TheK4KidI am going to have a tech at the local hobby shop put the TCS WOW sound decoder in my Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 I have two I boughtsome time ago. They are both NIB ! Done up in PRR theme.
Like this?
PRR_HH1b by Edmund, on Flickr
Good choice!
Regards, Ed
TheK4Kid THe other drawback to the Bachmann 4-6-2 Spectrum engines I have ( one DCC) and two DC is none of them have little pulling power. However I could put more powerful can motors in them, I just haven't. I now have 7 BLI steamers that all run fine.
THe other drawback to the Bachmann 4-6-2 Spectrum engines I have ( one DCC) and two DC is none of them have little pulling power.
However I could put more powerful can motors in them, I just haven't.
I now have 7 BLI steamers that all run fine.
A few thoughts about Bachmann locos and pulling power vs Broadway Limited.
Broadway uses traction tires on nearly every loco, Bachmann does not use traction tires.
A "more powerful can motor" will do nothing to improve pulling power. The existing motors are more than powerful enough.
The problem is weight, and thereby tractive effort.
Some Bachmann locos have been proven to be more than heavy enough to be good pullers, the USRA Heavy 4-8-2, the USRA light 2-10-2, even the 2-8-0, all pull very well for their size.
The K4 in particular is known to be a little light, and will benefit from extra weight.
Likewise the 2-8-4 Berkshire is a bit light. I added considerable weight to 5 of these while converting them to freelanced 2-8-2's. They pull very well with about 6 additional ounces of weight.
I don't own a Bachmann K4, because I don't model the PRR, but several of my friends are avid PRR modelers, so I am familiar with the model.
Simply add some weight.
Sheldon
I don't have any newer BLI locos, but my old PCM T-1s - the traction tire wheelsets are still wrapped in plastic and stuck in the boxes because I despise traction tires. And they don't seem to need them.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker I don't have any newer BLI locos, but my old PCM T-1s - the traction tire wheelsets are still wrapped in plastic and stuck in the boxes because I despise traction tires. And they don't seem to need them. --Randy
Yes, I have older PCM T1's as well that gave you the option, but from what I have seen and read, most of the newer ones are Traction tire equiped standard. My BLI Mikes and Pacifics are.
And so is my Blueline Class A. My older Class A may have had the spare driver, can't remember.
Point remains Bachmann has never offered traction tires at all on the Spectrum or newer Regular line locos.
AND, look at the locos Broadway has offered vs the locos Bachmann has offered. A big difference in "average size", with the Pacific, Mikado and Consolidation being the smallest locos from BLI.
It's easy to make T1's, Class A's, Big Boys, Challengers, and a variety of Mountains heavy enough to pull well, especially with traction tires.
Yes, just like this one.
I have been gone a couple of days, and the new Bachmann 4-6-2 Streamline engine arrived several days ago.
This evening I had time to unpackage it and was looking forward to using it.
But once again Bachmanns shoddy workmanship put an end to this!
The copper wiper on the rear truck of the tender was missing.
So I'll have to wait until Monday to call them and ask them to send me one.
They sent me an email , and that both technicians said the engine ran just fine at Bachmann.
All I know is it must have came loose before they boxed it up and sent it to me.
I am so frustrated with these people right now!
I did find out from a friend of mine who works on model trains for a local hobby shop told me that about 50% of the TCS WOW Sound wire harnesses on engines with TCS WOW Sound are defective!
I went online and found several videos on You Tube stating exactly that.
When they move around curves on layouts, the wires tend to flex , come loose and short out.
This is is an exclusive problem to TCS WOW Sound decoders.
Other TCS WOW sound decoder users complain that TCS manuals are difficult to read and figure out.
If you are an electrical engineer, like myself, you can probablyunderstand their manuals.
For the average hobbyist,most likely not.
I have read one, and it is quite difficult to understand.
Shove a product on the market before they ironed out all of their problems.
Sure they sound great, but they still have problems!
Until Bachmann can provide quality products to hobbyists , I will not buy anything more made by Bachmann.
They however used to make some quality products, but like many companies, quality went out the window in exchange for lower parts costs and profits!
A good example is the plastic body on the streamline K4 engine.
Yes it would cost more with a metal body, but personally I would rather have had a metal body.
So I will box this engine back up and await Bachmanns decision if they want it back again!
