i've been fortunate to operate turntables with indexing: both old school and latest walthers. I've recently gotten an old walthers (933-3171) to work halfway decently but it seems challenging to be able to stop the bridge at a specific point.
i've recently read that people use two pushbuttons to make the bridge turn in one direction or the other and "jog" the bridge into position. how do you guys do it?
it would make sense to have the bridge move more slowly when trying to position it but be able to have it move faster at times. I'm sure having an electronic brake would be helpful. I can see how with a processor the speed can increase over time.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I learned to use a turntable on the Scale Rails of Southwest Florida's HO scale layout back in the 1990's. It was a Bowser turntable with a DPDT spring return center off toggle for control.
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It took about 45 seconds to make a full revolution. Never has any trouble lining it up by eye, but it was within 20 inches of the aisle.
I have only used Bowser turntables since.
I do not think you need two speeds, and manual crank is always a good option too.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
gregc i've been fortunate to operate turntables with indexing: both old school and latest walthers. I've recently gotten an old walthers (933-3171) to work halfway decently but it seems challenging to be able to stop the bridge at a specific point. i've recently read that people use two pushbuttons to make the bridge turn in one direction or the other and "jog" the bridge into position. how do you guys do it? it would make sense to have the bridge move more slowly when trying to position it but be able to have it move faster at times. I'm sure having an electronic brake would be helpful. I can see how with a processor the speed can increase over time.
I have been reading your other thread about indexing and resisted the temptation to ask "why?".
I have the CMR 135' turntable with the Berkshire Junction motor. CMR now sells the motor kit directly, but I think it is the same.
Anyway, it is just a slow speed geared motor with a reversing switch and a operator switch.
From center off the operator switch is momentary in one direction, and "on" in the other direction. It allows you to run the table close to the desired track, then jog it into final position, just like the prototype.
Yes you need a good visual location. But that's what everyone is doing these days right? Keeping all the operational track close to the aisle?
Prototype turntables did not move very fast, a relatively small motor was geared to provide the necessary torque.....
It works fine, not hard to do at all.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have been reading your other thread about indexing and resisted the temptation to ask "why?".
as an engineer, i'm curious how Walthers is able to build a good turntable with inexpensive parts (doesn't mean the TT is inexpensive).
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes you need a good visual location. But that's what everyone is doing these days right? Keeping all the operational track close to the aisle?
the layout that users the Walthers TT is ~5' high and the TT is located ~2' from the edge. I had to get up on a step stool and lean over the layout to align and program the track positions.
since it moves pretty slow (1rpm?) i would command it to a particular track while doing other things. Guess I was spoiled being able to position the bridge, sight unseen.
To answer your first question, understanding the requirements of a design is the first step to not over building it.
Some things are truely better overbuilt, like my GRAVELY riding tractor. But many times good enough is good enough.
Sometimes "the enemy of good is better".
Just the thoughts of someone who designs houses, hifi speakers, hydronic heating systems and old school electronics.
Years ago I built (and sold a few) speaker systems using very inexpensive drivers. They sound great. I have had people who own serious high end stuff tell me how fantasic my speakers sound......I still listen to them today.
As for turntable locations, well, more of my personal opinion here, but after doing it once, thinking it would be cool, I will never build a layout that high again.
I'm building the next one to get that view sitting in a rolling desk chair.....with 5' wide aisles.
Doing two things at once? Not me, and not on the prototype.....
