First of all thanks to the group for allowing me to join! I have several H.O. scale brands of diecast steam engines from 1959 and later that I would like to convert from DC to DCC. I realize there may be some obstacals to overcome, but am willing to try such an endeavor. Could someone give me the pros and cons of this conversion if it is possible. The first locomotive is a 1959 Fleischmann steam engine 4-6-2 that was given to me in the 60's as a Christmas gift. Over the years I have collected quite a few other diecast engines and recently have had the bug to enjoy my childhood toys once again after being in a box for 45 years. Any help in this process would be much appreciated.
The only real advice I can give is to test the locomotive on DC for amp draw. Then to make absolutely sure the motor brushes can be isolated from the track pickups/ frame.
There may be someone on the ESU Loksound forum that has done it or more familiar with it.
The only Fleischman trains I have is a crane with the support carriages and a DB diesel that never really ran too good but the lighting was ahead of it's time. The first time I ran across micro LEDs, directional colored marker lights and a coreless motor.
Pete.
You need to determine how good the motor is, and you almost certainly need to isolate it from the frame. Older models often had very power-hungry motors that can actually burn out today's decoders. There are often replacement motors available.
I too had trains from that timeframe, although mine were Athearn blue-box engines and had only sentimental value. They ran poorly after decades of storage, and would have required new motors, wheelsets and drive trains. But, it seems you have a better starting point than I did.
Mine were diesels, so I solved the sentimental problem by gutting the engines and turning them into dummies, some with lights, some with sound, to run them in consists as "honorary" engines.
Restoring old engines to operation is a noble endeavor.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I've upgraded a few older engines for sentimental reasons. The first thing to check is it's performance. It should run well in DC before getting into DCC.
The second step, as mentioned above, is to test the amp draw. If it's above 1 amp, I would say change the motor, but there are alternatives. Posting a picture of the motor would help. Do you expect to use this engine for serious operations? Or just get it running on a pike for fun from time to time?
In my humble opinion, using an older engine for serious operations is doable, but should involve a remotoring. Older motors just cannot provide good, slow, motor control. But that's not an issue if you just want to run the thing around a track from time to time...
Simon
Out of 16 steam engines, 7 of the black diecast are in excellent running condition. Mantua, Fleischmann, Gilbert, Roundhouse and a couple of unbranded ones. I will take into consideration of finding out the amp draw to each of them. That is not something I thought of. Thank you for that information. I did have an idea that the motors may need be changed in them along with body ground isolation. My guess is that they would perform better and be more efficient with new motors vs the originals.
Let's see pictures of the internal workings.
I've never done Fleischmann myself.
Hello All,
As Albert Einstein has been quoted saying,
"Once you open a can of worms the only way to get all the worms back in the can is to use a bigger can."
I agree with all the replies to your post.
My question is, have you done a DC to DCC conversion before?
With engines that old a fair amount of soldering will be necessary.
Many older DC engines picked up power from the rails in several different configurations compared to modern locomotives.
Some had offset pickup; the locomotive's wheels would pick up power from one rail while the tender picked up power from the other rail.
This means the tender has to be electrically "connected" to the motor in the locomotive.
While others used the frame of either the locomotive or the tender as an electrical path to the motor.
In this situation, you will need to isolate the motor from the frame and possibly add wheel wipers (contacts) bypassing the frame as an electrical conductor entirely.
As has been posted, the OEM motors might pull too much amperage for DCC decoders- -even "larger scale" decoders, that can handle higher amperages.
Older open frame motors can be "rebuilt" by replacing the older Alnico (iron) magnets with rare-earth magnets.
If not you will need to upgrade to a modern motor.
This might involve fitting a new worm gear from the motor shaft to the gearing in said locomotive.
So...
You have isolated the motor from the frame, added wheel wipers for better electrical pick up, rebuilt the old motor with rare-earth magnets or replace the motor with the proper worm gear to match OEM gears in the drive train, then tested it in DC to make sure the new components work, now you are ready to install the DCC decoder.
We haven't even discussed adding sound...
Now you have to determine if there is enough room in the locomotive for a DCC decoder or will you need to install the decoder in the tender.
If you need to install the DCC decoder in the tender I suggest using the wheels in the tender for electrical pick up. This means you will need to add wheel wipers in the tender wheels and not use the wheels in the locomotive- -unless you want to run more wires from the tender to the locomotive.
Oh, and what about lights?
DCC decoders have output functions to control lights and sound.
If you only want a headlight in the locomotive you will need to run four (4) wires from the tender to the locomotive: two (2) to the motor from the DCC decoder (orange & grey) and two (2) to the headlight (white [F1] and blue [common]).
Most older locomotive wires don't conform to the NMRA modern color code for DCC wiring: Red & Black for wheel pick ups, Orange & Gray for motor power, Blue for the common to the functions, White (F1), Yellow (F2) front and rear lights, Purple for speakers and other colors for more functions.
At this point, many modelers choose to upgrade the light(s) from incandescent bulbs to LED bulbs.
The advantage to LEDs is when properly installed with the correct resistors- -if not built into the DCC decoder- -will last a lifetime and run cooler which avoids overheating of the surrounding structure of the locomotive shell.
For the greatest reliability and ensure no shorts, all soldered joints should be shrink-wrapped. This typically necessitates several sizes, and for troubleshooting, colors of shrink-wrap- -typically just black and red.
After all this, the locomotive is ready for testing. It is recommended that you don't just plunk the now rebuilt locomotive down on the mainline at full track power. If you apply full track power, and something is amiss with the installation, this can fry the decoder or worse damage your DCC system.
