Here's a question for anyone who runs DC, but has a few engines with DCC and sound. I plan to acquire a BLI Paragon 3 PRR T1, which of course is only available with DCC and sound. My question is what system do you use/prefer to be able to control sounds and change some settings while still running DC? BLI recommends their DC Master analog control module, but I don't know if it will work on any other locomotive brands, should I acquire anymore with sound. I've heard that the MRC Tech 6 Sound Controller 2.0 will work on most of the sound equipped engines, but I'm not sure if the Paragon 3 series is one of them. I'd prefer the MRC unit due to the fact that my current power pack is an MRC Tech 2 2400 series, and I really like the performance and reliability of that brand. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
There are a lot of members that are quite happy with the Tech 6. I operate dual mode DC or DCC, more DC than DCC. I only have 13 decoders and over 70 locomotives. I rarely run more than a handful over short period of time. I use a MRC 7000 Sound & Power for DC and Prodigy Advance² for DCC, one or the other not simultaneously. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Lastspikemike I have a Paragon 2 Pacific and a Paragon 3 Mikado. They produce pretty enjoyable sound action using DC only. Paragon gives instructions on activating other sounds like bells and whistles using the reversing switch and some DCC programming is allowed using the same method. Tech 6 works fine also as long as you remember it is really a DCC only unit. I have one Spectrum DCC locomotive that will not run in reverse using the Tech 6 DC option whereas it runs fine when powered by a Tech 760 or 780. That tells me the Tech 6 isn't delivering "real" DC power but an offset DCC signal, I forget the official name for that but it must be delivering that heavily biased DCC signal to the DC locomotive which prevents the motor from reversing when the DCC reverses phase. Apparently that fakes out my early Bachmann decoder which seems to read that "DC" signal as being for forwards only. If I turn the locomotive around it still runs forwards, i.e. down the track instead of up but still running forwards, using the Tech 6 in DC mode and it will run correctly in both directions using the Tech 7. This locomotive runs in both directions when powered by thec Tech 6 in DCC mode (MRC calls this dual mode). Based on my experience with Paragon DCC I'd just run it with ordinary DC power when necessary and use proper DCC if I want to access more DCC sound features. A Tech 6 is handy in the sense that you can reset a lot of CV values using one if you are a bit DCC savvy and can "see" what you're doing in your mind since the display doesn't show you much.
I have a Paragon 2 Pacific and a Paragon 3 Mikado. They produce pretty enjoyable sound action using DC only.
Paragon gives instructions on activating other sounds like bells and whistles using the reversing switch and some DCC programming is allowed using the same method.
Tech 6 works fine also as long as you remember it is really a DCC only unit. I have one Spectrum DCC locomotive that will not run in reverse using the Tech 6 DC option whereas it runs fine when powered by a Tech 760 or 780. That tells me the Tech 6 isn't delivering "real" DC power but an offset DCC signal, I forget the official name for that but it must be delivering that heavily biased DCC signal to the DC locomotive which prevents the motor from reversing when the DCC reverses phase. Apparently that fakes out my early Bachmann decoder which seems to read that "DC" signal as being for forwards only. If I turn the locomotive around it still runs forwards, i.e. down the track instead of up but still running forwards, using the Tech 6 in DC mode and it will run correctly in both directions using the Tech 7. This locomotive runs in both directions when powered by thec Tech 6 in DCC mode (MRC calls this dual mode).
Based on my experience with Paragon DCC I'd just run it with ordinary DC power when necessary and use proper DCC if I want to access more DCC sound features.
A Tech 6 is handy in the sense that you can reset a lot of CV values using one if you are a bit DCC savvy and can "see" what you're doing in your mind since the display doesn't show you much.
I might be wrong here, and if so someone who uses DCC more often than I do can speak up.
But I suspect that if you do a reset of that Bachmann decoder, then program it to address 3, and turn off DC (whatever CV that takes), it will likely run correctly on the Tech 6, but it will then not run on the DC power packs.
I have lots of hours running DCC, not so much with the programing, but I have lots of friends that do. I suspect it is the dual mode feature that is messing it up.
When in DCC mode, the Tech 6 is just a one channel DCC throttle. There is no "mystery version" of the DCC signal from the Tech 6. Many decoders act silly in dual mode and need to have dual mode turned off to work correctly on DCC.