Despite my obvious love of gadgets and building things - my plan is for the turntable on my layout to be completely manual. It will be near the aisle, so it will be easy to see when tracks are lined up. I got to see a demonstration of the operation of the one at the Railroad Museum of PA, and that one, a former Reading turntable, basically has two speeds, traverse and jog. Neither is super fast.Granted, a real turntable also has locking plates to alight the bridge to the pit. Someone wants to make that all work on an HO or smaller model - it would be neat to watch, I'm sure. On the club layout we have a turntable run by the simple method of a motor rubbing on a plywood disk under the layout, powered by an old walkaround DC throttle (which someone has thoughtfully scratched a line in indicating where to set the speed) and a center off momentary DPDT toggle. It sits right at the edge of the layout, so it is very easy to get the tracks close and then blip the switch a little to get perfect alignment. No complex indexing circuits, no sensors to deal with or calibrate (being a modular layout, transporting it around would probably mean having to calibrate each time it gets set up). The bridge just lifts out and is safely packed away, and the underneath stuff doesn;t hang down below the side framing members of the module itself. It just always works, and no one seems to have any trouble turning their steam locos on it. So my plan is to go with something equally simple. Maybe buttons for CW/CCW instead of a toggle, and with both buttons released, the motor leads will be shorted to form a brake. Basic slip rings, and an autoreverser complete it. I want to keep it up front to show off my locos, on the turntable and in the roundhouse. If it were to be in the back and not easily viewed, then I'd need some sort of indexing.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerOn the club layout we have a turntable run by the simple method of a motor rubbing on a plywood disk under the layout,
i built an indexing turntable using this approach. It has small cardboard tags pinned and hanging from the plywood disk. The tags go thru an optical switch.
buttons start movement either CW or CCW. The processor detects the next optical sensor in one direction and stops the motor. It back tracks in the other direction.
the tags can be tilted a bit to adjust alignment.
Hi Greg,
The Walthers 90' turntable that I built for my club will use an old model train set 'transformer'. The bridge can be sped up if desired but it will run very slowly when the throttle is turned down. Reverse is built right into the throttle. Trial runs suggest that it will work fine. The center of the turntable will be about 18" from the aisle.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
gregc Walthers is able to build a good turntable with inexpensive parts
I have never heard the owner of one call the Walthers turntable "good", I have heard lots of other names for them.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSome things are truely better overbuilt, but many times good enough is good enough.
I am a chronic overbuilder. I do not understand this "good enough" that you are referring to.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some things are truely better overbuilt, but many times good enough is good enough. . I am a chronic overbuilder. I do not understand this "good enough" that you are referring to. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some things are truely better overbuilt, but many times good enough is good enough.
I have noticed that reading your benchwork thread........
SeeYou190 gregc Walthers is able to build a good turntable with inexpensive parts I have never heard the owner of one call the Walthers turntable "good", I have heard lots of other names for them.
i have the old 933-3171 kit that needs to be assembled and has problems. But the new motorized (933-2860) and DCC (933-2859) Walthers turntables come assembled and have indexing that works well. They are not simply assembled versions of the 933-3171 kit.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some things are truely better overbuilt, but many times good enough is good enough. I am a chronic overbuilder. I do not understand this "good enough" that you are referring to.
successful engineering is about meeting time and cost goals to meet functional requirement. It requires understanding the materials, reliable mechanics and techniques to minimize design (e.g. fewer and smaller transistors, fewer lines of code). A customer doesn't pay extra for exceeding requirements (of course some buyers have a false sense of quality).
when building a layout with long list of tasks, spending only as much time as necessary to be "good enough" is a way to complete the layout and get it running in a reasonable amount of time.
Structures, scenery, weathering, ... are not required to run a layout. But even Tony Koester wrote a column about simple weathering of cars that was "good enough" to complete the task of wethering hundreds of cars in a timely manner.
Romans developed arches to save materials and construction time to build viaducts and aqueducts that were good enough (and are still standing).
Allow me to chime in here.
I bought the original Walthers Cornerstone non-DCC 130' indexed turntable back in 2004 and have been using it successfully ever since.
When I first installed the turntable, I programmed the indexing function to track a 9-stall roundhouse. I immediately noticed two problems with indexing.
The first problem was the stopping point feature. Using indexing, the bridge track slightly overruns the stopping point and then reverses to align the bridge track with the roundhouse track (what I call the 'stopping point'). The problem with all of this is that the alignment was not always perfect, resulting in derailments. This misalignment happened, maybe, 1 out of every 4 tries.
The second problem was that the indexed feature resulted in the bridge track stopping at each programmed stopping point on the way to the intended stopping point. In other words, lets say that the bridge track was rotating clockwise from left to right to reach the middle roundhouse track (the 5th roundhouse stall). Along the way, the bridge track would stop at each of the first four roundhouse tracks.
