 inputs A1-A4 and S1-S4 can control the turnouts manually but you must use momentary switches like push buttons or momentarty toggles. See this knowledge base article:
https://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB393/ds64-with-yard-ladder-manual-route-buttons/
Charlie in Northern Colorado
Yes I’m using one ds64 for 4 tortoise switch machines and no routes setup. Yes I would like to include leds so that I can tell which way the turnout is pointed without having to where an optivisor to see it . Now that you mention momentary switches rather than the dpdt toggles I have , the momentary switches are a must have to allow jmri to work in unison with the ds64’s or can the dpdt’s work but not with jmri ?
Can you refer me to an example on Amazon for both which momentary and fascia installed leds I would need ? Ps the link isn’t working.
Thanks
I fixed the link. Gremlins crept in I guess.
I suspect the momentaries are a must to let JMRI function but I'm still thinking about the situation without JMRI. But if you're eventually going with JMRI why would you want to build something incompatible?
How many DS64s do you have and how mant Torti? Are the turnouts independent from each other? IOW, are they totally separate or are they part of a yard, siding or crossover? BTW, two turnouts in a crossover are usually controlled as a pair as are the two turnouts for a siding. The pairs only count a one WRT the DS64.
Since you don't have the momentary switches which type would you prefer? Buttons or toggles? I really like buttons but it takes two per turnout if you're not using routes.
Re the LED indicators, do you insist on single bicolor LEDs or can you accommodate separate red and green LEDs? I like separates because they are a lot more versitile and the brightness can be individually adjusted with resistors. However, if you want combo LEDs it can be done.
Ok I have 13 turnouts on the layout so without going to the layout to count I would say 4 ds64’s. All the turnouts have tortoise switches except two have Hares for auto throw. Yes all the turnouts are independent of each other. I’ve attached a jpg of my layout.
Yes I agree no use doing the toggles if they don’t play nice with jmri , I actually just moved the desktop computer from my kit building room so it’s within a few feet of a loconet to connect to. I’ve attached a photo of some leds and some push buttons I had from a few years back , please let me know if these can be used. Strangely enough there are 13 push buttons , but you say if I go push buttons I would need two per turnout? Really a shame because I have more than enough dpdt toggles.
https://imgur.com/gallery/nTTKkWM
Having made the decision to use momentary switches you're well on your way. The choices now become more personal preference and dollar driven than technical. The advantage of momentary toggles is one single hole device vs two pushbuttons for each turnout. Your call. Any SPST momentary small pushbutton will work. Yours are fine but finding more of similar appearance may be a problem. Some examples:
https://www.amazon.com/Clyxgs-Button-Switch-Normal-Momentary/dp/B07KX24WWS/ref=sr_1_18?crid=1J1QSL6J5ZBA9&keywords=momentary%2Bpushbutton%2Bswitches&qid=1671722413&s=industrial&sprefix=pushbutton%2B%2Cindustrial%2C187&sr=1-18&th=1
https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Mounting-Momentary-Pushbutton-Switch/dp/B00NQCIFMY/ref=sr_1_66?crid=1J1QSL6J5ZBA9&keywords=momentary+pushbutton+switches&qid=1671722535&s=industrial&sprefix=pushbutton+%2Cindustrial%2C187&sr=1-66
https://www.amazon.com/Uxcell-a14101000ux1001-Mounting-Momentary-Pushbutton/dp/B00TGSS4CS/ref=sr_1_128?crid=1J1QSL6J5ZBA9&keywords=momentary+pushbutton+switches&qid=1671722747&s=industrial&sprefix=pushbutton+%2Cindustrial%2C187&sr=1-128
Your LEDs may be fine but I can't tell from the picture. I prefer the single 5mm diffused type such as:
https://www.amazon.com/EDGELEC-Diffused-Resistors-Included-Emitting/dp/B077X95F7C/ref=sr_1_33?crid=10UZ3KS4FSZGM&keywords=5mm%2Bled&qid=1671722938&s=industrial&sprefix=5mm%2Bled%2Cindustrial%2C149&sr=1-33&th=1
These can be wired with reverse polarity directly across the Torti with separate resistors in series with each LED. The Red and Green LEDs require different currents for equal brilliance so the resistors will probably not be the same value. Also I find that LEDs with a recommended 1K ohm resistors from 12 volts are way too bright. They tend to overpower the layout, particulary for night operations. Therefore I use much higher valued resistors; the values selected by personal preference. Bicolor LEDs have the advantage of a single hole vs two but they also have their limits. I use a mix of red, green, blue and orange depending on application. Can't do with bicolor LEDs.
So now the choices come down to your preference, imagination and budget. Let me know how you progress and please ask for more info if I can help.
I got the two ds64’s reset up with an id number , set for tortoise type and the 4 addresses entered , had to reset one of them to factory default . I tested one of the push button switches connected to the common ground and one of the tortoise sw1 inputs and is working as it should. I’m having a problem getting a led to lite up though and I know it’s not blown because when I connect it in series between pin 8 ( could be pin 1 ) and the ds64’s output for the tortoise , the tortoise operates like normal, any idea what I may be doing wrong?
LEDs can fail either short or open. Either way they will not light but, if shorted, will conduct current in both directions. In my experience they will first fail shorted. Then, if enough current is available from the power source, will burn open. You can test this by reversing the LED you have in series with the Tortoise. The Tortoise should still operate properly.
