I am using NCE DCC on my layout. I have installed Shinohara (black box) turnouts. They have a brass bar at the start of the point rails, but the closure rails are held by what looks like rail joiners. i also have Tam Valley Frog Juicers installed at each one. Im assuming they are not DCC friendly, because I keep getting short circuits.
My question is:
1. What modifications do I need to do to make them DCC friendly.
Also, with Tam Valley Frog Juicers, I'm assuming that agreen LED means the conenction is good, and a red means I have a short?
Update: Tested the layout now with the Frog Juicers disconnected, and no modifications to the turnouts. The layout runs on DC power and with DCC. there are a couple of hiccups when running slow, but it works. Thank you all for the replies!
Tony Koester had a great article in Model Railroader a few years back about how he modified Shinohara Code 70 #8 turnout for his NICKEL PLATE layout to work better with DCC.
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It seemed like a lot of work to me. Maybe that helped with my decision to stick with good old DC.
It went into much better detail than we can cover in here.
Maybe someone here knows what issue it was in.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
When in doubt, read the friendly manual:
If the LEDs both go off for a second and then come back on thisindicates that the booster detected the short before the MFJ. If thishappens repeatedly then something is wrong and it must be fixed oryou risk destroying the MFJ.!
I can think of several reasons for Shinohara turnouts to cause a short in DCC. You need insulated joiners on the frog rails, for one. They are power routing. Think of that as a manual frog juicer. To that, you have added a real frog juicer.
Question for the gurus:
When the OP throws the points is that electronically the same as the juicer deciding it needs to reverse polarity or is it seen as a short by the FJ or the Power Cab?
This page has diagrams of Shinohara or "Old Walthers" turnouts and some suggestions for making them DCC friendly
Wiring for DCC
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddyWhen the OP throws the points is that electronically the same as the juicer deciding it needs to reverse polarity or is it seen as a short by the FJ or the Power Cab?
Yes, the Frog Juicer would see that as the same thing as a wheel bridging the gap in an insulated frog.
Code 100, code 70 and early Walthers branded early code 83 Shinohara turnouts are non-isolating power routing turnouts.
As such, basic power routing rules must apply, as Henry points out above:
Any electrical feeder to the turnout has to be on the point-side of the switch and,
Any frog-to-frog rail must be gapped or electrically isolated.
If the turnout leads to a short, stub siding you're OK on that route. If it is part of a passing siding there must be a gap somewhere between the frogs.
Generally the safest route is to have a gap close to the frog on both the rails diverging from the frog.
SeeYou190It seemed like a lot of work to me. Maybe that helped with my decision to stick with good old DC.
The same rules above apply to DC wired layouts (minus the Frog Juicer) you still have to gap power-routing turnouts. In place of a Frog Juicer you would use auxiliary contacts.
I still have a dozen or-so power-routing Shinohara turnouts on my DCC layout and they function just fine. They are friendly and polite, too. I didn't hack them up or solder a bunch of jumpers on them. They just work.
Good Luck, Ed
BigDaddy When in doubt, read the friendly manual: If the LEDs both go off for a second and then come back on thisindicates that the booster detected the short before the MFJ. If thishappens repeatedly then something is wrong and it must be fixed oryou risk destroying the MFJ.! You need insulated joiners on the frog rails, for one. They are power routing. Think of that as a manual frog juicer. To that, you have added a real frog juicer.
You need insulated joiners on the frog rails, for one. They are power routing. Think of that as a manual frog juicer. To that, you have added a real frog juicer.
The reason I asked about the color is because out of the 5 Frog Juicers installed on the layout already, 3 were red and 2 were green.
So I can't have both insulated rail joiners and a frog juicer?
I don't have a juicer so I was hoping more owners would weigh in on the colors.
The manual calls it a Frog Polarity Indicator LED. To me that means it would be red for the diverging route and green for the main, but I'm just a guy at the end of the bar on this one.
dslack490So I can't have both insulated rail joiners and a frog juicer?
More like — you have to have insulated joiners because you have power-routing turnouts.
The frog juicer will alternate the "phase" of the DCC power to match which way the points (thus the "rail A or B phase) are set.
This site may explain it a little better than the crowded "Wiring for DCC" site.
https://dccwiki.com/Wiring_Turnouts
I have four "Hex Frog Juicers" Honestly, I pay no attention to the LEDs since the very first time I wired them up they have worked flawlessly, thus, no reason to diagnose anything.
dslack490Also, with Tam Valley Frog Juicers, I'm assuming that agreen LED means the conenction is good, and a red means I have a short?