Those two problems got to be so frustrating that I eventually defeated the indexing function by disabling it. Having done so, I am quite content with operating the bridge track manually by working with the two directional buttons on the control box. I can do it faster and more accurately with no derailments. I actually think that ths is the preferable way to operate the turntable.
All that said, I consider the Walthers Cornerstone non-DCC 130' indexed turntable to be outstanding.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainI bought the original Walthers Cornerstone non-DCC 130' indexed turntable back in 2004 and have been using it successfully ever since. ... alignment was not always perfect, resulting in derailments.
... alignment was not always perfect, resulting in derailments.
presumably this is one (90', 110', 130') assembled and motorized turntables, not the DCC versions.
i wonder if the advanced control module, which offers DCC control provides improved indexing similar to the DCC turntables i've used?
gregc richhotrain I bought the original Walthers Cornerstone non-DCC 130' indexed turntable back in 2004 and have been using it successfully ever since. ... alignment was not always perfect, resulting in derailments. presumably this is one (90', 110', 130') assembled and motorized turntables, not the DCC versions. i wonder if the advanced control module, which offers DCC control provides improved indexing similar to the DCC turntables i've used?
richhotrain I bought the original Walthers Cornerstone non-DCC 130' indexed turntable back in 2004 and have been using it successfully ever since. ... alignment was not always perfect, resulting in derailments.
I don't think they changed anything other than to add DCC accessory decoder funtionality to pick which of the preset positions to move to. The ACM just gives some additional hardware hooks into the system, it doesn't change or replace the indexing system. The whole method of programming the "DCC" version is exactly the same as the older one. See the thread on the ACM - it connect to but does not replace the controller already in the turntable, so that you cna use alternate methods of selecting a track, and also generate outputs based on each position to do things like drive relays to automatically power only the lined up stall track.
My only experience with the Walthers turntable has been negative. I didn't install it, so there's no guarantee, but everything else on the layout works, so I can't imagine whoever in the club installed the turntable messed it up. Everything works, that is except the similar Walthers automatic transfer table. I'm seeing a pattern here.
rrinker My only experience with the Walthers turntable has been negative. I didn't install it, so there's no guarantee, but everything else on the layout works, so I can't imagine whoever in the club installed the turntable messed it up. Everything works, that is except the similar Walthers automatic transfer table. I'm seeing a pattern here.
So, if the DCC version has the same setup as the non-DCC version, then I assume that the operating experience will be similar to mine.
looks like Walthers turntable controllers have evolved as well. This is the one I've used that appears to work well with turntables using an encoder and zero-pt sensor on the pit wall. It is compatible with the motorized non-DCC turntables.
Interesting the downloadable instructions for that say nothign about how to swap the circuit board int he bridge. I guess you are supposed to figure out how to open it up and do that yourself. I know they say it is for advanced technical modelers, but still.. a clue would help.
Our transfer table has that controller, the turntable has the odler style one.
The ACM is not compatible with that controller, or the DCC turntables that come with that controlelr already, it's only for the older non-DCC ones - mainly because the ACM adds the same DCC funtionality plus a bunch of extra stuff.
gregcRomans developed arches to save materials and construction time to build viaducts and aqueducts that were good enough (and are still standing).
If they are still standing 1,000 years after their useful lifespan, I think they were over-engineered.
Ah but was their designed lifespan? The Romans expected their empire to last forever. The pyramids are even older and still standing - but their design lifetime was eternity.
Quite a number of years ago I bulit my own turntable what I originally planned to just operate manually.
On a quirk I decided to see if I could make it operate. I bought a 'gearhead' big reduction motor unit from these guys,..https://www.allelectronics.com/pdf-catalog
I just hooked it to a small spare powerpac i had and it worked just great. Just needed a good line of sight.
Did the photos show up??
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Yep, they are there. That is one packed and busy railroad. Now I see where your going with you new layout.
Mike.
My You Tube
I know I am late to this post, but I just purchased a Walther's 130' turntable. The indexing, so far, has been fine - my BIG PROBLEM is that they say the bridge rails are code 83 AND THEY ARE (I used a caliper to check) BUT they sit a TINY bit lower than the pit rail so I had to grind out a slot for the lead and roundhouse tracks - I AM UPSET!
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