I actually bought the original on Ebay, and the seller would not take it back, so I may have to file a claim with Ebay.
For now I have a $300 paper weight!
I may not put TCS decoders in my 2-8-8-2s.
Adding weight can help, but I also build and fly RC airplanes, and now mostly power them with electric motors. I have rebuilt several motors, adding better magnets and better windings.
The torque increase is significant.
It has almost unlimited vertical performance!
It will pull a 22 pound airplane stright up almost out of sight!
I did rewind an older Diesel engine I had and it can pull almost 80 cars behind it, where before, 30 was the limit!
Update on TCS WOW Sound problem.
This morning, a friend of mine came over with a brand new PRR Streamline Bachmann steam engine.
He too has an NCE DCC system.
But he also has a Bachmann DCC system he uses for a Christmas tree layout.
He told me that the Bachmann K4 engine runs fine on the Bachmann DCC layout he has.
But fails to respond to any commands on his NCE system .
It just sets there and idles.
So upon setting it on my NCE controlled layout it just idles.
It will not respond to pushing"8" four times on one of my controllers or on his.
We switched out the NCE command station on mine for his.
Same problem.
Now, I have a Bachmann Berkshire NKP 765 steam engine with sound onboard.
It works just fine!
But it is a different decoder
Once again, my BLI steam engines all per4form fine on both NCE command stations.
So what seems to be a problem is the TCS WOW Sound decoders have some sort of a compatibility issue with NCE DCC systems.
The hobby shop he purchased it from also tested it, and found it will not respond to an NCE DCC system, but will with a Digitrax system, and a Bachmann DCC system.
But since it is a holiday weekend , I will have to wait until tomorrow to contact Bachmann once again.
I Googled the TCS WOW Sound problems and found a number of sites with discrepincies of theWOW Sound decoders.
Also the same on You Tube.
I am reading that the "keep alive" system is making it very difficult to program a WOW Sound equppied loco, even on a dedicated program track, and impossible on a mainline.
The You Tube videos on the K4 streamline K4 show it operating just fine, but gives no information on what power system it is running on.
Is anyone out tere running TCS WOW Sound decoders and what DCC system are you using?
Are you experiencig any kinds of problems?
I also will be contacting NCE tomorrow also.
TheK4Kid Adding weight can help, but I also build and fly RC airplanes, and now mostly power them with electric motors. I have rebuilt several motors, adding better magnets and better windings. The torque increase is significant. It has almost unlimited vertical performance! It will pull a 22 pound airplane stright up almost out of sight! I did rewind an older Diesel engine I had and it can pull almost 80 cars behind it, where before, 30 was the limit!
All the torque in the world does not matter if the drivers slip.
Sorry you are having so much trouble with Bachmann, completely the opposite of my experiances.
I have 36 Spectrum and newer Regular line Bachmann steam locos. While I have modified a number of them to improve their performance, I don't consider any of them poorly designed or manufactured.
I did have a few duds which they replaced with perfect running locos.
The locos in my fleet include:
9 - USRA Heavy 4-8-2's
10 - Baldwin 2-8-0's
5 - USRA and H-5/H-4 2-6-6-2's
3 - USRA Light 2-10-2's
2 - large driver 4-6-0's
5 - LIMA Berkshires converted to Heavy 2-8-2's
1 - B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4
1 - N&W J 4-8-4
The EM-1 is my most recent Bachmann purchase, and I have considered purchasing a few of the USRA Pacific's and Mikado's.
So I don't have any real recent Bachmann experiance.
But my BLI experiances have not really been all that great considering I only own 7 of their locos, and four had issues.
As for WOW sound decoders, or any decoders, Bachmann supplied or otherwise, I don't care for onboard sound, and I don't use DCC.
I have removed the factory decoders from all my locos, dual mode decoders do not work with my Aristo Craft Train Engineer DC throttles with pulse width modulation control.
I have a pretty strong electrial background as well. I was an electrical control system designer back in relay logic days and programed some of the first PLC's to start replacing relays.
Today my soon to be began new layout will feature an advanced cab control system, signaling, CTC, one button turnout routing and automatic power routing using a combination of solid state devices and relay logic.
It provides a train operating experiance pretty much like DCC.
Without the need to install decoders in my 140 locos needed to support over 30 staged trains on the 1400 sq ft layout.
Like you, I've been at this hobby a while.
