Seems they use the exact same encoder for the thumbwheel as NCE uses for the ProCab/PowerCab. If there is any weakness in the NCE cab, it's that rubbery feeling thumbwheel. Hard to accurately describe, but it is kind of mushy and there is no real indication that it's turning. Compared to the knob on Digitrax DT series throttles (at least sicne the DT400, possibly DT300 - I have an old DT100 which has the same rubbery feel when turning the knob), which have a positive physical 'click' as you rotate them. You know you made a change, and adjusted the speed without having to look at the throttle to see the speed display change. You scroll the wheel on the NCE throttle and you sort of guess when you've moved enough, or watch the screen to see the speed change.
I'm sure this is actually fairly easy to replace, but the idea of buying a brand new throttle only to desolder a part and replace it is not really appealing (not to mention it would void the warranty).
I can't be the only one who finds the NCE thumbwheel to be rubbery and indistinct in motion. ANd I really like what the UWT-100 brings - not just operation over WiFi, but a very nifty in throttle consisting option that brings the best of NCE with the best of Digitrax.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I like the encoder thumbwheel on my Power Cab, Randy. Yes, it's stiff but I watch the speed of the locomotive that I'm controlling to determine if it's speeding up or slowing down rather than from the LCD screen. And the thumbwheel is ballastic so I can speed up or slow down quickly - should I choose to do so. Most of the time, however, I use the fine speed step buttons for controlling my locomotives.
I also like the thumbwheel when operating in yard mode. It's centered in the throttle and I can do it one-handed: Up for forward and down for reverse. If it were a knob I'd have to do it two-handed.
Have you actually tried the new TCS wi-fi throttle, Randy? Or are you statements merely observational in regards to the encoder thumbwheel? Also, what would you replace the thumbwheel with?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I don;t have one, I happened upon a series of posts in the TCS Group where someone had BOTH of his fail and one reply that this was rather odd since they used exactly the same component NCE has been using successfully for many many years.
I wouldn;t repalce it with anything else - it's not that it's a thumbwheel, it's the feel. Have you tried a Digitrax throttle and turned the knob? There's no reason the thumbwheel couldn't use a similar encoder and have that same tactile feedback. Not beeps - I turn those off in my Digitrax throttles, I don;t need the thing beepign every time I press a button.
I haven't had a chance to use a Cab06e to see if they use a different encoder for the knob or if it's the same one. The UWT-50 encoder version sounds like it will be a different encoder since it will both turn and click for input the same way the Digitrax ones do. Hopefully a double click will be direction, that makes it very handy to use the Digitrax throttles one-handed. Sort of surprised me the thumbwheel on the NCE throttles do not click. Grandted, it's sideways, so a click encoder cannot be used, but a clickable option would be more like a mouse wheel, so that pressing down on the wheel presses a microswitch, which could be direction or some other handy function - on the UWT-100 where the wheel also scrolls through the on-screen menus, pressing down could be the 'enter' function.
Heck, being an all new design - kind of surprised they didn;t use something akin to what my mouse has - the thumbwheel rolls up and down, you cna press it to perform some function, and you cna also tilt it from side to side for two other functions. I actually rarely use the tilt, there are two other buttons on mine right under my thumb that I use as browser forward/back buttons. But it's there, and this mouse is 9 or 10 years old at least. No idea how much is custom and how much is off the shelf. If it's all custom, I can see it not being used in a model train device.
The wheel on my mouse has a mechanical button that selects between it 'clicking' at each step or turning freely - but even in the free turning mode, it's much smoother than the NCE wheel - almost like it spins in ball bearings instead of just a plastic bushing.
I only have experience with the Digitrax DT series, two encoder throttles. I do appreciate those tiny bumps you feel as you twirl the knobs...small clicks giving you haptic feedback. I think I would probably get used to it as Tom describes, maybe looking for another cue to be assured that my action with the other varieties of throttle is having an effect. It's too bad if some failures are being claimed, though.