Depends on which LED.
Frog_juice6 by Edmund, on Flickr
Steady red LED for DCC power in. Brief blink at the "short" LED when a wheel or point change is detected. Each of the outputs had a red/green led to show the phase. It doesn't always change since there is a chance the phase is already aligned.
Does the turnout work OK (no shorts) with the juicer disconnected from the frog wire?
Hope that helps, Ed
You should not need a frog juicer on those turnouts. They are power routing and the points should be part of the frog so whatever way the points are set, that is the polarity of the frog. The frog is not isolated. Leave the frog juicer disconnected and put insulated rail joiners on both rails leaving the frog and You should be good to go.
You only need a frog juicer when the frog is isolated from the rest of the turnout.
Take Care!
Frank
zstripeThey are power routing and the points should be part of the frog so whatever way the points are set, that is the polarity of the frog.
In a perfect world this would be true, Frank. In reality, the contact points become oxidized and the back side of the points get gunk built up that prevents good conductivity to the point/frog rails.
In the cases where I used the auxiliary contacts on a Tortoise machine, if the timing was even a slight bit off or the points hung up for even a split second, you would get a short. Sometimes it was recommended to remove the little bronze contact strip from under the throwbar. Even after this, shorts would sometimes occur.
So, the Frog Juicer is a viable solution but the turnout has to function well and be properly gapped before wiring it up.
Regards, Ed
The whole reason these turnouts are not considered DCC friendly has nothing to do with power routing, or live frogs. It has to so with that throwbar and the point rails. Both point rails alwyas have the same polarity, so if the points are against the left stock rail, both points are at elft stock rail potential, and just across the narrow gap is the right stock rail at the opposite potential. Doesn't take much for th eback of a wheel to touch the open point rail, causing a short, which often goes unnoticed in DC but a quick reacting electronic circuit breaker as used in DCC may see that short and kill power, causing a stutter action as the offending loco or car passes through.
That's also why using Tortoise contacts for frog power required careful alignment, so the points didn't contact the opposite stock rail before the Tortoise contacts switched, or the Tortoise contaces didn't switch before the point rail came free from the original position. Dead short in either case. A Frog Juicer won't have this problem since it won't switch until the point rail contacts the opposite stock rail, causing a short which the Juicer will immediately correct
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
gmpullman dslack490 Also, with Tam Valley Frog Juicers, I'm assuming that agreen LED means the conenction is good, and a red means I have a short? Depends on which LED.
Fewer LED's on the single juicer. Don't know for sure what the OP meant by juicers
rrinkerThe whole reason these turnouts are not considered DCC friendly has nothing to do with power routing, or live frogs. It has to so with that throwbar and the point rails.
Again, the dozen or so that I left in place when I "converted" to DCC some twelve years ago perform just fine. All my equipment has metal wheels and some steam has long rigid wheelbases (2-10-2s, etc). The Shinohara design has an unusually large gap between the point and stock rails. Unless the wheel is out of gauge or derailed I've never had a problem with shorting between the points and stock rails.
It seems like the power-routing vs. all live turnout conundrum comes up here often. Nothing will cure shorted turnouts that are not properly wired or gapped.
Cheers, Ed
I had quite a few Shinohara turnouts on My layout, all wired the same as My post, well aware of how they work and why they were considered not being DCC friendly, but I don't run DCC......never plan to. A little zip of tuner cleaner or CRC 2-26 occasionally takes care of the point problem. They even made a product yrs. ago called Rail Zip, that also took care of the oxidation problem. I'm a firm believer in, If It ain't broke don't fix it.......................
I have two Shinohara turnouts with TV Frog Juicers on each. I too was having shorts. My solution was to cut gaps behind the frog and remove the little brass slide that is under the point end bar. They make contact under the side through rails for electrical contact.
That solved my short circuits.
James in Texas
zstripe You should not need a frog juicer on those turnouts. They are power routing and the points should be part of the frog so whatever way the points are set, that is the polarity of the frog. The frog is not isolated. Leave the frog juicer disconnected and put insulated rail joiners on both rails leaving the frog and You should be good to go. You only need a frog juicer when the frog is isolated from the rest of the turnout. Take Care! Frank
Tried this, and it worked with DC and DCC. Thank you.