My Uncle owned a hobby shop, I worked in, and managed the train department in several others, etc.
TheK4Kid Update on TCS WOW Sound problem. This morning, a friend of mine came over with a brand new PRR Streamline Bachmann steam engine. He too has an NCE DCC system. But he also has a Bachmann DCC system he uses for a Christmas tree layout. He told me that the Bachmann K4 engine runs fine on the Bachmann DCC layout he has. But fails to respond to any commands on his NCE system . It just sets there and idles. So upon setting it on my NCE controlled layout it just idles. It will not respond to pushing"8" four times on one of my controllers or on his. We switched out the NCE command station on mine for his. Same problem. Now, I have a Bachmann Berkshire NKP 765 steam engine with sound onboard. It works just fine! But it is a different decoder Once again, my BLI steam engines all per4form fine on both NCE command stations. So what seems to be a problem is the TCS WOW Sound decoders have some sort of a compatibility issue with NCE DCC systems. The hobby shop he purchased it from also tested it, and found it will not respond to an NCE DCC system, but will with a Digitrax system, and a Bachmann DCC system. But since it is a holiday weekend , I will have to wait until tomorrow to contact Bachmann once again. I Googled the TCS WOW Sound problems and found a number of sites with discrepincies of theWOW Sound decoders. Also the same on You Tube. I am reading that the "keep alive" system is making it very difficult to program a WOW Sound equppied loco, even on a dedicated program track, and impossible on a mainline. The You Tube videos on the K4 streamline K4 show it operating just fine, but gives no information on what power system it is running on. Is anyone out tere running TCS WOW Sound decoders and what DCC system are you using? Are you experiencig any kinds of problems? I also will be contacting NCE tomorrow also.
So, problems with the Bachmann service tech aside, it seems the problem may be more about the vendor supplied decoder than with the Bachmann manufactured locomotive............
Maybe I will buy one, gut the DCC electronics, repaint it for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL, add some weight, I suspect it will be just fine.........
I like streamlined steam for passenger trains....... I could use one or two more.
So much for compatiblity of DCC standards........
Every day I read stuff like this I get happier I never made the switch to DCC, carefully considered it three times........
At the end of the day, you are still playing those sounds out of itty bitty speakers, and to my HiFi trained ears they all sound like a 1966 9 transistor radio.
After I get the new layout up and running, I might play with some ideas I have for layout based sound.........or.........I will just listen to my 1700 vinyl records thru the speakers I designed and built while I run trains.
Again, I hope Bachmann gets it sorted out.
I miss the Lee Riley days, knew him personally when we were both young......
I can agree with youSheldon.
I too enjoy my vinyl records playing on my now 47 year old Pioneer SX 6000
receiver playing on my also 47year old Garrard SL95B turntable.
Nice to see vinyl is making a comeback.
There is a stereo and radio shop in Ft Wayne and the owner is an old geazer like us and repairs, tunes up, restores older receivers, amps, turntables.
He has several 4 channel units, both Pioneer and Sansui.
His shop is unique, nothing hi tech or fancy, just stacked to the ceiling with older stereo systems people sell to him or he picks up at auctions.
He was a former electrical engineer that worked for Pyle Speakers , and used to design them.
His shop is called Speaker World.
He even has some very nice older reel to reel tape decks.
He worked on my SX6000, it had a capacitor that needed replaced. Not bad for being almost 47years old. Bought it and my entire system when I was stationed in Okinawa.
I had a custom set of speaker cabinets and speakers made by a company called Tamon on Okinawa.
I went to an auction once years ago and bought 4 Sansui tower speakers that were part of an auction after a new country western night club went belly up during construction, and they never got used, still new in the box.
They sold twenty sets of them for $$275 a set.
I bought two sets.
I use them in my home theater, one speaker in each corner of the room, and a Pyle center speaker and Pyle rear bass speaker.
Their shop had about 25 sets of speaker and cabinet combos to choose from
I also bought a very nice pair of Pioneer 77 speakers from Speaker World here locally
He gives vets a nice price cut!
As far as my Bachmann locos, this is the first one I ever had problems with.
I also have 7 BLI steam locos, never had a problem with them
I agree with the fact that the problem I am having lies with TCS.
I have discussed online with a few others having problems with TCS WOW sound decoders.