Some of the early thumbwheels use a simple mechanical detent, which can be as simple as using a small BB, or a dimple sheet laterally sprung against depressions in the side of the wheel. At least in principle you could make a version of this that could have detenting 'thrown on' and off, or made to switch between adjustable-feel detenting and no detenting. Arguably this lateral detenting could be implemented on the wheel support frame, allowing the adjustment to work reliably while retaining the tilting-switch feature, 'click' via depression, etc.
I have never looked at the physical thumbwheel part in either type, but someone like Ed might be able to disassemble one and show the component parts, particularly how the detenting is implemented (or what passes for it in the mushmaster versions). If the detenting is externally 'accessible' there might be field improvements to be made 'once the unit is out of warranty', or improvement/enhancement suggestions made, knowledgeably now, to the manufacturer or perhaps the component supplier...
I'd take my mouse apart but you can't buy this one anymore and the replacement models I've seen thus far just aren't as nice.I'm pretty sure the mouse is all mechanical, the encoder even is probably an ir sensor with an interrupting disk, not an encoder.
Part of what helps on this mouse is that the wheel is a heavy turned piece of metal, with a rubber strip around it for grip - in the 'free' mode you can give it a spin and it keeps going for a significant time. Not a feature needed on a throttle, not with ballistic tracking available.
That just HAS to be one of the Logitech MX series. A couple of these were interesting for the mutual features some had but others didn't.
These had the feature that centrifugal force unlocked the detenting to allow 'free spin' of the wheel; I don't know if this was done centrifugally or with some other method -- I can think of a couple. The Performance MX had an interesting button that turned the detent on and off, which indicated it might be a powered thing, but I never had one so I don't know how the button does its business.
The Master 3 introduced that interesting Magspeed "detent" wheel (that used a variant of 'magnetic gearing' which gave a smooth feel without mechanical detenting, and automagically disengaged the detent magnet when the wheel was spun with any particular verve ... so it would spin forever with almost no noise and then reengage right as the wheel stopped. Perhaps this is the same 'technology' in the throttle wheels; it might be possible to substitute a small stronger magnet to give a more defined 'click' feel but it would still have relatively mushy engage and pushthrough compared especially to a V-shaped detent pawl.
Actually it's a G500. THe scroll wheel detent is definitely mechnical, as is the button the turns it on and off.
The only silly thing are the weights - it came with a little box of weights so you could adjut the weight of the mouse. After trying various combinations, I put the heaviest weights in it and kept it that way ever since. Seems to better suit general computing (office apps) as well as precision in CAD plus works perfectly for the few games I do play. Plus it has a set of buttons on the top side next to the left main button to select between 3 resolutions, I usually have it on the fastest unless I am trying to draw some precision lines, and I'll step it down for that.
But really this was about a rubbery and gummed up feeling throttle scroll wheel, not meeses. I was just speculating on the potential of using at least a click wheel, if not a click plus side tilt wheel, in a throttle, Might not bring much to the table other than greater finesse in navigationg settings menus. A click or double click to change direction would be the only really useful to have feature for a throttle. It's not easy to use a PowerCab/ProCab one handed as you have to seek out the direction button to change direction instead of just clicking on the wheel.
I don't like encoders at all. There is no physical indication of when you have turned the throttle to full on or full stop. That's especially troubling when using momentum since you don't see any immediate response to your wheel spinning.
Encoders have saved some throttles for a friend who had some operators who kept turning potentiometers past the stops when he was having radio response problems.
Mark Vinski
That's "DC syndrome" - long past it. First thing I bought after my Zephyr (and some decoders) was a DT400 throttle because the limited and inprecise control of the potentiometer was annoying.
