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Repowering old brass

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Repowering old brass
Posted by 5150WS6 on Monday, December 23, 2019 4:46 PM

Hi guys,

Looking to repower a beautiful old Westside Brass SP Daylight. I really like the price and performance of the Kato motors but can't find any specs on the HM-5 motors.

Can anyone recommend anything else?  I've looked at Mashima but at $85 a motor, I think I can do better for power with a stock set up out of another mass produced loco like the Kato.

Thanks,

Mike

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, December 23, 2019 5:12 PM

Look into the Mabuchi SF266SA motors.  They are very powerful with a 2mm diameter shaft.  They do not have a skewed armature but they have 6 poles.  The price it right too, under $3 on eBay.
 
 
I have installed 12 so far and got ten more last week.  They are small enough to fit back to back in an Athearn SD40 frame.
 
They work great in Rivarossi articulated.  Below is a Cab Forward and a kitbashed Cab Forward into an AC-9.  Both run great.
 
 
They have tremendous power at very low current.
 
Here is a pair in an Athearn SD40-2 frame.
 
 
I compared them to the Canon EN22 and they are at least as good if not better.  Their low speed torque is great as well as smooth from 0 to max 6000 RPM.

 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by 5150WS6 on Monday, December 23, 2019 5:17 PM

Thanks Mel,

Good call on those motors. I remember we used those for things in r/c stuff so I don't know why I didn't think of that for repowering. 

I'd like to stick with something with dual shafts for flywheel options but I'll check those out!  Thanks!!!!!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, December 23, 2019 5:26 PM

Running them back to back I can’t tell the difference in the Athearn frames.  As my Cab Forwards didn’t have flywheels the dual motor easily makes up for a flywheel.
 
I haven’t installed a SF-266 in a regular steam locomotive but they don’t need flywheels in any of my installs so far.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 1:21 AM

Thanks for that suggestion, Mel.  I found them at a really good price, but there's a click-on which asks if I want the motors with pins or no pins.  To what are they referring?

EDIT:  Never mind, the info was there once I took a closer look. Dunce

Wayne

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 8:45 AM

Wayne
 
The pins are needed if you keep the plastic endbell.  The plastic endbell can be removed to shorten the overall length of the motor housing.  I haven’t removed the plastic endbell in any of my installs.
 
The pins are shown in the first picture in my first post on this topic.  The pins press into slots on the side of the plastic endbell. 
 
The motors I’ve ordered haven’t listed the pins as an option.  The link below has good pictures of the motor, scroll through the pictures.
 
 
 
EDIT:
 
I would like to add that the Mabuchi SF-266SA motor is “my best find” in the last decade.  The motor is fantastic, equal to if not better than the Canon EN-22.
 
I now have 7 locomotives using the SF-266 motor, all 7 have dual motors and my four super heavy (34oz /11oz drawbar at wheel slip/630ma) E7s will pull the paint off the walls.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 11:14 AM

Thanks, Mel.  I've been following your comments on those motors, and was very surprised by the prices that were on the first Ebay seller's site that popped up when I googled the model number of the motor. 
The seller had included several photos of the motor, but it took me a while before I was aware that there were more photos than the one which was shown - I'm a very infrequent browser on Ebay.

Wayne

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Posted by Attuvian on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 4:45 PM

Mel,

Would the Mabuchi be a reasonable replacement for an old Pitman in a '70s issue MDC 2-6-2? Also, can you imagine the compatibility with a good back-EMF decoder should this little beast ever be rigged for DCC?

John

Merry Christmas, all!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 5:52 PM

John
 
I would think so as far as the motor dimensions go, the Pitman is 16.15mm wide and the Mabuchi is 18.3mm.  The problem will be the shaft size.  The Pitman has a 2.25mm shaft and the SF-266 has a 2mm shaft so the original worm won’t just press off and fit the shaft of the Mabuchi, that would be kinda tough to sleeve. 
 
The MDC worm gear is fine tooth 7.88mm diameter with a 1.2mm pitch.  Trying to match shaft size in gearing isn’t my thing.
 
I’m quite sure the Mabuchi motor will fit in the boiler (my MDC 2-8-0 has a 20mm opening) and could be glued to the frame using a silicone glue, I use Amazing Goop to glue my motors in place.
 
As for BEMF the Mabuchi SF-266 has capacitors internally that may have to be removed.  My layout is not operable so I can’t check the BEMF for sure but it seems to work OK with the caps on my short test track.  The picture below shows the SMD internal caps on the circuit board.
 
 
I haven’t opened a SF-266 to see how hard it is to remove the caps.
 
All 14 of the SF-266 motors in my locomotives are wired for DCC operation and I have test run all 7 locomotives, one Athearn SD9 frame, four Athearn SD40-2 frames and two Rivarossi articulateds all with dual SF-266 motors.  Not a single problem so far.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Attuvian on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 11:59 PM

Thanks, Mel.