If they have the "keep alive" circuitry also, they are very diffcult , to even impossibe to program properly, change any CVs, etc.
I feel in their move to rush them onto the market, they didn't correct all their problems.
A friend of mine who owns a hobby shop in Michigan called me after reading my problems on here.
He bought ten of them for his store, thinking they would all sell like candy bars.
So far, all ten are defective, or been brought back by customers.
So what does this tell you?
He told me none of them will operate on a NCE DCC system, they just set the there and do nothing. Trying to program them or change CV's by pressing on the program button on an NCE hand held controller four times, the engines do not respond.
When set on "3" as the loco select, they just set on the test track and idle.
However they do run perfectly on a Bachmann DCC system.
So there is a definite problem of being uncompatable with an NCE DCC system.
The lights, bells and whistles also do not work, unless powered by a Bachmann DCC power system.
Two of them set on his test track and went bzzz bzzz bzzz bzzz like the last one I had.
Tomorrow I am going totake mine to the LHS and have them take a look at it.Their shop guy does DCC decoder installs.
I will take along one of my Proto 2000 2-8-8-2s and possibly let him install a dcoder in it.
It sure on't be a TCS decoder.
What address are you trying to run it on? NCE can address short addresses 1-127, but you have to plug the number in differently when selecting the loco. NCE prefers ALL address be used as long addresses.
If the Bachmann system is the EZ Command, then indeed it is setting the address to a short address, button 1 sets the loco to address 1, button 2 to address 2, etc. It is a VERY simplistic system.
Try programming a long address, anything will do, but set it to a long address. The sitting there and not responding is classic you have an address selected which is not the address in the decoder.
Perhaps all sound decoders should be ignored - the instructions are ALWAYS more complex then motor decoder, there are so many more things to set up on them. TCS has a verbal programming system so you don't really need to know the CVs, you can set them up just following the voice prompts. Sort of like going through an automated bank teller.
The decoders have been out for several years now, they are not "half baked". ANd I fail to see how the wiring harness between the loco and tender would be any different for a TCS decoder vs any other sound decoder Bachmann previously used. You need the same number of wires, and they need plugs and sockets so you can separate the two. Pretty much any sound-equipped steam loco has a system almost exactly the same.
Randy,
Bachmann sent me a note in the box stating the loco would run on "3".
It does not!
As far as the voice prompts , the loco has to work to make that part of the program available to you.
With the TCS decoder failing to recognize any commands audio assist does not work!
Nor did the previous two locos.Mine can't be programmed because it is missing the copper brush that fits over the rear tenderaxles.
I just explained above a friend of mine has a hobby shop in Michigan, ordered 10 of the streamlined K4s from Bachmann
All ten are defective!
I have been reading online, that some users of the loco with the TCS WOW unit are very difficult to unableto program the locos if they have the "keep alive circuitry"
Go Google the problem or look on You Tube.
Randy, I am an electrical engineer ( now retired) and if I had a schematic diagram for the WOW Sound decoder I could most likely find the problem.
But micro circuitry literally can't be worked on in most cases, it simply needs replaced.
And I am sure TCS is not going to allow anyone to have a schematic of their trademark
product.
The previous loco before I sent it back to Bachmann would not accept any commands sent to it when I pushed the program button 4 times on an NCE hand held controller.
I tried programming 3 into it, which it would not accept.
It just set and idled on the track
The lights would not work, the engine would not move, the whistle and bell would not work.
This latest one arrived with the copper nwiper that should go over the rear set of axles was missing.
This is a Bachmann problem. The previous loco theysent me was missing the screws that hold the plastic tender body on .
I'm getting rather frustrated with Bachmann.
Overall I have now had three of the streamlined K4 Bachman locos, of which none have worked.
I have a Bachmann Bewrkshire NKP 765 loco which runs just fine, but it also is built much better than the K4 streamline loco
It has sound on board and I have had no problems with it or my other non DCC Bachmann K4 locos of which I have 5 of them
All my Bachmann DCC locos had the same wiring arrangements. Two connectors. I traced them.
All I have seen on You Tube is slipping drivers and the loco coupling bar issue but I have not looked very much so far.
