I'm new to trying to speed match diesels in dcc, using just the 28 speed steps, on an NCE Powercab system:
My son has two of the Genesis SD90MAC-H engines, and I will have a larger fleet of Bowser SD40-2's once they are all here (most -2's on hand are plain dc right now but some do have dcc/sound). We now have some longer freight trains that will actually require two diesels to work together, so it makes sense to speed match the Genesis (Tsunami) units with the Bowser (Loksound 5) units.
To complicate matters, Athearn does NOT state dcc default settings in the manual, because it is written for more than one engine. The Bowser settings for Loksound 5 are CV2 (min voltage)=1, CV3 (acceleration time)=20, CV4 (deceleration time)=20, CV5 max voltage = 255, CV6 (medium voltage) = 88.
The Bowser units run extremely well at slow speed, run slower at most speed steps, and are slower at the top end, with nice smooth accel/decel, too. The Genesis units are racehorses by comparison, and clearly have NO accel/decel time, so I set them to match the Bowser at 20 (after playing with other settings). I lowered min voltage on the Athearn units to 0 because they move at speed step 1 and the Bower doesn't move till speed step 2 (which I apparently cannot find any adjustment that will start them moving at 1). I lowered (Athearn) max voltage to 190 and medium voltage to 60. This all was after 2 hours of playing around with them trying to get them to match.
So after 2 hours I have adjusted the Athearn settings to max voltage 190, medium voltage 60, accel/decel time 20 each, and min voltage 0. They will run together now, but I think I can still make some minor adjustments. As speed is increased to step 28 the Bowser unit starts to pull away slightly, but at slow speed the Genesis may still be a little faster.
I'm trying to get them to match as evenly as possible at all speed steps.
Is there something I am missing? If I adjust PWM will that make a difference in speed? Does it sound to you folks like I'm on the right track?
Also, the newest Loksound 5 Bowser units are just slightly different from the earlier Loksound units, and dcc settings are different. They DO run together, but not quite as well as I'd like. I would really like to get the Loksound 5 units moving at speed step 1, but have been unable to accomplish that. If I could, they would better match the earlier Loksound Bowser versions (and the Genesis units too)--all of which actually start creeping at speed step 1.
Thank you all.
John
If I can get them dialed in correctly, these power sets could operate together for years.
PS It seemed that at any minimum voltage setting at or above 1 that the Genesis units were starting just too fast.
Well, after further testing, I now have the following settings for CV3, CV4, CV5 and CV6: 25, 20,160,48, for the Genesis Unit. Bowser unit is still 20,20,255,88.
Very different speed curve for the Genesis unit relative to Bowser. Not bad, just different. I like speed and the Genesis 2.0 units will roll a freight train.
The engines are matched very well on the low end between speed steps 4 (of 28) and 9 or 10. At 14 they are close but the Bowser starts to pull away slightly, and at 28 the Genesis unit seems almost even.
Since most of the time I will be operating between speed step 10 and 22 or so, I may try a couple more minor adjustments but they are actually getting close now. I just don't want them fighting too much and prematurely wearing wheel plating off--especially in any kind of emergency stop when cat jumps on layout. Also, I want them smoothly accelerating and decelerating together. After setting the CV 3 and 4 to 25 and 20 respectively, the 25 helps to slow the fast start of the Genesis unit just a bit till the Bowser gets rolling, and the 20 helps the Genesis unit to slow to a complete stop in about the same time as the Bowser.
It has taken me almost 4 hours of adjusting and testing to get them running as closely together as they are.
If there is a better way or if adjusting PWM will help, someone please let me know. Thank you.
John,
If you want to really fine-tune the speed curve for each locomotive you can always implement speed tables - i.e. CV67-CV94. That said, if you get "close enough" with just adjusting CVs 2, 5 & 6 - that should be good enough.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
You should do some speed matching with the engines coupled together and with a train behind them. That will be different from just the two engines. I would imagine the lead engine will always appear to run faster, and if uncoupled from the second engine, will just run away because the second engine is pulling a train.
Also, remember that if you have a fleet of identical engines, the DCC settings won't all be the same.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks for the replies.
I now have the 2 Genesis 2.0 units set with exactly the same CV settings and they are matched well with each other and the Bowser SD40-2.
I put them to work tonight and they did pretty well together.