Sooner or later I'll find reason to end up re-gearing the old Prairie so the shaft size may be a moot point.  And, who knows?  For the short term, someone may jump in here with news of an available bushing to accommodate the .25mm differential.

As for the internal caps and their compatibility with BEMF decoders, that kind of stuff still causes my head to swim.

You da man, Mel.

John

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, December 25, 2019 1:29 AM

RR_Mel
...The MDC worm gear is fine tooth 7.88mm diameter with a 1.2mm pitch. Trying to match shaft size in gearing isn’t my thing....

NWSL has u-joints to fit various shaft sizes and also gears and gearboxes for the MDC locos,, so if you're going to upgrade the motor, it's probably worthwhile to do the drive train, too.  I've done so on Bowser and Mantua steam locomotives, and will be doing a John English Pacific, too.

I've also used NWSL bushings for mating various shaft sizes, but they've been discontinued in favour of the U-joint sets.  The only bushings I have left are the ones with a 1.5mm bore and an O.D. of 3/32", unfortunately not suitable for John's locomotive.

Wayne

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, December 25, 2019 8:14 AM

John
 
As Wayne suggests NWSL will have the proper worm for MDC locomotives with a 2mm bore.  Their web site isn’t fully up as of yet so maybe a call would get the correct worm to fit the Mabuchi 2mm shaft.
 
 
 
 
NWSL is in business, I ordered five 2mm universal kits two weeks ago and received them in five days.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Attuvian on Wednesday, December 25, 2019 8:52 AM

Thanks, guys. The sighs of relief continue in NWSL's being re-born. Thousands giving thanks that they seem to have retained their corporate vision and mission.  IMO, not common these days.

John

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Posted by mikeGTW on Thursday, January 9, 2020 12:39 PM

Mel  question for you the Mabuchi motor lists 7200 rpm at 12 volts   you say about 6000 rpm   the athearn motors I think ran in the 10 to 12000 rpm   

so does the new install run slower now  will it match up with an original athearn

thanks

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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, January 9, 2020 12:52 PM

mikeGTW

Mel  question for you the Mabuchi motor lists 7200 rpm at 12 volts   you say about 6000 rpm   the athearn motors I think ran in the 10 to 12000 rpm   

so does the new install run slower now  will it match up with an original athearn

thanks

 

All of the Athearn motors I’ve checked are well under 7000 no load.  I haven’t checked any of their newer models but I didn’t think they changed their gear ratios.
 
I just checked a new out of the sack Mabuchi at 6600 RPM at 12.0 volts no load.
 
EDIT:
 
I just checked an Athearn SD40-2 Blue Box motor and you are correct, I turns at just over 9000 RPM.  I have remotored a total of 8 Athearn Blue Box SDs and when running them on my layout I haven't experienced a problem at the slower RPM, I never run them over a scale 60 MPH.
 
I just finished a pair of SD40-2 frames with Cary cast metal bodies and weighing in at 35oz each they easily do over 60MPH scale.  I would expect it would be a problem in a consist with the two different motors but I don't run any Athearn with the original motor.  The Canon EN22 is also in the 6000RPM range and they do well with the Mabuchi motors.
 
Thanks for bringing up the different speed!
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by mikeGTW on Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:35 PM

Thanks for that info Mel   I think I will get some of those and give it a try 

I wonder if I can squeeze two of those into a gp frame  looks to be real close

other wise  the Kato HM-5  will work  just more $$$

but I do have about a doz of the sd type

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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, January 9, 2020 2:11 PM

I have several GPs but haven’t done one yet.  I think they will fit.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, January 9, 2020 4:25 PM

My layout is still under a major wiring overhaul but I was able to get power to my mainline to check the speed of the Athearn SD9 that I’m in the process of finishing the remotor using a pair of Mabuchi SF266 motors.  I have an electronic stop watch over a measured HO scale mile.  The SD9 clocked in at 58.86 seconds or 61MPH at 12.0 volts DC.
 
Measuring the locomotive speed is much easier when my layout is up and running but due to my Arthritis it’s still unfinished.  Our doctor has me on a new med and it seems to be better so maybe I can get back to it.
 
My layout is a HO scale twice-around with 121’ of track or two scale miles.  I have two sets of sensors, one at 60.5’ and the second at 121’.
 
A stock Athearn SD40-2 frame does the mile in 41 seconds or 87.6MPH
 
For anyone wondering the 2 mile loop was an accident, not planned.  It wasn’t until I started playing around with Arduinos that I measured the length of my mainline track.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
 
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Posted by mikeGTW on Friday, January 24, 2020 1:04 PM

Mel on the sd40-2 frame what exactly did you use to connect the Mabuchi motor to the athean truck   Is it a nwsl part  and if so which one

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, January 24, 2020 2:23 PM

Mike
 
Yes I used NWSL universals.
 
 
I ordered two of the MABUCHI FK-280SA-14200 motors to see if they will work better than the 266, their listing says they are 12300RPM.  They have dual 2mm shafts.
 