This is really an unusual issue.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Yes - SHORT ADDRESS 3. that is not the same as long address 3. NMRA standard for a reset or new decoder is that is is addressed as short address 3. I seriously doubt there is any sort of serious flaw in the microcode or even the circuit itself - there's not a whole lot to a decoder, actually, there may be external memeory for the microcontroller, and there is a bridge rectifier, and there are some drivers for the function outputs, and the H bridge for the motor drive. Possibly an off-chip amplifier depending on the micro being used.
Make sure you are selecting 3. Not 03, not 003, not 0003. Otherwise, you will be selecting long address 3 and it will not run Yoou will get basic background sounds but not control over speed or any functions.
Just adding to what Randy said for components on the decoder.
I found the below link some years ago that shows what decoders "probably" have. They all vary quite a lot. That is an old document. Beginning of stay alive.
They use a computer controlled machine to produce the decoders. I use to have a document from Litchfield Station showing the machine. Quite a machine that even test the decoder.
Some might have more than one layer on the PC board so very difficult to trace. Not sure on that issue.
http://web.archive.org/web/20120729061658/http:/www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm
I 8sed short ardreess 3 on my previous two.
It was not accfepted.
MY buddy's loco will accept short address 3 on hs Bachmann system.
Put it on his NCE test track, it will not accept anything.
When I talked to my buddy up in Michigan, the store has a Bachmann power unit and controller.
All ten locos will work fine using the Bachmann system
Put the TCS WOW Sound with keep alive on the NCE test track, they do absolutely nothing.Except several of them set on the track and go bzzz bzzz, bzzz bzzzz bzzz bzz.
Exactly what mine did and short circuit lighton the NCE Command sation blinks.
So tell me, why do they not want torun on an NCE DCC system.
There is some sort of a compatability issue.
He said they will run on a Digitrax system.
So what is different bewteen a Digitrax and an NCE system?
They are suposed to meet NMRA standards and compatibility
I have other DCC locos that run on both Digitrax and NCE, but not these Bachmann TCS WOW Sound with keep alive.
I am mystified as to what cuases this problem.OIther TCS WOW sound with kee alve presents problems with origramming
Some are reporting difficulty from, difficult to impossibe to program a loco.
Are you able to post a photo of the TCS decoder in your K4?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
A short is a short is a short. If the loco shorts on the rails of one DCC system before even moving, it's going to short on any other DCC system.
Though I wonder if it's having trouble starting up because of keep alive inrush. Except the little Bachmann EZ Command has even less power than a PowerCab.
The fulle NCE system has always had issues with sound decoders, the program track output doesn;t have enough power to handle keep alives or even the smalelr capacitors most all sound decoders have just to keep the sound going. The PowerCab generally does not have this problem. Some Digitrax systems work well with sound decoders, some do not. Most any system will have issues with simple 2 wire keep alives, there's nothing to stop the inrush, and the inrush 'eats' the program pulse. If going the cheap way, a 2 pin connector to disconnect the keep alive is essential if you want to program the things. Lenz, ESU, and some others have a 3 wire system, the keep alives are more expensive but this also allows the decoder to control the keep alive and avoid some of these issues. Typically an NCE PH Pro system needs a program track booster to handle sound locos. Or program on the main, although if the loco will not respond to short address 3 then it can't be programmed.
NCE sent me an email this afternoon.
TCS WOW Soundis very difficult to program.
And if it has the keep alive caps with it, it can be very difficult to program, and often is and may require disconnecting the caps..
Okay so this explains it.
But TCS does not make this knoweldege known in most cases.
So when an engine goes on the market , such as the Bachmann K4 with TCS WOW Sound with keep alive, no paperwork or manuals come with the engine
explaining the problems the end user may run into, or how to deal with it.
Poor policy on TCS's part
I do have a orogram track with a booster on it.
Well, you can;t really disconnect the keep alives on those, they are built on to the motherboard that houses the decoder. They aren't like adding a keep alive to an existing decoder where you will have two wires that you can either install a connector on or maybe has a connector to the decoder that you can pull. This is been talked about in nearly every article about adding keep alives I've ever seen.
Simple solution is programming on the main. No booster needed, and I don;t know why so many people fear it. Program commands are sent ONLY to the selected address, you will not program every loco on the layout (unless you program to address 00 which is a broadcast). Readback is also somewhat overrated - if the current value isn;t right, what do I care what it is? But TCS goes a step further and has verbal programming where it will speak values and walk you through programming options without needing to know any CVs.