PRR8259 Thanks for the replies. I now have the 2 Genesis 2.0 units set with exactly the same CV settings and they are matched well with each other and the Bowser SD40-2. I put them to work tonight and they did pretty well together. John
A little late to the party here, but for ATHG Tsunami2 if you set CV215 to 15, it will slow them down from starting creep and throughout the curve. I like switching so that is the first thing I do with the T2 Genesis.
If Bowser's run slower, setting T2s right away might get you to a place closer to begin with before having to make the subsequent adjustments.
Again, a bit late to the party here.
- Douglas
PRR8259Well, after further testing, I now have the following settings for CV3, CV4, CV5 and CV6: 25, 20,160,48, for the Genesis Unit. Bowser unit is still 20,20,255,88.
CV5 is the engines speed at full throttle , CV6 is speed at 1/2 power. Part of the problem you're having may be because the Bowser unit's CV6 isn't 1/2 of CV5. It's set so that at 1/2 power the engine is going about 1/3 top speed.
You can set engines that way if you want - in theory at least it gives you more control at slower speeds - but can make it a lot harder to speedmatch. I find it a lot easier to not use CV6, I just set it to 0. Then you have a straight line speed "curve", where each of the speed steps increases speed by the same percentage.
You can always slow an engine down by reducing CV5, but you can't speed up a slow engine beyond CV5's top setting. It's usually best to determine with CV5 at full (255) to determine which of your engines are the slowest, and slow down the others to match. The slow engine is your "golden engine" that the other engines are adjusted to match.
When I'm speedmatching a new engine, I use these settings first: CV2 = 0, CV3 and CV4 = 20, CV5= 200, CV6 (if available) = 0. Then I put the two in a consist with the lead engine being the new one and see how they run together. I then use programming on the main to change the CVs of the new engine. Often, since my 'golden engine' is pretty slow, I make a big reduction in CV5, like by 50 or more, then fine tune it so the two are running at the same speed. Then I adjust CV 3-4 so the engines start and stop together. That process usually takes about a half hour or so.
The engines have rather different speed curves.
I elected to retain the Bowser settings because I have more Bowser engines coming during May and June of this year, so I only wanted to change the Athearn Genesis units as my son has only two of them.
The Bowser Loksound 5 settings are slightly different from earlier Bowser engines of the exact same model (SD40-2), too.
PRR8259The engines have rather different speed curves.
That's why I find it works out best not to use speed curves. You can speed match engines just as well - and much quicker / easier - just using CV 2,3,4 and 5.
It became common knowledge or urban knowledge years ago that running engines with differing speeds would burn up the motor in one of them. I questioned that and asked anyone who had that happen to them to say so. No one responded so I think speed matching to a large degree is not necesary. I am welcome to opposing facts.
I don't think you'd burn up the motor as long as the faster engine isn't so heavy that it's wheels can't spin freely while it's trying to drag or push the slower engine around the line.
However, since it's so easy to speed match engines in DCC, I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to do it?
Douglas--
Thank you for the CV 215 suggestion. I did try it and it got me "closer", but after many hours of adjusting I am actually unable to find any settings that match close enough through the entire speed range of the two locos. The earlier settings I tried do not work or only work for a very long, heavy train. They do not work for a shorter train length: at various points in the speed steps one unit is pushing or dragging the other and you can hear the wheels slipping and grinding when they fight each other and even some gear noise. I'm not going to trash these attempting to match them (already lost some wheel plating on these practically new units). Either I'll get some more help from someone more knowledgeable, or I'll give up (and only run Athearns together and Bowsers together).
Although I can get the speed tables for the Athearn Genesis 2.0 units from the Soundtraxx website, not knowing the Loksound speed tables at all is not helpful.
I'll post something on the ESU forum, but I have to wait several days for approval to be able to ask a question.
Thank you Soundtraxx for spelling out the speed tables on your website! That is helpful.
VERY frustrated with speed matching in dcc, and yes, I tried to do top speed and middle speed/voltage separately as well as looking at everything in between...over MANY hours now.
bump - edited last reply. Perhaps someone else can point me in a more helpful direction? Thank you all.
Sincerely,
Is your primary goal to set up the engines with some unusual speed curves, or do you just want the two engines to work well together?
If the latter, adjust CV29 on each engine to turn speed tables OFF, then set CV6 on each to -0-. Then use CV5 to adjust the speed of the faster engine to slow it down so it matches the other engine. The decoder will create a "straight line speed curve" so both engines should run the same (or at least very very close) at each speed step. Then use CV3-4 to adjust the starting and stopping momentum so both engines start and stop together...if one is really sluggish starting, you may need to add a value to CV2 also.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but you've been working for two weeks on something that should take half an hour.