Especially less expensive ones..........
I reduced the dollar cost average price of my loco fleet years ago selling those basic decoders on Ebay after I pulled them out of Bachmann locos and installed the DC jumper plugs.
They sold like hotcakes.....
Happy my trains are quiet and brainless.......
Sheldon
Seems to be little point in running a DCC loco in the DC mode of the Tech 6. Run DCC locos in DCC mode, and run DC locos in DC mode. Others have this same unit and run their DC locos AND DCC locos - just not at the same time. It can't do that, but neither can anything else, really.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If the Tech 6 does not want to run dual mode DCC locos when set to DC mode, that suggests that the DC output is some sort of pulse width signal, which will give BETTER DC performance but will confuse DCC decoders.
All of this just underscores the point of just going one way or the other in my opinion.
I owned the Tech 6, and used it to operate Rapido Alco FA-2's and FPA-4's, both in the plain analog setting and in the DCC mode, and I actually kinda preferred running the Rapido engines in plain analog mode at the time (but don't remember exactly why, only they seemed better in plain dc). My Tech 6 was used for many years, and eventually the throttle would not stop completely at zero, so it has been replaced with the Tech 7, which is a regular DC only power supply.
Let me be clear: I had no issues operating dual mode decoder equipped engines, in either analog or dcc mode with my Tech 6. I also have no issues running BLI dual mode Paragon 2 or Paragon 3 engines with the Tech 7 (in plain analog mode).
However, my son has Genesis 2.0 diesels, and it is also clear that the very latest Rapido Alco RS-11 diesels are different, and likely electrically better than, the earlier FA's and FPA-4's, so I am about to convert over to all dcc. The local train store was literally sold out of dcc power supplies on Saturday--they have been selling more of them as of late. Perhaps this Saturday they will have replacements in stock.
Besides certain dinosaurs who build their own throttles and/or base their layout control systems around power supplies no longer commercially available (Aristocraft is out of business), it does appear that some of the last "dc only" stalwarts may finally be caving in (include me there, I guess).
Do I resent the extra $100 difference in list price of a diesel (from $200 to $300) for sound and dcc? You betcha!!! But what am I gonna do? All motive power on hand save old Bachmann Thomas the Tank Engine trains, a 45 year old Mantua Tyco trolley, and one lone MTH SD70ACe "dcc ready" (if you go through the pain to do it) is already equipped with dcc.
My 14 year old son wants his Genesis 2.0 fully featured SD90MAC-H's, and the Genesis 2.0 DDA40X Centennial we are about to pre-order, to be fully enjoyable.
I could install a DPDT toggle switch to go between dc and dcc, or I can trade in my nearly new Tech 7 on the dcc system (save a few dollars) and just give up plain dc entirely, which is the plan. The old engines will become just relics to store away. The kids don't use them anymore.
The lone Mantua trolley is the last relic of my childhood, and though it sounds pretty awful when it runs, still runs as well as it ever did...but we are beyond them at this late date. It is time, with Dad gone now almost 2 years, to finally relegate it to shelf queen only status.
John Mock
P.S. Not long ago the last engines left in stock at major dealers would be the fully featured sound/dcc/dual mode (more expensive ones). My friends at one large importer were selling 45% plain dc and 55% fully featured at the time.
It is interesting to note that at places like MBK it has now flip-flopped: the last diesels of some models in stock anymore are now the plain dc ones. That to me reflects that the general buying trend is now very clearly on the dcc side. If you can't beat 'em...
John,
I for one have never questioned that the market would continue to move toward DCC, and toward full featured "sound, fancy lights, etc" DCC.
Aristo may be out of business, but the latest version of their Train Engineer lives on, at least so far:
https://www.revoelectronics.com/
As does this product:
https://www.rcs-rc.com/
Not to mention a number of high quality wired DC throttles.
My point has always just been pick one and go with it.
For me, I don't need or want many more locos, I have 140 of them that run great. I don't get bored or chasnge my mind, or sell stuff off to buy new.
So I'm no longer a target audience for manufacturers anyway.
But the percentages you quoted prove what I have been saying for years about how many modelers have gone DCC and how many are still DC.
The growth of DCC will continue, but think about it, it has taked 25 pls years to get past 50%, just in HO and N scale.
Sheldon--
The percentages I quoted were a couple years ago now.