OEMs rarely include full documentation. Not Bachmann, not Athearn, etc. They supply a quick start if you are lucky, listing which F key does what. Otherwise - you need to go to the decoder manufacturer's web site to get the full documentation for the decoder. This is not TCS's problem or fault.
The booster should program it - unless it's the PowerPax. That one has issues with lots of sound decoders besides the one it was originally introduced to work with, namely QSI. The Soundtraxx PTB-100 seems to work best with a variety of decoders. Or skip the slow and weak program output on the system and use an SPROG. NCE is a bit behind the curve on programming track connections - rumor has some new command station coming, but who knows.
Despite using DC and having no interest in onboard sound I have been following this thread with interest. And I have done some research on my own.
Greg Elmassian, a well respected, primarily large scale guy, and top electronics guy I know from years ago on the Aristo forum, has documented a lot of these TCS problems on his web site.
He has documented these NCE compatibility issues and other TCS issues.
Honestly, just reading all this makes me very happy that I don't have a dog in this fight.
And it is interesting how Bachmann got thrown under this bus by TCS and the customers.
I've been using TCS decoders since I got DCC, never had any issues with them or their support. Although, I don't use an NCE system. Interesting since their under development DCC system is most like NCE. NCE has some issues, mostly with programming though, since their system has remained, at least on the hardware level, unchanged since the earliest days. Sure they've updated the UI and added extended function support with replacement EPROMs, but the booster and command station circuitry has remained very much as it was (though I don't think they still use a light bulb to restrict program track current - seriously. That was an early mod for sound decoders - parallel a second light bulb to double the program track current). Could be why Duncan at Tam Valley developed his DCC soft start device, which helps the system turn on with a high inrush load. But then, ask around Digitrax forums and they'll often tell you the PM42 power manager can;t restart with even just ONE sound loco in a district that shuts down. I put 5 sound locos in one section and deliberately shorted the rails - mine recovered just fine when I removed the short. They also often say the original Zephyr can't program sound decoders - I've generally had no problems with mine. My PR3 also seems to work with any brand decoder - using the supplied 14V power supply, not a 16-18 volt replacement supply some recommend. Why is this? I doon't know. I hook the stuff up per the instructions and it works.
I've been able to run TCS motor decoders, of which I have many, with an NCE PwooerCab, but that has a newer system design than the 'big' system and can generally program all sound decoders with no booosters. I don;t have any TCS WOW decoder, I have settled on using ESU exclusively for sound. Tom (tstage) has at least one WOW decoder I think, and runs it with an NCE system.
I know others have complained about poor drive with TCS motor decoders (and one well known modelr with a HUGE operational layout actually prefers Digitrax decoders - which have a noticible bump in speed going between certain steps as the accumulated error in the calculations is not dispersed throughout the rang ebut collected at specific points. I can demonstrate this quite handily with a Digitrax decoder. You can minimize it, but never eliminate it, with lots of tuning. My TCS locos, on the other hand, are perfectly smooth, creeping on speed step 1 and smoothly advancing to full speed. The rough operation encounted by this modelr is something I've never seen in any of the dozens or more TCS decoders I have installed, all with BEMF. ANd it's not system - this modeler uses Digitrax as well. I've run some of my TCS locos with NCE, seem to be just as good, if a bit grosser in speed changes, bue mainly to NCE's defaulting to 28 steps for everything and Digitrax defaulting to 128. Perhaps this is the root of the issue.
I did a google search for TCS wowsound NCE and found one page which has a lot of negative things to say about NCE, including frequent runaways - I have NEVER had a runaway with my DCC system. But I also program my decoders to not run on DC, and since Digitrax does allow coontrol of a DC loco, I also disable that feature in my system because I never use it. Most of the issues seem to be in regards to manufacturing issues with some smaller scale drop in decooders - also not an issue for me because for the most part I've used only the T-series wired decoders because I replace factory electronics as much as possible - I don't trust it - and hard wire my decoders. There are complaints about the sound qualities of the WOWSound but while I didn't see an obvious date on the posting it's fairly clear it was from early on in the production as more recent videos such as Ken Patterson's What's Neat showing TCS Wow decoders don;t seem to have the issues mentioned, so firmware updates have fixed a lot oof those problems. By now they should be quite solid. Nice that they can be updated, although not by the end user, which is really a shame. One of the reasons I went with ESU - I can update the decoders with both additional or improved operating features as well as sounds without ever opening the loco back up. Maybe some of the other Euro decoders do this, but none of the common US ones do.