Hello Stix--
Yes, thank you for your reply. I am well aware it should only take a half hour, and I have 6 or 8 hours into this, at least.
I will have a big fleet of Bowser engines, and they actually run, accelerate, and do everything more smoothly than the Athearn Genesis 2.0 units. Since I will have many more Bowsers than my son's Genesis 2.0 units, I would prefer to adjust only the Genesis units to match the Bowser units.
The engines run very differently. When you get them matching at one speed step--say 28, then at speed step 14 the Bowser is pulling away and just leaving the Genesis in the dust. When you adjust the mid voltage to get them "almost" matching at speed step 14, then at speed steps 2 through 8, the Genesis unit is pushing the Bowser too hard such that wheels slip and grind, etc. AND the Genesis unit may pull up and catch the Bowser between 14 and 28, going too fast for the Bowser on the high end.
I have followed the available guidance and manuals and adjusted speed CV's 2,3,4,5,6, and 215 (as suggested above). The engines are so different that I have not been able to get them to behave together.
Bowser default settings are CV5=255 and CV6=88. I have no idea what the Genesis default settings for the SD90MAC-H are, but I can get the speed tables from Soundtraxx. I have absolutely no idea what the Loksound speed tables look like for the Bowser--cannot find on their website or on ESU.
In plain dc, I can throw engines on the track and find better matchups in 5 minutes flat than this (but not with the SD90MAC-H). In plain dc, the Athearn Genesis GP38-2 is almost a dead perfect match to the Bowser SD40-2 such that they run very well together--AND oddly enough much better than anything I've been able to match in dcc.
So for all the "promise" of dcc being "better" than plain dc, it seems I have found 2 units not designed to match up at all with each other. I posted something on the Loksound forum and received a nice reply from a German telling me how to adjust CV 2 through 6. I understand completely HOW to do it, but I can't get these two engines to match in dcc.
And yes, I of course tried the same ratio between CV5 and CV6 as the Bowser ie if I reduce CV5 on the Genesis unit, then 6 was adjusted to match the same proportion on the Bowser unit. Trust me, that still is not good enough at all. From what I am seeing, one or both speed curve(s) are not linear between the different steps.
I know DCC can be frustrating, but you're trying to do something really complicated by taking engines with an odd speed curve and trying to adjust other engines to match it. It's better to adjust all of your engines up front.
First, check the instructions for each decoder and set CV29 (or whichever CV is needed) to turn speed curves off on all your engines.
Then adjust CV2 and CV6 to zero on all your engines.
Then adjust CV5 to let's say 200 on all your engines.
Then try running them together. You can adjust CV5 up or down a little so they all run at the same speed.
Then you can use momentum CVs (3-4) to help them ramp up to speed and coast to a stop together.
So disabling the speed curves entirely will force all the units to respond in a linear manner?
I really, really wish that was explained in the manuals for the units. It is not, and both manuals refer the user to the manufacturer's website.
Also I read through the entire NCE manual, and either it's not discussed or I missed it.
Thank you Stix.
PRR8259So disabling the speed curves entirely will force all the units to respond in a linear manner?
Yes, although for it to be a straight line across all 28 steps, CV 6 will either have to be turned off (set to zero) or set to 1/2 of the amount in CV5. Setting it to zero would probably be the simplest.
Hello--
I received some guidance from Loksound from Germany:
If I set CV29 = 30 that will tell the Bowser unit to use the 28 step speed curve that is built into the Loksound decoder (in place of CV2, 5, and 6 default settings).
Then given enough patience, I should be able to set the Athearn unit's 28 steps to match the Bowser unit. (This of course assumes I can set the Athearn unit to follow the speed curve settings that I will set in lieu of CV 2, 5 and 6.).
It also appears that Bowser Speed Step 1 is 0 with step 28 also set to 0 and both are greyed out in Lokprogrammer, so I am assuming I cannot edit those. It looks like the Bowser reaches 230 at Step 27 and does not go above that.
It may seem odd, but on some CVs setting it to -0- actually sets it to the maximum. For example, on most decoders the default setting for CV 5 is -0- meaning the engine's top speed on DCC is basically whatever it's top speed was in DC. Setting it to another number reduces the top speed.
