This is DC only system: I have restored my Dad's 1950ish Mantua 4-6-2 Pacific (kit), that included swapping the frame and motor with a mid-late 1970's Tyco 4-6-2, perfect fit. On the bench, I see the wheels turn consistently at measured 6 volts. On the my layout I'm not getting much movement under 10-11 volts and stalls regularly at 10 volts. If I crank it up to 15V it runs, but a see differences in different areas the the track. I set the transformer and measured the output at 7.5 Volts (+/- .1) and then went around the track with the voltmeter and confirmed steady power at that level all the way around.
Wheels have been cleaned. Track has graphite down (including places where I see a drop off). Cleaned brushed and commutator on engine, applied some Bachmann EZlube too. Lubricated the moving parts and gears. Again, on the bench seems to behave fine.
What's left to look at? Or is this just a case of old age and limitation of the equipment of that era? I was amazed that after all these years the original loco ran at all, was hoping that swapping in the newer pieces would be a boost.
Did you clean the wheels on the loco and the tender? Also, sometimes the tender bolsters and tender trucks need to be cleaned and polished, too.
Gary
When you get good operformance on the bench, is that with the loco on a test track standing up? Or on its back with the power being fed to its wheels or something similar?
If the latter is the case, then there may be something rubbing when the loco is upright on its wheels.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
cap3344If I crank it up to 15V it runs, but I see differences in different areas the the track.
It sounds to me to be more a track issue than a problem with the locomotive.
Do you have the track soldered together? Unsoldered rail joiners may work well-enough initially, but can become unreliable due to corrosion or expansion and contraction. Another option is to add feeder wires to each individual section of track, although I've found soldering the joiners both faster and easier.
Wayne
Still have the Mantua motor? If so..put it back in and see what happens.
If you don't have a bind problem you may have a weak magnet that just won't handle the additional friction imposed on the "system" when you put the loco "on the track". Take the superstructure off and turn the motor by hand while " on track"..check for binds. Is the magnet a cast magnet...look for grinding marks and a "sprue" ...sure marks for a cast Alnico magnet which is probably dead. Even if it's a "sintered" Alnico (no grinding marks, no sprue, uniform grey-black color, and uniform texture) it is surely degraded over time. Either get new SM magnets (<$5 plus shipping) or a new motor (possibly less than $5 plus shipping). But don't do anything until you convince yourself you have no binding.
Best of Luck.
I second Mike Lehman's answer. When on the test bench, is it also on a piece of track? If so, then your layout power pack/track is the issue.
Charles
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Sometimes the U shaped brass bearings for the drivers don't "set" quite right in the slots in the frame. that can account for running better upside down on the workbench than on the wheels on the layout for example. If you put your hand on the boiler and press down a little, does it run better then?
Dave Nelson
One way to determine if the magnets are weak is to measure the current draw. Of course you would need some clue as to what the original current draw was when new, unless it's way out there- if it's drawing 2-3 amps, there's definitely a problem, they weren't like modern low current motors, but they weren't crazy. I'd say anything over 1 amp is probably an issue.
It could be mechanism bind too, that causes an increased current draw. But if the wheels are spinning freely and it still has elevated current draw, the motor may be somewhatr demagnetized.
Make sure the tender wire is firmly connected - on an older loco like that, it will pick up from one side of the tender and one side of the loco, so if the connection between the tender and loco is compromised, it won't get good power pickup.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Did do all wheels, actually swapped trucks from the plastic tender to the metal (original one)
On the bench, it is with wheels up. I have run it w/o the metal boiler section, wasn't much different. Also thought the loss of that weight was causing some contact issues. Maybe the tender is causing the binding?
the track is made up of sections of track where 2 - 3 pieces are soldered and then joined (except obviously for some 36" flex track sections). Though I didn't inspect each piece of track indivdiually, where I did measure voltage, it was consistent. I was hoping it was track related, but other (Diesel) trains don't have the same issue. I've got two parallel mains and I'm running on the inside. Next test will be to run it on the outer main, and also bring up a newer steam loco of similar size and see if there is the same type of problem. Thanks.
Thanks, gives me a few things more things to look at.
On the bench its on it back, I have a short 8' test track, I don't recall seeing the issue there, but its so short a track, it may not show itself there. I have a second powerpack at the layout, make sense for me to see if it behaves the same way, then at least can rule it out (or throw one out)!
Thanks to all, got some things to look at... including doing some testing to eliminate track and powerpack as issues... then can drill down to Loco & Tender. Appreciate the help (even stuff that is zipping over my head... but I'll step up that.
cap3344Track has graphite down
Graphite is significantly less conductive than the brass or nickel silver track itself.
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cap3344 On the bench its on it back, I have a short 8' test track, I don't recall seeing the issue there, but its so short a track, it may not show itself there. I have a second powerpack at the layout, make sense for me to see if it behaves the same way, then at least can rule it out (or throw one out)!
Don't run it on its back. Try it on the test track in ready-to-roll condition, and see how it does. If it stalls, you can clip one power lead to the boiler and the other to the motor lead that goes to the tender. If it runs fine, it could be a pickup problem.
I suppose you could swap power supplies, though if other locos run ok that may not be it.
On the layout, are the problem areas around curves?
It almost sounds like you have an electrical contact/pickup problem, most likely on the tender. (I've had similar issues in the past) I'd try it on the layout track without the tender, but with a jumper wire attached to the motor wire instead. I believe the engine's insulated wheels are on its left side, so the jumper wire should attach to the rail on the engine's left side. If this is indeed the problem, then you should make sure the wheels and all electrical contacts are clean and secure.
you got it!! I wish I read this before I started this 3 hours ago! When I started restoring the Metal tender, I noticed that one set of pickup wheels on each truck were out of spec (wobbling). I checked the plastic tender that came with the new unit, they were fine, so I swapped them... simple enough. Well they didn't sit properly on the metal tender, so this apparently led to the problem. After a few tests swapping tenders and loco's there was consistency. Whichever Loco ran the meta tender had problems. And the older chassis also had problems (drive wheels are not handling the curve sections).
Not sure if I can remove the wheels from the trucks w/o damaging the unit. Is there a tool that can put wheels back into spec without removing?
I do have to explore the trick with the tender wire - I was thinking about that.. will put that on my todo list.
And I do have the option of using the plastic tender... but really want to keep Dad's legacy by using as much of his stuff as possible.
Thanks to everyone!! The Community is a great help.. after 2+ years of this, I still consider myself a newbie.
cap3344 Not sure if I can remove the wheels from the trucks w/o damaging the unit. Is there a tool that can put wheels back into spec without removing?
Are these 6 wheel trucks? I believe there are two very small screws that hold the trucks together.
Is this what the tender looks like? https://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua212pacific462assembly1952pg5.jpg If so, there should be a retainer plate with two screws holding the axels in place.
that's it... I see the two small screws on one truck, the other one I cannot see the screw heads. Meanwhile I've done the switch again between the two tenders, using longer 2-56 screws and that appears to have better positioned the trucks. Oddly, only one of the trucks fits on the plastic tender, the other one won't sit on the post mount (diameter too narrow)... not an issue as right now that's in the parts bin. I have that loco pulling 8 freight cars now without an issue. Thanks
cap3344 I have that loco pulling 8 freight cars now without an issue. Thanks
I have that loco pulling 8 freight cars now without an issue. Thanks
Glad to hear you got it running.