I'm betting we are approaching 75% fully featured with dcc and only 25% plain dc at the present time. I have not asked a manufacturer to confirm; that kind of thing would be a "trade secret" anyway.
At the time it was 55% fully featured, the plain dc new releases were selling out first. Now things have clearly flipped.
Some companies continue to offer plain dc as a special order; your local dealer has to order the item to come that way--and they still do--but even most of the latest releases on Ebay are plain dc now; the fully featured ones seem to be selling more than before, and the plain dc ones "lingering"...
So it's fair to assume the trend is continuing.
I'm not saying Aristocraft didn't have a good product; I'm sure it was good. The large scale crowd loved it. However, like PFM sound, things get "surpassed".
I know people who are still operating PFM sound systems. One is 80.
John
PRR8259 Sheldon-- The percentages I quoted were a couple years ago now. I'm betting we are approaching 75% fully featured with dcc and only 25% plain dc at the present time. I have not asked a manufacturer to confirm; that kind of thing would be a "trade secret" anyway. At the time it was 55% fully featured, the plain dc new releases were selling out first. Now things have clearly flipped. Some companies continue to offer plain dc as a special order; your local dealer has to order the item to come that way--and they still do--but even most of the latest releases on Ebay are plain dc now; the fully featured ones seem to be selling more than before, and the plain dc ones "lingering"... So it's fair to assume the trend is continuing. I'm not saying Aristocraft didn't have a good product; I'm sure it was good. The large scale crowd loved it. However, like PFM sound, things get "surpassed". I know people who are still operating PFM sound systems. One is 80. John
Completely agreed. And we see it right here on this forum. It has nothing to do with a persons age, but it does have to do with their number of years in the hobby, and their personal focus in the hobby.
By all accounts there are lots of people like me, Dr Wayne, Kevin and others who have been in the hobby a while (sometimes a long while), have very specific interests and already have most of what they need and want.
Even if a large percentage of these modelers are still DC, the new people in "buying mode" will skew the purchase numbers more toward DCC as most new people adopt DCC.
Again, I full well expect that.
And it's ok with me. The secondary market will be full of NOS product for decades just like it has always been in this hobby.
And, if I get a loco at the right price, I have no trouble removing decoders I do not want, weathering, kit bashing, etc, etc.
Remember, modelers like me, Dr Wayne, and Kevin have NO regard for resale value - I don't expect any of this stuff to have any value when I am done with it.
If I had to even think about what it would be worth if I sell it, I would get out of this hobby tomorrow. That would spoil all the fun.
Every informal poll we have taken on here still shows 40% or more still using DC.
No disrepect to you or anyone, there is no wrong way to do this hobby. For me however it is all about me. It is the one thing in my life that is all about me. I share it with my modeler friends who are interested, I share it with my grandchildren, but I do not alter my interests or goals to attract or please any of those people. And I surely pay no attention to conforming to what others in the hobby are doing......
I am not going to change my mind about sound. I am not going to change my layout theme or goals - I have not finished this set of goals. I don't have to "beat" or "join" anyone - I'm just doing my own thing.
One of my mottos - I was once well rounded until I learned what I really like.
It took me a long time to learn what I really like, and a couple manufacturers finally made some of the product.
I like big stuff, as does my son. The biggest, baddest engines, whether diesel or steam. We just like them (excepting the turbines and C855's and some other more experimental types).
A good DD35, we would have to buy, also.
My buddy is bringing over a PRR T-1 to break in soon...looking forward to it.
There's brass I would want, but realistically can't afford when some of the other stuff is so good now by comparison. If I can buy a brand new 2-8-8-4 for 1/4 or 1/5 of the brass price, painted, lights, etc. then I have to. It's really a no brainer on costs.
As much as I like brass, and I do, much of the used stuff available, while maybe nice, can need too much work as compared to new factory painted diecast/plastic/hybrid that is truly ready to go (and the brass usually isn't).
Also, by switching to dcc I am eliminating a lot of older brass from my future plans, as it needs work to convert over to dcc. I'll leave it for others to own. There are nice new engines available that are better buys.
I would like to see a new poll of how many use dcc or are planning to convert, soon.
PRR8259 I would like to see a new poll of how many use dcc or are planning to convert, soon.
I could be wrong, but I still think most of the growth in DCC is people who are fairly new to the hobby, or who are returning after a long break.