Stopping is a non-issue - pretty much any system with encoders has ballastic tracking, spin counter-clockwise and you get stop, no need to look or have a physical stop. You can't get "too stopped". ANd even with momentum (I actually put a good deal of momentum on sound decoders, so I can run them as light engine moves or pulling a heavy train, depending on how fast I increase speed - before all this "drive hold" type of stuff came out), you know it's there, why would you keep cranking the knob? That's in part the point of my post - on the NCE thumbwheel (and presumably the UWT-100, since it uses the same part), it's hard to tell if you are moving the wheel unless you see the numbers incrementing ont he display. On the Digitrax throttles, there is a satisfying click feed as you turn the knob - so uyou KNOW you turned it, without looking at the display, even if the loco is responding slowly due to momentum settings.
Even with relatively high momentum values, if you advance the throttle slowly, the loco nearly keeps up. The delay only happens if you go from stop to some higher speed in one twist of the knob - and I just don't drive my trains that way, never did even in DC days. I slowly advance the throttle to get to the speed I want, rather than letting a momentum section restriuct the jackrabbit start that would otherwise result from quickly increasing the throttle. Except on those sound locos, where a quick twist simulates a heavy train requiring the loco's throttle to be advanced more than just to notch 1 to get moving. Then I back off the throttle as the speed reaches the desired speed. There are other ways on newer decoders now, but those features weren;t always there. The same loco, if I advance the knob one click at a time, takes off quietly like a light engine will in notch 1, no revving of the prime mover.
It's just a much finer control. More degrees of rotation for the same number of speed steps. But it needs to be done right. The lack of tactile feedback is, as I stated, my main issue with the NCE hammerhead. And disappointing to learn is exactly the same on the UWT-100.
rrinker Seems they use the exact same encoder for the thumbwheel as NCE uses for the ProCab/PowerCab. If there is any weakness in the NCE cab, it's that rubbery feeling thumbwheel. Hard to accurately describe, but it is kind of mushy and there is no real indication that it's turning. Compared to the knob on Digitrax DT series throttles (at least sicne the DT400, possibly DT300 - I have an old DT100 which has the same rubbery feel when turning the knob), which have a positive physical 'click' as you rotate them. You know you made a change, and adjusted the speed without having to look at the throttle to see the speed display change. You scroll the wheel on the NCE throttle and you sort of guess when you've moved enough, or watch the screen to see the speed change. I'm sure this is actually fairly easy to replace, but the idea of buying a brand new throttle only to desolder a part and replace it is not really appealing (not to mention it would void the warranty). I can't be the only one who finds the NCE thumbwheel to be rubbery and indistinct in motion. ANd I really like what the UWT-100 brings - not just operation over WiFi, but a very nifty in throttle consisting option that brings the best of NCE with the best of Digitrax. --Randy
You might be interested then in the TCS UWT-50 throttle due out in a few months and can be pre-ordered at lower price. You can choose to order with a potentiometer or an encoder. So you have a choice with this throttle.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I most definitely do not want a potentiometer, but hopefully they will use an encoder more like the one Digitrax uses. They have already said the knob will be clickable like the Digitrax ones, so I'm guessing there will be the tactile 'click' as you turn it as well.
Oh, I misread your first post thinking you didn't like encoders. Anyway, the new TCS throttle will give buyers the choice which is kinda cool. Some do like potentiometers.
No, I'm a big fan ov encoders. I love the fine level of control you get. I just don't like the feel of the one on the thumbwheel on the NCE hammerheads, and then I found out the exact same part is used on the UWT-100 thumbwheel.
I haven't used an NCE Cab06e knob encoder throttle, so I don't know if that one has a nicer feel or not.The NCE throttle is also offered with a choice of pot or encoder.