Connecting a single LED in series with a motor is dangerous for the LED. The inductive kick from the reversing motor will overstress the LED and probably cause it to fail. The cure is another protection diode conected in parallel but reverse polarity with the LED. Connecting two LEDs, red and green, in parallel but reversed, provides this same protection.
Ok this I did know, the same led will lite up when I put a 9 volt battery on it, doesn't lite up green or red though so I will have to order some.
wickmanOk this I did know, the same led will lite up when I put a 9 volt battery on it, doesn't lite up green or red though so I will have to order some.
I'd advise against testing with a 9V battery and no resistor. A 3V coin battery, yes, or a pair of AAs giving you 2.4 to 3 volts yes. An LED straight across a 9 V and you might hear a pop.
I normally use Bi-Color LEDs (2 lead not 3 lead) across my Tortoise wires. On the mains I like red/green and yards I use red/yellow. They're actually paired LEDs in one package.
https://www.allelectronics.com/item/led-6wc/5mm-bi-polar-red/green-led/1.html
There are hundreds of variations out there. Above is but one example. Each LED in series with the Tortoise will reduce voltage (.7V if I recall) but this usually isn't a problem.
Good Luck, Ed
Thanks Ed , that's some good advice, I actually tried the 9v only because the leads wouldn't reach the ends of a AA battery. I will look into those bulbs.
Would I need resistors for these ones ?
wickmanWould I need resistors for these ones ?
Not if they are used in-series with the #1 or #8 lead to the Tortoise. The Tortoise motor acts as the resistor.
Here's my rat's nest of wiring while I'm making changes on the fly with my one and only DS64. You can see my local pushbuttons wired to the inputs and the LEDs are in series with the DC outputs to the Tortoises.
Digitrax_ds64_tryout by Edmund, on Flickr
Thanks Ed your photo really clears this up. Was wondering though why do you have wires going to the A1 as well as S1 , I thought for the push buttons only the common ground and the S1 through S4 were used for the push buttons?I went Ahead and ordered the leds. I think I can do all the push buttons for now and add the leds when they come, guess I better find some more wire.
wickman Was wondering though why do you have wires going to the A1 as well as S1
It has to do with my choice of using "route control" rather than having a "normal/reverse" pushbutton(s). In my case, If I want to select track 3 for a train to enter, I simply press the black pushbutton and the other turnouts align automatically as needed to get the train to track three. In other words a "cascade" effect. To set the route back to the "runner" or main track I simply push the green PB. Alternately I can use any of my throttles to select these routes. The newer DT6xx series throttles are very convenient to select turnouts even while maintaining control of your locomotive.
The inputs can also be setup so that there are two pushbuttons for each Tortoise so you can manually choose which turnout points are aligned for a normal or reverse path.
(Note that I use Normal and Reverse. To me, this is logical terminology copied from railroad practice. Digitrax prefers THROWN and CLOSED which sound ambiguous to me.)
The "normal" route of switch points is the main route through the turnout. The "reverse" points position is the alternate or diverging route, NOT the designated main track.
For route programming the pushbuttons are wired as I show them for MY particular situation.
Cheers, Ed
Ok now I understand, I don't do anything with routes.
First, I'm glad Ed jumped in here. He has real experience with the DS64. I do not so I'm going by Digitrax documentation. This, as you know, puts me at a significant disadvantage.
Second, it looks like the DS64 can be set up with a single pushbutton per turnout, allowing the buttons to toggle the turnouts with each push even without routes. I did not realize this earlier. So Lynn, it looks like your 13 PBs will fill the bill just fine. See this note:
https://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB276/ds64-push-buttons/
Thanks Charlie , all input is appreciated and helpful. ps sorry for late response, not sure why I don't get email notifications.
Ed is this the way your setup is , like in the photo link
https://imgur.com/gallery/1BPI155
wickmanEd is this the way your setup is , like in the photo link
Yes, precisely. You can use two individual LEDs (wired cathode to anode in series) or one bi-polar which is the same thing in one package. Just reverse the LED(s) if the color orientation is wrong. I found some nice bi-color LEDs that are red/yellow which I like to use in yard trackage.
I also use LED panel bezels that are handy for mounting LEDs in control panels. Metal or plastic, there are many possibilities.
Turnout-toggle-22 by Edmund, on Flickr
Thanks Ed , I just wasn't sure if I had to run two seperate pairs of wires out to the fascia but I see now that it is necessary.
Guys I'm moving ahead slowly with the push buttons and leds working at least off one ds64 but I was wondering how do you mount the leds in the fascia board? Do you simply drill the appropriate size hole and slip it in perhaps gluing in place or what's the way to go?
gmpullman wickman Would I need resistors for these ones ? Not if they are used in-series with the #1 or #8 lead to the Tortoise. The Tortoise motor acts as the resistor. Here's my rat's nest of wiring while I'm making changes on the fly with my one and only DS64. You can see my local pushbuttons wired to the inputs and the LEDs are in series with the DC outputs to the Tortoises. Digitrax_ds64_tryout by Edmund, on Flickr Good Luck, Ed
wickman Would I need resistors for these ones ?
Ed what gauge wire are you using going into the ds64? There sure isn't much room.
wickmanEd what gauge wire are you using going into the ds64?
All my Tortoise machines and much of my signaling wiring uses 22 ga. four conductor, telephone wire in an easy to strip jacket.
https://a.co/d/a8efu40
I'm on my third 500 foot roll (last time I bought it in 2017 it was $39/roll)
It is handy stuff.
Thanks Ed for confirming the size of the wire, it's starting to look like a rats nest of wires down below.