I do not think there has been some magic event that is not getting long time DC users to suddenly switch. Most of the long time modelers who are going to switch, did it a decade ago.
But, the percentage will shift fast as people reach that age were they leave us.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 I would like to see a new poll of how many use dcc or are planning to convert, soon. I could be wrong, but I still think most of the growth in DCC is people who are fairly new to the hobby, or who are returning after a long break. I do not think there has been some magic event that is not getting long time DC users to suddenly switch. Most of the long time modelers who are going to switch, did it a decade ago. But, the percentage will shift fast as people reach that age were they leave us..... Sheldon
But, I would tend to logically agree with you because long time DC users are probably older, have been in the hobby for a long time, and are unlikely to change now to DCC.
New members are most likely younger folks who will be drawn to DCC for its lack of wiring complexity and the sound option. Or, newer members are older folks who had Lionel or American Flyer in their youth and now want a layout, and they are more likely to choose DCC for its lack of wiring complexity and the sound option.
As you say, there is no magic event out there that will draw long time DC users to DCC, at least not at this point. If there was a magic event, it happened some years ago, not long after DCC was invented, and a switch from DC to DCC occurred during that time frame.
Just my thinking, but it seems logical to me.
Rich
Alton Junction
I’m older than dirt and I added DCC to my layout when I was 70. I say added because I operate dual mode, more DC than DCC. For me I only went with DCC for sound. I had wanted sound since I began true model railroading in 1951. Over the years I tried all kinds of things, some worked a bit but most didn’t.One thing I didn’t expect was the slick ability to control lighting using the DCC functions. I’m not a DCC lover but the function portion is very nice. My layout wasn’t designed for multiple train operation so DCC locomotive control doesn’t mean anything for me. I kinda like the ability to address multiple locomotives to the same address, kinda neat. I have always matched my locomotive very close for DC operations so that portion of DCC isn’t an advantage for me.For me it’s the Sound. (Steam Sound) Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
PRR8259I would like to see a new poll of how many use dcc or are planning to convert, soon.
I can only answer for myself, of course.
1) I have all the locomotives I need, all DC.
2) I do not like sound from my trains as I prefer music from my stereo in the train room.
3) I am very profficient and comfortable with all aspects of DC wiring including troubleshooting and theory.
I will not be switching to DCC, however, I believe DCC is the best choice for most current and nearly all newcomer model railroaders. It is just not right for me.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Sheldon and others--
Not sure I agree.
The elephant in the room is the simple fact that certain manufacturers (including but not limited to BLI) are only producing fully featured engines anyway. So if it's something they make and you need it, you are buying the features anyway...might as well use them.
I know, I know; some of you have all the Bachmann or old Proto engines you need for the rest of your life, so you really don't care...but others might care.
Also, various manufacturers have been adding all kinds of special lighting effects including individual red/green/clear class lights (Bowser), or changeable color class lights (Rapido and others). These cannot be enjoyed in plain dc mode.
Until recently I was buying plain dc only engines whenever I could; that is true, and they can be a good deal now, as sales do appear to be plummeting, and the price is dropping on them for new/mint on the secondary market. (Price of old Kato releases, once pretty high or at least holding up to old msrp from the day, appears to be dropping).
I was proudly in the "dc forever camp", but my son...has the fully featured engines anyway, and I realized that I only had one plain dc engine left on hand.
My local train store can't keep Kadee #58/158 scale head couplers in stock, and they now are also having difficulty keeping dcc systems in stock.
There is no one answer here because everyone has different interests and goals.
BLI has always been full feature focused, and only dabbled briefly with DC locos, while other brands sold thousands of DC locos for more than a decade.
BLI is pretty low on my interest radar anyway.
I have removed, by one means or another, the DCC and sound from five Broadway locos. Did not bother me one bit.
Four of them received Bachmann tenders so they would fit into the fleet better.
I model an era when turning on the headlight in the daytime was just becoming a standard thing. I'm not interested in lighting effects.
I don't/won't use #58 couplers either.........
Sorry for the late response everyone, I was involved with some other tasks and almost forgot to check this thread. Based on the input on here, along with my own research and the fact that I have 80 DC locomotives, also the fact that the BLI PRR T1 only comes with DCC and sound, I think that the Tech 6 would definitely be worth looking into. Thank you everyone for your help and input.