To All,
I usually refrain from this type of post, but I felt this was too critical to ignore.
I preordered two of the latest RF-16s in D&H (they only had two of them, 1205, and 1216). At first they seemed to run okay, then I noticed 1205 started to jerk at startup. Well, in some cases a break-in period is needed; after test running it for about 20 minutes, the unit created a short circuit. I reported this to the vendor and exchanged it for another 1205. Well this one ran okay, but was slower than 1216; I ran it a bit, then speed matched the pair and ran them in consist pulling a 20 car train. About 15 minutes in the replacement 1205 shorted out! Okay something is afoot here (background on me, have over 100 DCC locos, I'm an electronics professional and DCC installer since 2000). So I decided to check the motor and found the motor to draw over 250mA at low voltage, and over 1.5 AMP at max (I found another thread that discovered this). After test running the motor forward and reverse, and a couple of drops of lube on the bearings, it was better but not great. I contacted BLI this time and had them replace the DCC decoder.
Well, I received the decoder and discovered it was the one for the PRR loco (different horns); not a REAL big deal, but since it arrived, I placed the decoder in the loco and set it up, etc. Upon trying the unit; i found the truck side frames were scraping the wheels (built-in brakes?) and was causing some of the slight jerking (this was happening with both units). As I continued to test both units, 1216 started to slow down and act like the first 1205! I disconnected the motor and tested it only to find it started drawing excessive current. BTW, a good version of this motor draws only 8 mA at 10V, no load.
While testing 1205 another decoder fried running at slow speed
Needless to say these are the worst experiences I've had with any DCC loco! How many others are bad out there? What's scary is a number of these showed up on the refurbished BLI webpage the same week they were released????
Anyone else having a similar issue? I remember seeing a thread on issues similiar to these with Paragon 3 BLI units.
It's a disappointment, as I have several BLI GG1's, a SAL Centipede, two SW7 switchers and a (gasp!) recently released P5a electric, all fine running models.
I'm sharing this to caution everyone about these recent releases. We have multiple folks that are members of my model rr club and they have similar stories, both in HO and N scale. If we all speak up, they should listen and do what they can to make things better.
In the meantime, I've decided to remotor and replace the decoders with my favorite sound units as they are great looking units (nicest I've seen in plastic) and with a few sideframe tweaks they should (fingers crossed) be fine models.
Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!
Sadly, it's just another chapter in the "I though YOU were doing QA on the drivetrain!" book of Bad Train Models in HO History.
The vaunted Rapido is going through this with the Canadian rails RS-18 just released. It's a bit of a headache, to say the least, and not just for Rapido.
MTH had the same problems with their Big Boy steamers launched maybe seven years ago or so. I read all sorts of laments across several hobby forums.
I think BLI's last problem-child might have been their NYC 4-8-2, but it wasn't quite so bad. Meanwhile, their refurbished page has held listings for a couple or three dozen 2-8-2 steamers for months now. Must be something going on there.
Thanks for warning us off of these. And, sorry you had to endure what you have.
cmarchan Needless to say these are the worst experiences I've had with any DCC loco! How many others are bad out there? What's scary is a number of these showed up on the refurbished BLI webpage the same week they were released???? Anyone else having a similar issue? I remember seeing a thread on issues similiar to these with Paragon 3 BLI units.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain paragon 3 is terrible , have 5 bli big boys & the only electronic nightmare is the paragon 3 big boy i have replaced the blower fan the motherboard & now it appears i may have to replace the lightboard cmarchan Needless to say these are the worst experiences I've had with any DCC loco! How many others are bad out there? What's scary is a number of these showed up on the refurbished BLI webpage the same week they were released???? Anyone else having a similar issue? I remember seeing a thread on issues similiar to these with Paragon 3 BLI units. Apparently, BLI makes the D&H RF-16 #1205 and #1216 in both the Paragon 2 series and the Paragon 3 series. Which do you have? Rich
paragon 3 is terrible , have 5 bli big boys & the only electronic nightmare
is the paragon 3 big boy i have replaced the blower fan the motherboard & now it appears i may have to replace the lightboard
Apparently, BLI makes the D&H RF-16 #1205 and #1216 in both the Paragon 2 series and the Paragon 3 series. Which do you have?