Curious as to what some of these issues with NCE are, outside of programming, which is to be expected. Given that they seem to work on every other DCC system I'm not so sure the problem lies with TCS.
Hi Randy,
I spoke with an NCE senior engineer also,he puts the blame squarely on TCS.
He also stated they are getting many questions with TCS WOW sound equipped locos, and the problems are much like mine.
Also stated that all CVs will have to be changed and if Bachman send s new unit programmed to 3, it will not opeartae until all CVs are changed,
So it is not an out of the box ready to run loco.
If I had known what I know now, Iwouldn't have touched this loco with a ten foot pole!
I can program on my program track or on the mainline.
Using the mainline, all power units are removed.
I have been using NCE DCC for 10 years now, havinng both NCE Pro and NCE Powewr Cab controllers, two of each hooked up two on the front side of the layout, two on te far side of the layout.
I have never has any problems related to NCE.
The email from NCE was quite lengthy, buut definetly said WOW Sound can be problematic to program and with keep alive, much more so.
What the advertisementon You Tube doesn'tshow you, is number one, it is running on a Bachmann DCC system.
Number two it was programmed by techs who knew how to address and correct problems that came up.
I have sent emails to TCS about this problem also , three over the past week.
They have not answered any of them as of yet
I didn't bother watching advertisement videos from dealers or Bachmann.
ANY decoder with keep alive will be harder to program, especially on an NCE PH Pro system. But also on some other older systems like one using a Digitrax DCS100 which was also designed before sound decoders, and definitely designed before keep alives.
NCE does some odd things, though they are within the NMRA DCC specs, related to how often function packets are sent to locos - is this what CV they want you to change, the one that sets the packet timeout in the decoder? Otherwise there's no reason why short address 3 cannot be used on NCE, though they do not recommend using short addresses at all. Short address/long address ranges is a huge failure by the NMRA DCC Group in an attempt to appease all manufacturers and causes the most confusion of anything related to DCC. NCE and Digitrax can treat 1-127 as short. NCE can treat 1-127 as long. Lenz treats 1-99 as short always, and 100+ as long, always. Digitrax treats 1-127 as short, always, and 128+ as long, always. So there are combinations of addresses that will work on one or more systems but not others. The decoders can do it either way, CV29 determines if the address in CV1 (short) is active or the address in CV17 and 18 is active (long). I place the blame for this confusion directly on the NMRA group, not any of the manufacturers, because as written, none of these options violates the standards definitions - they were written that loosely.
I follow both the Digitrax and NCE groups, formerly on Yahoo, now on groups.io, and haven't seen much about WOW decoders. Almost always programming issues. Quick search found only one other mention about possible consisting issues, but when another poster asked what those issues were, there was no reply. Sounds like one of those "I heard on the internet" kind of things.
Just a few extraneous comments addressing some previous comments on this thread...
Tom
The problem is fixed!
Two changes were made.
The guy who repaired and programed my Bachmann streamilined 4-6-2 K4 has manyyears experience and has designed and built many locomotives, many from scratch.
The problem with removing the front tender truck was resolved by removing it with the tender in an upright position.
Removed both trucks. Then very carefully glued the nut holding the front truck in place.
It will not come loose again.
Replaced both trucks with much better trucks with actual spring suspension trucks.
The electrical conection at both trucks was really quite poor becuse they can be very easily snapped off.
After using a VOM, we found the electrical connection was easily broken if the trucks moved at all.
The copper wipers were not making good contact to where they are fastened on the tender trucks.
If you take a small screwdriver and put just a tad of upward pressure on the wiper, it snaps right off, so it is very loosely fastened to the truck.I have never seen a connection like this before on any of my locos.
To make a comparison, my Bachmann Berkshire 765 steam engine tender with Sound Onboard, the trucks have ultiple wipers on them and fastened so they don't come loose.
Basically a make and break connection which would result in difficult programming
So we replaced them with two pure silver stiff braided braids , that when you screw the trucks back on and use a small washer to hold the braids in place.Silver is a far superior electrical conductor.
Then he was able to remove the keep alive caps.
Then we programmed it on the main with an oscilliscope connected to the main line track.
This way we coud measure any pulses being sent to the unit.