Note that decoders don't have a speed curve. They have a choice of speed curves - straight line, concave, convex - although they may come with one as a default. If you have Decoder Pro, a great thing about that is it graphs out the speed curve so you can see how it bends one way or the other.
I'm not so good with computers (other than I live in a 3D cadd world) but I'm ok at math. I don't have to see the curve to be able to understand how the mathematical proportions are working out.
Bowser's curve for this engine is actually two straight lines that touch each other. So it is linear to about the 1/3 point and then breaks at a steeper but still linear slope.
Tsunami has the default settings for the Athearn speed curve available on their website, and I now know what CV's will have to change, so hopefully this will not be too bad other than I will have to check at each individual speed step to see how the two different units match up, and I have to set the appropriate CV in the Athearn unit to force it to read the speed table that I will be re-programming.
I anticipate this will take a little time this weekend...but eventually I "should" be able to get them matching better than before.
Thank you for your suggestions.
Yes it would be two straight lines, but they would change angle at the halfway mark, not 1/3rd of the way. Based on your Bowser's CV6 setting, the line would start out gradually rising from zero to 88 at the half-way mark, so would be about 1/3rd of the way to the top. Then it would change to a steep angle to cover the other 2/3rds from 88 to 255. You're going from 0 to 88 in fourteen steps, then 88 to 255 in fourteen steps.
p.s. Keep in mind it might not actually be two straight lines. If you're using speed curves, depending on the setting, the decoder could set up a convex curved speed curve rather than two straight lines. If you're trying to then speed match that engine to one with a decoder that is using a straight line (or two straight lines) you're going to find it virtually impossible. That's an advantage of Decoder Pro, you can visually see what it's doing.
PRR8259 Hello-- I received some guidance from Loksound from Germany: If I set CV29 = 30 that will tell the Bowser unit to use the 28 step speed curve that is built into the Loksound decoder (in place of CV2, 5, and 6 default settings). Then given enough patience, I should be able to set the Athearn unit's 28 steps to match the Bowser unit. (This of course assumes I can set the Athearn unit to follow the speed curve settings that I will set in lieu of CV 2, 5 and 6.). It also appears that Bowser Speed Step 1 is 0 with step 28 also set to 0 and both are greyed out in Lokprogrammer, so I am assuming I cannot edit those. It looks like the Bowser reaches 230 at Step 27 and does not go above that. John
John. Keep in mind that the settings for the Athearn and Bowser decoders are likely proprietary choices by each producer. Producers establish the characteristics they want, and the decoder maker tailor's the OEM decoder and lightboard to work together. Of course, Athearn doesn't use a light board but a straight hard wired decoder. Loksound uses a 21 pin decoder plugged into proprietary lightboards.
So some of the advice that might come from the aftermarket decoder install perspective might not effect operations the same way as OEM decoders. (I'd be surprised if the guy from Europe had a real clue how the Loky performs in a Bowser lightboard off the top, even if he was a ESU employee)
I just tried speed matching an ATHG T2 GP40-2 with an ATLAS Loksound SD35 and it required nothing special. Its not perfect, but its very close. And yes, the ATL Loksound is much slower than the ATHG right out of the box. Here is what I discovered.
Reset both locos to factory defaults. When you read back the CVs for ATHG, this is what it reads.
CV2=0, CV5=0, CV6 = 0. Obviously there is a built in proprietary/default "speed table" of sorts built into the OEM supplied T2 or else the loco would not move at all.
The ATL Loksound showed this: CV2=2, CV5=255, CV6=80. (similar to your Bowser)
I did not touch the Loksound loco settings. I simply adjusted the ATHG to match the Loksound. These are the settings I found to work:
First, always set your throttle to use 128 speed steps on your OEM sound equipped locos.
For the ATHG:
1. CV215 to 15 (always do this to any ATHG T2, IMO, it slows them down, at least when running on a standard DCC system like NCE).
2. CV3 and CV 4 momentum to 35.
3. CV5 to 255
4. CV6 to 120.
That's it.
No speed tables. No CV29. Just exactly those CVs and values, and I got very close through all speed steps (I stop at speed step 50 of 128...I don't race my locos, LOL). Except the ATHG started to move a little quicker so there was a bit of an imbalance right at the beginning. Don't forget, the Lok has a start up sequence that prevents the loco from moving until its completely finished, disable the start up stop feature with a simple CV setting (I forget what it is)
If this doesn't work, then Bowser has set up some sort of proprietary PC board circuitry for a unique performance that makes the Loksound decoder not play well with others.