I just got back from an op session at a friends 1995 era CR layout. He uses NCE and I have a UWT and the WFD so I figured I would try it out at his RR to see what it's like. I've used it on my Buffalo Line but have not run a session in almost a year due to the virus. Plugged in the WFD it powered up as it should . Fired up my UWT and it fired up as it should. Picked a loco and away it went just like it should. I spent about an hour running the NSSC and enjoyed the UWT. I like the feel of the encoder and the feel of the handset with the lanyard. Accessing horn and bell is easy and control of the units a CR SD-45-2 and a Scale Trains -40 GE were great. I like it enough that I ordered another UWT 100 and a UWT-50 when they come out in July of this year. I run NCE and love the system but it's nice to have a new variety of handset to use running trains during a session. Well Done TCS !!! ----------------- Ken
It's not enough to stop me from wanting one, just kind of disappointing. It was an easy thing to rectify. There are many great features - the in-throttle consisting I think goes beyond even NCE's consisting system, for one.
You had Digitrax once upon a time - you should know what I mean, unless you switched back to NCE before Digitrax changed the encoders. The old DT100 throttles use an encoder like NCE - it just turns with a slight resistence. No idea on a DT300, never had one, but the DT400 and up, there is that tactile 'click' feel as you turn it. So you know when you've moved it enough to register a movement.
That's my only compaint really on an NCE throttle (and that the throttle wheel doesn't click to change direction so you never have to move a finger), and based on reading the manual and everything for the UWT-100, that thumbwheel feel is the only thing there I won't like. Everything else seems well executed.
It wasn't clear to me from the answers who actually has a TCS UWT-100 throttle and who doesn't. I do think we should judge equipment based on practical use, rather than projection.
For me this is hands down the best throttle to operate. Personally I prefer the computer mouse style wheel over the knob, and it is one of the reasons I really wanted the throttle. It feel exactly like a mouse, and I believe I have much finer control than with a knob, and I have good feel of how it moves under my finger. Together with watching the engine, it gives me all the control that I want, without ever looking at the speed display. But then, I work with a mouse all day during my job. The throttle also is very ergonomically designed, and feels better in my hand than any of those square throttles I have operated at various layouts.
The availability of this throttle was the reason why I completely gave up my Digitrax sytem, and switched to a Pi-SPROG sytem combined with a TCS UWT 100. Cost neutral, since I sold my Digitrax Zephyr, Radio Throttle and Transceiver panel for about the same price on ebay that it cost me to purchase the new Pi-SPROG based system including the (expensive) TCS throttle.
Which Digitrax radio throttle did you have? If it was the dual knob type, does the wheel on the UWT-100 have the detent like physical click when you turn it like the knobs on the Digitrax throttle?
Even my mouse has the physical click when I scroll the wheel. This is what I miss on the thumbwheel of an NCE cab, and I started this because it was reported that TCS used the exact identical component that NCE uses. I just don't like that rubbery feel.
I had a UT4D Radio Throttle, and what I particularly disliked on that throttle was how to select addresses. I just noticed that those are now retired, so I guess I sold mine at the right time ... Also, those knobs did not have any physical clicks. To me, it was just a cumbersome throttle to operate.
Back to the UWT-100, it does not have the physical clicks that you would want, but I definitely would not describe the experience as rubbery. There is just the right amount of resistance, and the ribs on the wheel provide me with the right amount of tactile feedback. And all other aspects, like changing engines, access to most used sound functions, changing direction are very well implemented.
I guess everyone has different preferences.
The UT4 is a potentiometer - one of the reason I don't like it. The replacement is the new UT6, which has an encoder, an actual display, and you select a loco by keying in the number, not using the dials.
Like I said, I need to get my hands on a UWT-100. I'm going off one known item - that they us the exact same endocer as used by NCE in the PowerCab/ProCab. There's more to it than just the encoder, there's how the rest of the thumbwheel is supported - on the PowerCab it's just plastic, which probably contributes to the rubbery feel. If TCS uses a better way to support the free end of the shaft, that could make it feel entirely different. Unfortunately there's no easy direct substitute - which is probably why TCS ended up using the same Bourns encoder as NCE - it's rather unique.