It programmed perfectly and now runs perfectly.
We did find thatthe keep alive caps tend to interfere with trying to bring the loco to a complete stop, and I am considering have him remove them.
He himself has a 2-10-2 IHC mountain steam engine he bought with a TCSWOW decoder in it.
It also doesn't want to slow down and stop easily, it just keeps running for about 15 seconds.
I have never had a problem with any of my locos stopping on my layout, even on a switch turnout.
I keep my track clean, so I don't really see any advantage of the keep alive function.My layout is 6 feet wide by 24 feet long, and I am adding 18 foot by 30 inch wide section to it.
The tender rides much better with the new trucks on it.
The problem may have been a very poor electrical connection thru the trucks to the copper wipers to the main board in the tender.
So Iwill not be sending itback to Bachmann
Glad to hear you got it running good.
Since I have not seen that model up close yet, I will not comment on your modifications other than to say it does seem you have made it a better model, as I have done with minor mods to most brands.
The challanges you faced with the DCC system make me glad I don't like onboard sound...........
It comfirms that my instincts were right when on three occasions I considered but rejected DCC for my needs.
Take care,
I still don't understand how bad pickups made it fail on one brand of DCC system but work on others. That makes no sense, either the loco is getting pwoer and signal or it is not, the brand of equipment on the other end has no bearing on that.
I've had the exact opposite experience - of all the sound equipped locos I have, or others ahve run on my layout, I only have gotten rid of one - and that's because I didn;t liek the sound quality, not because it didn;t run. I traded it for the same loco with a different brand of decoder that I preferred. I've also had zero DOA decoders, sound or not, and I have yet to have any decoders, sound or otherwise, fail, in the 14 or 15 years I've had DCC. I don't, however, have any Bachmanns except a 44 tonner, and I have none of the BLI locos since they started using their own branded decoders, the Paragon 2 or Paragon 3 ones. I wouldn;t get the Bachmann locos with the low cost sound decoders even if they did make a loco that fit my needs, and the first re-run of the Reading T1s from BL=I that has the Paragon 2 decoders, we happened to be set up at a show when all the preorders came in, and we ended up testing each one because there were quite a few that had issues. I'll stick with my two older ones with ESU decoders, I've had them since they were first released and the both run great, no problems. I'm pushing it to include them in my era so as it is.
rrinker I still don't understand how bad pickups made it fail on one brand of DCC system but work on others. That makes no sense, either the loco is getting pwoer and signal or it is not, the brand of equipment on the other end has no bearing on that. I've had the exact opposite experience - of all the sound equipped locos I have, or others ahve run on my layout, I only have gotten rid of one - and that's because I didn;t liek the sound quality, not because it didn;t run. I traded it for the same loco with a different brand of decoder that I preferred. I've also had zero DOA decoders, sound or not, and I have yet to have any decoders, sound or otherwise, fail, in the 14 or 15 years I've had DCC. I don't, however, have any Bachmanns except a 44 tonner, and I have none of the BLI locos since they started using their own branded decoders, the Paragon 2 or Paragon 3 ones. I wouldn;t get the Bachmann locos with the low cost sound decoders even if they did make a loco that fit my needs, and the first re-run of the Reading T1s from BL=I that has the Paragon 2 decoders, we happened to be set up at a show when all the preorders came in, and we ended up testing each one because there were quite a few that had issues. I'll stick with my two older ones with ESU decoders, I've had them since they were first released and the both run great, no problems. I'm pushing it to include them in my era so as it is. --Randy
I have to believe that the loco had more than one issue, and that any intermittant issue can make other problems hard to pin down.
We all focus where our interests are.
I have had great success with Bachmann steam and also have the 44 tonners, 70 tonners, and doodlebugs.
I don't have much BLI, and percentage wise have had more issues with them than with Bachmann.
But as you know, I don't have decoder issues either, they go on EBay (sold a bunch of those old Bachamm motion only decoders years ago), or get given away to friends.
I bought my READING T1's without DCC during that time when BLI/PCM offered them that way. Many of my other BLI locos now have Bachmann tenders - Pacifics, Mikados, even the N&W Class A. The big C&O 2-8-4 tender looks great behind them.
It just ssems to me that the OP is right about one thing, it should not be this hard to set up a loco and get it running.......and the decoder seems to be more of a problem than the loco mechanicals.