Edit: Above speed step 45, the Atlas Lok does pull away from the ATHG T2, so I had to slow down the Lok and make some minor adjustments to other values. These are the final adjustments to the CVs. They run perfectly forward and backwards, accelerate and decelerate to and from speed step 70.
ATHG T2: CV2 =1, CV3 =25, CV4 =20, CV5 =225, CV6 =102
ATL Lok: CV2 =3, CV3 =20, CV4 =20, CV5 =175, CV6 = 70.
Hi Douglas--
I did not get back to these 2 units yet. My MTH HO DM&IR Yellowstones arrived and my son and I have been breaking in the first one...second is still in the box. I want him to do the unboxing so I can teach him the right way to do that, and he has been busy with Scouts, school, baseball etc.
I did try much of what you described, only the match was bad. Tsunami 2 instructions actually say not to set CV215 to less than 60 or the decoder will ignore those settings. I tried several settings for CV215 from 60 through 120 and still could not match the units using CV2, 5, and 6. There was just no way to make them work.
I am told that if I reset the Athearn speed curve at each step 1 to 28, I can make them work.
John, he point is that the factory default setting for CV215 is 160. Its setting the BEMF to run on, to expect, a 16 volt system. The gentleman in the video below says 135 should be the setting for a 13.5 volt system like NCE, but that is still too fast for my taste. (BTW, why would ATHG set the OEM default speed settings of their locos to run like a 1975 DC TYCO, when Bowser, ATL, IM, etc. set them up to run like modelers want them to in 2021?)
This should be required viewing for anybody who buys a DCC/Sound ATHG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIOWGxeO3Uc
SInce 135 was still too fast, I just went all the way as low as I could get. If a 15 setting brings it down to a value of only 60, and that's really what I'm running on, then so be it.
BTW, I have no idea what volts my NCE system delivers, nor do I care.
I would assume most people who buy a 250 dollar ATHG DCC SOUND OEM loco are running it on a modern DCC system, but the engineers have to make it more complex to satisy whatever it is they are concerned about.
Setting 215 to a low value will make the loco run out of top speed quicker than other locos, and that's why I slowed down the Loksounds CV 5 and 6 settings.
I like mine slow, but somewhere between 60 and 135 should be a sweet spot for most people.
And most other locos run slower and better on 28 speed steps than ATHG T2. 128 is preferred especially since the momentum settings on ATHG seem less effective...too much lurching when using 28 steps unless you really crank up the momentum.
DoughlessCV2=0, CV5=0, CV6 = 0. Obviously there is a built in proprietary/default "speed table" of sorts built into the OEM supplied T2 or else the loco would not move at all.
Most (all?) decoders are set up so that CV5 = 0 sets the top speed at 'full power', just as if you set it to 255 or whatever the top figure is for that decoder.
Similarly setting CV 6 to zero essentially turns it off, the decoder just sets up a straight line speed 'curve' between CV2 and CV5.
Using 128 speed steps will give you a much finer adjustment.
It is like using a micrometer to measure inches, lots of units before you get to one inch.
Hello All--
First my apologies for not finishing this up yet. I was a bit frustrated and discouraged and needed a break from this.
The new MTH 2-8-8-4's are here, and I've been playing with and simply enjoying them (without any modifications to any settings at all except turning off smoke units for dcc operation because they take too much voltage in dcc). Best ever steam power on my layout, period, in dc or dcc, bar none. With almost no break-in at all, the MTH 2-8-8-4 will crawl and keep going in speed step 1, with a heavy train, with an appropriate chuff rate properly synchronized to the wheel rotation. They are quite simply awesome. It appears, at the end now, that MTH really nailed it as well as anybody could in HO, and YES, I have watched and listened to the DM&IR videos with live sound.
Hopefully I'll get back to the SD40-2's this week.
I will try to incorporate some of your comments as well as the very specific direction I have now received from a Loksound representative.
I am not changing any of the Bowser/Loksound 5 settings. If one has ever seen and heard a real SD40-2 run (I've spent many hours trackside at Altoona), and then operated the model Bowser has produced, perhaps one might understand why I am retaining the settings just as they are. Also, I will have more of them than Athearn T2 decoder equipped engines.
I'm going to reprogram the T2 speed curve to match the Bowser units, one step at a time if I have to, because the Athearn units could run better than they do. I believe that to be a fair assessment.