thomas81z richhotrain paragon 3 is terrible , have 5 bli big boys & the only electronic nightmare is the paragon 3 big boy i have replaced the blower fan the motherboard & now it appears i may have to replace the lightboard cmarchan Needless to say these are the worst experiences I've had with any DCC loco! How many others are bad out there? What's scary is a number of these showed up on the refurbished BLI webpage the same week they were released???? Anyone else having a similar issue? I remember seeing a thread on issues similiar to these with Paragon 3 BLI units. Apparently, BLI makes the D&H RF-16 #1205 and #1216 in both the Paragon 2 series and the Paragon 3 series. Which do you have? Rich
I have been considering the purchase of a pair of Paragon 3 E6 units, but the more that I read and hear about the Paragon 3 line, the more reluctant I become to purchase them.
I have several Paragon diesels and steamers, and I have never had a problem with any of them. I have two Paragon 2 steamers, and I have never had a problem with any of them.
I have no Paragon 3 locos, and I am not sure that I want to buy any. Are all Paragon 3 locos problematic?
richhotrainI have no Paragon 3 locos, and I am not sure that I want to buy any
Except for some problems with a recent Rapido steamer, there are never problems with Rapido, Atlas, Kato or Intermountain. BLI seems to have the most unhappy campers followed by Walthers.
Nothing scientific, just my personal observation.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Only real difference from Paragon 2 to Paragon 3 is the inclusion of the radio transmitter in Paragon 3 to work with the Rolling Thunder subwoofer.
Unless they also cheaped out somewhere in the design.
They don't make anything I want or could use, so no skin in this game. The ones I wanted and can use came under the Precision Craft name and they've been quite reliable after minor tuning when new.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I skipped the problem altogether. I bought two complete D&H Shark shells (1205 and 1216) from them and mounted them on a custom chassis with Atlas drives and Loksound decoders. The shells are beautiful.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark R. I skipped the problem altogether. I bought two complete D&H Shark shells (1205 and 1216) from them and mounted them on a custom chassis with Atlas drives and Loksound decoders. The shells are beautiful.
These reported issues with the BLI RF14 are somewhat disconcerting. I am DC only and could not find a BLI RF14 that was DC only. Modeling the New York Central I had always wanted a model of the RF14 in Lightning Stripe livery. I had an old, I believe, Model Power RF14 A unit but it just didn't cut it. Not in detail and not in applied paint. The BLI model looked superb, plus it was an A and B unit combination. I bit the bullet and purchased the locomotive. It would be my first dual mode decoder with sound. Yes, I knew all of the limitations when running these decoders on DC. The locomotive operated as expected right out of the box. I ran it with a string of hoppers for at least 30 minutes. Then, quite unexpectedly, the unit stopped. There was a pause of several seconds and then the startup engine sounds kicked in and the locomotive resumed the speed it was running before it stopped. Over the next 15 minutes or so, this occured at least 2 more times. Not knowing what to do I cleaned my track, although I thought it was fairly clean. I had heard about DCC issues with dirty track. I then ran the locomotive for about 30 minutes more without issue and several times since, all without issue. I chalked it up to dirty track reseting the dual mode decoder. But now I wonder. Will my RF14 suddenly stop again? Will it become a "shelf queen". For now, no more dual mode decoders. I will remain happy with my DC cab control and silent locos. Your results may vary.
Easy enough fix, remove the decoder and wire the track pickups to the motor wires. Instant DC silent loco.