This is why a programming track, which limits the current to the track, is advised.
After all this, if all went well you have converted one locomotive. After the first conversion, the next ones should be easier.
I don't mean to dissuade you from converting older locomotives to modern standards. I just wanted to outline the steps necessary for a successful conversion.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
If it's this model:
https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Vintage-Fleischmann-HO-Scale-4-6-2-Locomotive-Loco-Engine-1366-/293016443041
It appears that this is a multiple gear-driven loco. Looking at it from behind, it looks like some kind of flat motor. I think you are getting into quite the challenge, if this is the loco in question. Apart from the amp draw, the motor needs to be isolated from the frame. If my guess is right, it will be quite difficult to do with this engine. And if the gears are out of whack, fixing that may be a major challenge in itself.
The motor in Simon's example looks very similar to the one here:
https://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/1274
except that it's in the tender. Being in the engine, the wiring is likely designed differently, but it looks doable. Of note is that they want the RF choke removed, so that should be done. I also see a comment "Cut link". That looks suspiciously like the connection to the frame. But, again, the motor's in a different place.
I think you'll have to make a wiring diagram, and then decide what wires to cut and/or solder. Yup, looks like some soldering there.
Anyway. It looks far from impossible.
Ed
Edward Sutorik
After reading all of the very informative posts on my question to convert the old dc to dcc, it seems that I should just leave these engines alone and look more towards investing in dcc ready ones. I surely do not want to open up a can of worms that might or might not work and possibly ruining any of these engines that I've had since a young age. With my planned layout I do believe I will need to have dcc instead of a dc setup. With all of the dcc controller choices out there how can one know which system is good, bad or otherwise?
Hi,
I have remotored all my Fleischmann locomotives before converting them to DCC, they were a great inspiration for me due to their high overall quality. Only the motor is rather old technology and gears often sound like a coffee grinder, so I decided either to replace just the motor with appropriate coreless replacement (available on Aliexpress - 7 mm or 10 mm thick), or to make new gearbox and install coreless can motor. The second option is much more extensive but provides virtually silent running.
Below are few examples of both approaches.
New motor only for BR 38 (involves cutting part of original frame and gears):
Old motor removed
New motor ready, part of chassis cut, motor holder glued
Motor glued into position. Perfect smooth and silent running.
New gearbox for BR 94 (later I replaced worm and worm gear for plastic ones), but the gearbox parts are the same
New motor and gearbox in place
New motor only for BR 120, original chassis intact
Shim used as motor support
Shim in place. Motor has to be glued, finished!
Beside motor, you need piping 1,5 to 2,0 mm and new gear. Piping is needed because new pancake coreless motor has 1,5 mm shaft. You could also use gear with 1,5 mm bore, but in that case new gear has to be thick enough, because motor shaft is not long enough to protrude far enough from chasis. You need new gear because original Fleishmann motor has shaft/gear with 2,2 mm bore. Fleischmann uses gears with module 0,5 (I think in US, "module" is called "pitch"). New gears can be found here, I used their service several times, perfect!
One tip: before buying new pancake coreless motor (app. 25 - 30 USD) if you want to experiment, you can buy much cheaper motor for CD/DVD drive (Mabuchi), that can be found for 1-3 USD. It is 3-pole motor (either 5.9V or 12V, I used both with sucess - first 5.9V version because 12V version was not available first, only later, or I simply could not find it), but for testing purposes, and even for moderate use (not for hours with heavy train) it is good enough. Later, if you decide you can buy pancake coreless motor I have linked above. In any case, you need new gear. For CD/DVD drive motor, which has 2 mm shaft, you need gear with 2 mm bore.
Some videos of remotored Fleischmann locomotives:
P8 (later BR 38)
BR 78 (first only motor changed, then gearbox too)
First prototype of new gearbox for BR 65 - to see if the idea is good. It was.
BR 94 (first running with original motor, then new gearbox without shell, then completed locomotive)
Hope this will give some ideas what to do!
Regards,
Hrvoje
7j43k The motor in Simon's example looks very similar to the one here: https://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/1274 except that it's in the tender. Being in the engine, the wiring is likely designed differently, but it looks doable. Of note is that they want the RF choke removed, so that should be done. I also see a comment "Cut link". That looks suspiciously like the connection to the frame. But, again, the motor's in a different place. I think you'll have to make a wiring diagram, and then decide what wires to cut and/or solder. Yup, looks like some soldering there. Anyway. It looks far from impossible. Ed Edward Sutorik
Fleischmann motor cover design changed over decades, but principle was always the same. Older covers do not isolate brush holder from frame, and in older motors it is sometimes impossile to modify motor cover (German: motorschild) in a way that brush holder is isloated from a frame. In such cases, to keep old motor, new motor cover shall be installed.
Here is an overview of many different Fleischmann motor covers, some of them can be "converted", some not. In left column original "DCC not compatible" covers are shown. In middle column covers are shown whcih can be converted by cutting part of PCB. In right column only DCC compatible covers are shown.
This web site is in German, but offers many pictures with examples how to convert older Fleischmann locomotives to DCC without replacing the whole motor, so foreign language is not a problem, pictures are in most cases enough.
Warich With all of the dcc controller choices out there how can one know which system is good, bad or otherwise?
I would suggest a separate post for this - then sit back and watch the fun
There are a couple of very good systems out there and each has it's benefits - and fans. If you have a local club, or mrr friends, ask what they use. If you can look at units at a hobby shop, hold them - which feels better in your hand? Which seems easier. I have the NCE starter system and it works for me but you may want something different.