In experimenting I found that I can sleeve the Athearn flywheels using K&S 3mm brass tubing to fit the 2mm shaft.  It’s kinda touchy but by inserting a short 2mm rod into the pulley end then using super gel to glue the 3mm tube it is centered close enough that it doesn’t vibrate.
 
The FK-280 motors arrived at US Customs 1/22.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
 
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Posted by mikeGTW on Friday, January 24, 2020 3:10 PM

So the NWSL universals  is it two different sizes you used  can you list which ones 

and it doesn't say if they come with the shaft part  or is that seperate

the K&S the .45 wall or the .225 wall

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, January 24, 2020 4:06 PM

The universals I use on pretty much every thing are Northwest Short Line  2mm shaft Universal Joint  489-6, they are 2mm.  I drill them out to fit the Athearn worms.
 
I use 2mm steel rod for my drivelines.  I bought a package of 10 36” long rods about 15 years ago and I have no idea where I bought it.  It goes a long way, I still have 8 full length rods and a 13” shorty after fifty or so remotor jobs.
 
The K&S tubing is #9821.  If you shim the flywheels for 2mm you will need to use the Athearn driveline, the Athearn universal is built into the flywheel.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by mikeGTW on Sunday, January 26, 2020 3:31 PM

Mel  thanks for that info   question does the K&S 9821 tubing fit tight on the motor shaft  I'm having trouble finding anyone that carries it in the metric sizes  but there is some on amaz  by ukell  that is 3mm with a 1mm wall so the inside would be 2mm 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, January 26, 2020 4:16 PM

mikeGTW
...3mm with a 1mm wall so the inside would be 2mm

Keep in mind that the 1mm wall thickness is for the entire circumference of the tubing.

Wayne

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Posted by RR_Mel on Sunday, January 26, 2020 4:34 PM

That is the number on my package (9821) but it only says 3mm but the Athearn shaft measures 3.1mm so it’s a bit loose in the flywheel.  The Athearn flywheel has a plastic universal installed in the other end and it has a 2mm hole in it.  I use a 1” long 2mm rod in the plastic universal then coat the 3mm x .36” long sleeve with Super Glue Gel and slip it into the flywheel.  Four out of four came out perfect.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I did a fifth flywheel for the pictures above, that's five out of five that turned out prefect.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
 

 

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Posted by mikeGTW on Monday, January 27, 2020 12:25 PM

doctorwayne
Keep in mind that the 1mm wall thickness is for the entire circumference of the tubing.

I thought about that right about the same time you posted it  my bad 

the K&S 9821 3mm has a .45mm  wall thickness so it will work

Thanks Mike

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Posted by mikeGTW on Monday, January 27, 2020 12:29 PM

Mel   I see what you are doing but what is the purpose of the short piece that you glue into the flywheel

I thought just super glue the 9821 3mm onto the new motor shaft 2mm then it would press fit into the athearn nuckle part  (not using the flywheel)

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, January 27, 2020 12:54 PM

mikeGTW

Mel   I see what you are doing but what is the purpose of the short piece that you glue into the flywheel

I thought just super glue the 9821 3mm onto the new motor shaft 2mm then it would press fit into the athearn nuckle part  (not using the flywheel)

 

The flywheel has a 3.1mm bore and the K&S tube is 3mm, a loose fit.  To glue it into the flywheel if the tube or sleeve is even a tiny bit off center at 12000RPM it’s bad news.
 
The 2mm rod keeps the sleeve centered while the Super Glue Gel sets up using the Gel to make up the .1mm difference.
 
I’ve sleeved six of the Athearn flywheels and all six came out prefect using the 2mm rod for centering.
 
I tried to remove the Athearn universal from a flywheel and by the time I got it out it was worthless.  You could use NWSL universals and make a 2mm shaft motor work but the dual shaft FK-280 motor looks promising.  Because it will fit in the Athearn frames with the Athearn flywheels I’m headed in that direction.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by mikeGTW on Monday, January 27, 2020 1:34 PM

Now I get it   I thought you were leaving that short piece in the flywheel    

Good idea to center it  that way  I finally found a source for that K&S stuff so it's on order   and I have a bunch of the athearn nuckle parts from old athearn engines that didn't have flywheels   I know old stuff but still works

And  i want to see how that FK-280 motor works out it does look promising 

those SF-266 motors can't fit two in a gp frame   

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, January 27, 2020 2:15 PM

mikeGTW

Now I get it   I thought you were leaving that short piece in the flywheel    

Good idea to center it  that way  I finally found a source for that K&S stuff so it's on order   and I have a bunch of the athearn nuckle parts from old athearn engines that didn't have flywheels   I know old stuff but still works

And  i want to see how that FK-280 motor works out it does look promising 

those SF-266 motors can't fit two in a gp frame   

 

Without the flywheels a pair of 266 motors will fit in a GP, the 280 will fit with both flywheels.
 
 
The 280 is smaller than the Athearn motor.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 

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