The symptoms are one of the decoder overheating and shuttong off to save itself, though why this should happen in a system that was designed together is beyond me. It's one thing using an aftermarket decoder and it not being matched to the loco, or just prone to overheating like the micro-Tsunami decoders. This was designed and completely engineered by BLI, there's no excuse for their decoder to not handle the load, or not be cooled enough.
It does seem like their quality is going downhill. Not a good sign. Sure, they will take it back and repair or repalce it, but there's no guarantee it wont happen again, and if they are spending all their time trying to fix broken product, that's going to really hurt their profits. Anyone can have a dud here and there, but it seems this is not just confined to the Sharks.
BigDaddy richhotrain I have no Paragon 3 locos, and I am not sure that I want to buy any Except for some problems with a recent Rapido steamer, there are never problems with Rapido, Atlas, Kato or Intermountain. BLI seems to have the most unhappy campers followed by Walthers. Nothing scientific, just my personal observation.
richhotrain I have no Paragon 3 locos, and I am not sure that I want to buy any
You did not even mention the two brands that make up most of my locomotive fleet.
I have about 60 pre Walthers Proto2000 diesel locos, all running nicely after gear replacements.
And about 35 Bachmann Spectrum steamers, all carefully tuned up to standards I published on this forum many years ago, and all running nicely.
I have lots of Intermountain F units, Genesis F units.
No Atlas or Kato, they make so little in my 1954 era.
And no Rapido yet, but it looks like a set of ALCO PA's are in my future.
Broadway, no diesels, 7 of their steamers, some had troubles, a way worse precentage than my 35 Bachmann steamers........
I don't really see any more Broadway locos in my future......
All DC with no sound here, all decoders removed, they don't playwell with my Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttles.
Sheldon
rrinker This was designed and completely engineered by BLI, there's no excuse for their decoder to not handle the load, or not be cooled enough. It does seem like their quality is going downhill. Not a good sign.
This was designed and completely engineered by BLI, there's no excuse for their decoder to not handle the load, or not be cooled enough.
It does seem like their quality is going downhill. Not a good sign.
richhotrain rrinker This was designed and completely engineered by BLI, there's no excuse for their decoder to not handle the load, or not be cooled enough. It does seem like their quality is going downhill. Not a good sign. Randy, do you feel that the Paragon 3 is a bad design in all respects including the shell and the chassis? Or, is it specifically the Paragon 3 decoder that is faulty? Rich
Randy, do you feel that the Paragon 3 is a bad design in all respects including the shell and the chassis? Or, is it specifically the Paragon 3 decoder that is faulty?
I doubt they would have changed the mechanicals unless a change in factories required some retooling. So it is likely it is simply an electrical issue.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I doubt they would have changed the mechanical unless a change in factories required some retooling. So it is likely it is simply an electrical issue. Sheldon
I doubt they would have changed the mechanical unless a change in factories required some retooling. So it is likely it is simply an electrical issue.
While I don't know this as a fact, I have to believe that the design of Paragon 3 has not really changed much, if at all, from the original Paragon. It seems that the most significant change is the decoder. All of my Paragon diesels and steamers had factory installed QSI decoders.
Yes, I would think just a decoder issue.
I had smoke come out of the HO BLI #5752, Paragon 3, DCC, PRR RF-16 #2011A, (date stamped on the inside of the box lid - 13 AUG 2019) unit's shell, right side front at the side grill. No forward movement now, all within one hour of running time. I am so ...well you know what.
I posted this on Oct. 28, 2019 in the ''Anything driving you nuts'' thread.
I was just waiting for someone else to start a ''Disgusted with BLI's Paragon 3 Sharks'' thread or something of the nature. It may tell you something when...
1-Now when you register the product with BLI that you now do not get a TWO YEAR warranty, only a one year warranty.
2-Seeing a ''NEW'' notice on the bottom of the LHS recipt "LHS name here, is not liable for new product purchases with an issue out of the box. Any product issues should go though manufacturer's customer service and warranty''.
3-At a train show I over heard vendors telling customers "if you have any troubles send it back to the manufacturers'', and guess what brand loco's the customer has in their hand.
And I bought one. Will I buy another one? Will I even look at a B unit? Probably will.
I have to cover the cost to ship back to BLI. BLI will cover the repair and send it back to me. I feel that BLI should cover shipping cost both ways for the first year.
The LHS washing their hands of ANY replacement is not all that new these days. And doesn't apply to just BLI.
I doubt BLI has changed anything witht he chassis or other tooling. They don't say much about retooled shells with added details or anything, which wouldn't have any effect on running qulaity anyway. What's really changed are the electronics. No idea who they had do their design, they aren't really an electronics company. Their original locos used third party supplied electronics, QSI in the Paragon and ESU in the PCM. I'm guessing they farmed the decoder design out, rather than hire some engineer in-house to design the circuit and lay out the circuit boards.
At one point, I had a lot of original Paragon with QSI locos running - my ex father in law is a huge Pennsy fan and he had a bunch of the steam locos plus the GG1. Never had any problems with them. The only complaint typically seen online in those days applied to all the manufacturers that used QSI - Atlas and P2K as well as BLI - generally programming issues. I never had a problem programming mine without any special add on program track boosters and whatnot, but others did.
Number of people complainign about BLI issues has certainly gone up since they introduced their own decoder with the Paragon II line (and the Blue Line sound which was also their own design), and more so it seems with Paragon III. Can't read too much into that, they could be selling 10x as many locos now, so even if the percentage of duds remained the same, the number would be 10x higher.
rrinker The LHS washing their hands of ANY replacement is not all that new these days. And doesn't apply to just BLI. hey don't say much about re I doubt BLI has changed anything witht he chassis or other tooling. Ttooled shells with added details or anything, which wouldn't have any effect on running qulaity anyway. What's really changed are the electronics. No idea who they had do their design, they aren't really an electronics company. Their original locos used third party supplied electronics, QSI in the Paragon and ESU in the PCM. I'm guessing they farmed the decoder design out, rather than hire some engineer in-house to design the circuit and lay out the circuit boards. At one point, I had a lot of original Paragon with QSI locos running - my ex father in law is a huge Pennsy fan and he had a bunch of the steam locos plus the GG1. Never had any problems with them. The only complaint typically seen online in those days applied to all the manufacturers that used QSI - Atlas and P2K as well as BLI - generally programming issues. I never had a problem programming mine without any special add on program track boosters and whatnot, but others did. Number of people complainign about BLI issues has certainly gone up since they introduced their own decoder with the Paragon II line (and the Blue Line sound which was also their own design), and more so it seems with Paragon III. Can't read too much into that, they could be selling 10x as many locos now, so even if the percentage of duds remained the same, the number would be 10x higher. --Randy
hey don't say much about re I doubt BLI has changed anything witht he chassis or other tooling. Ttooled shells with added details or anything, which wouldn't have any effect on running qulaity anyway. What's really changed are the electronics. No idea who they had do their design, they aren't really an electronics company. Their original locos used third party supplied electronics, QSI in the Paragon and ESU in the PCM. I'm guessing they farmed the decoder design out, rather than hire some engineer in-house to design the circuit and lay out the circuit boards.
Like you, I too doubt that BLI has changed anything with the chassis or other tooling. Just the decoder in the Paragon 3 has been changed to a proprietary BLI design. I just wish that BLI would come out with a Paragon 4 and that they would use a third party design like all of the other locomotive manufacturers.
nycmodel These reported issues with the BLI RF14 are somewhat disconcerting. I am DC only and could not find a BLI RF14 that was DC only.
These reported issues with the BLI RF14 are somewhat disconcerting. I am DC only and could not find a BLI RF14 that was DC only.
That's one of many reasons why when something I want only comes with DCC I un-DCC it whenever possible. There, that's my worth.