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wiring for a double crossing

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  • Member since
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  • From: Central Texas
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wiring for a double crossing
Posted by novicerr on Monday, December 31, 2018 1:18 PM

I have a pensula on the layout I am building (HO scale.) The track runs up one side and loops around to other side. I am putting a doublecross over between the parallel tracks (north bound and south bound). Am going to use PSX ARs. (have 2 from previous layout).

With 4 turnouts, where do I need gaps, and how do I wire reverser, so I don't have shorts? Using an atlas 60 degree crossing, if that makes any difference.

I don't have any pictures, and don't have a cellphone, so can't send photos.

Hope this is not too confusing. I have read the material at wiringfordcc.com, but I am more confused now than ever. Help please.

Thank you in advance

Charlie

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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Monday, December 31, 2018 1:49 PM

 Gap each end of the loop, on the loop side of the crossovers. Use the PSX-AR to power the loop. If you then wire the main lines in parallel you can have as many crossovers as you want and no more autoreversers are needed. If the other end of the layout also loops around, use the second PSX-AR on that loop. Simplest wiring for a dogbone shape - reversers for the loops, then you cna do whatever you want on the shank as far as sidings and croossovers and not create any more reverse sections (unless you build   wye off to a penninsula in the middle).

                                  --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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  • From: Central Texas
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Posted by novicerr on Monday, December 31, 2018 2:01 PM

Thanks much Randy. Will do that later today or tomorrow. I knew I was over thinking the solution. Brain just couldn't figure it out.

No wye planned. track runs around room from there for continuous running. Another track runs continuously around with turnouts to connect to this track.

Thanks again

  • Member since
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  • From: Central Texas
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Posted by novicerr on Monday, December 31, 2018 2:44 PM

Probably overthinking again, but, still looks like crossover will have shorts.  I have a northbound main that curves around the penusla to the other side. Between the parallel parts of this track, (after it makes a 180 curve), I have the crossover tracks. With the gaps cut after the crossover section, it looks like I have a short, where the red wire on one side of X crossing is the white side on other side of crossing, if you understand what I am saying.(______X_______ (top side of curve and X are also same track. I can't draw the lines above the parenthese and X above)

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Posted by floridaflyer on Monday, December 31, 2018 3:13 PM

Picture is worth a 1000 words. Diagram would really be helpful

  • Member since
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  • From: Central Texas
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Posted by novicerr on Monday, December 31, 2018 3:18 PM

was trying to do a diagram in previous post. c======x===== is basic diagram. Imagine the dashed lines are solid track. C is 180 degree curve and X is double (or scissors) crossing. How to gap it and connect reversing unit is what I am asking about. Thanks

 

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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Monday, December 31, 2018 4:08 PM

 Like this:

c|===x===|)

where | are the gaps. There will be no short on the crossovers if you wire the main lines so that the rail towards the top is the same bus  for both lines, and the rail towards the bottom are the same bus in both tracks.

   red

======

   white

    red

======

 white

 

NOT

     red

=======

  white

  white

=======

   red

Google "dogbone dcc wiring" and select Images. The first one that I get is a picture from Azatrax that shows exactly where the gaps and what rail gets what feeder, unfortunately Google image search is the only palce you cna view it because Azatrax no longer makes the product the diagram was for.

                                      -Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, December 31, 2018 4:13 PM

 And if you have the main line feeders already connected as I listed in the NOT part - change them, it's far easier to use the autoreverser in a dogbone if you do.

 Maybe for a small trivial layout it makes little difference, but consider my plan is for a double deck layout filling my basement. At one end of the lower level is one loop of the dogbone, at the other end, after it traverses the layout area TWICE (once ont he lower level, then up the helix and around the upper level) it terminates in the other loop, closing the dogbone. For all that, I only need two reversers, one for each loop. By keeping the wiring in the right order, an combination of crosvoers and sidings can be added along the double main without needing additional reversers. I will even have a branch line or two coming off the main in palces. Unless the junction is a wye, or I put a wye at the far end of the branch - still no additional reversers.

                                           --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
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  • From: Central Texas
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Posted by novicerr on Monday, December 31, 2018 4:35 PM

Thanks again Randy and all. I think it will work the way you show, red white, red white. I don't have it permanently wired at the moment, was just drawing on paper, and had red white, white red. Will gap and all tomorrow. Track not a dog bone ( I don't think). It is continuous around the wall and goes into a penisula and curves back out to complete the run around wall. Then again, after drawing figure spread out, maybe it is dogbone LOL

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, December 31, 2018 4:46 PM

novicerr

Probably overthinking again, but, still looks like crossover will have shorts.  I have a northbound main that curves around the penusla to the other side. Between the parallel parts of this track, (after it makes a 180 curve), I have the crossover tracks. With the gaps cut after the crossover section, it looks like I have a short, where the red wire on one side of X crossing is the white side on other side of crossing, if you understand what I am saying.(______X_______ (top side of curve and X are also same track. I can't draw the lines above the parenthese and X above)

 

Re-read Randy's advice. You want to treat the end loops as reversing sections, so gap your double mains just before they enter and exit the end loops so that the loops are isolated from the double (parallel) mains. Control each loop with its own PSX-AR. Then, wire both mains, including the double crossover the same way, in phase. It seems that you are wiring the entire layout section so that the white wire is always on the outside and the red wire is always on the inside (or vice versa). You don't want to do that.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by novicerr on Monday, December 31, 2018 6:01 PM

Just to be clear, I picked a rail to be white, the other red. I have followed that rail with the same color around the layout, I just haven't wired the peninsula yet. I have run a couple of locos around the outside mainline, and also thru the inside mainline thru the peninsula (without the double crossing rails connected). I had no problems with this test. When I connected the crossover track to the turnouts, my voltage from the NCE power cab measured 7.8 volts ac, instead of the 14.1 volts ac it measured before the crossover track was connected. That was when I discovered the crossover turnouts would start at red and end in white, so was shorting. That's why I am trying to figure out how to gap and reverse the area. Hope this helps explain further.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, December 31, 2018 9:20 PM

 Yes, you have it wired as under my "DON'T" section. In the double track area, it should be that the same rail by physical location, not side of the train, has the same color. Again, if one side of the section where the crossover is is against the wall, and the other side is the aisle, fromt he aisle to the wall the track feeds should be white, the red, then white, then red. Or red, white, red, white. NOT white, red, red, white or red, white, white, red. This means that soomewhere in the middle of the loop the engineer's side of a loco goes from red to white or vice versa. That makes the turnback curve the reverse section. If on the right side of the crossover there is also a turnback curve - it is another reverse section.

                           --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    March, 2004
  • From: Central Texas
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Posted by novicerr on Wednesday, January 02, 2019 8:00 AM

Thanks Randy and all. Finally got my head on straight and changed the wiring per your instructions. Seems to be working fine now. I need another PSX a little further down the line, but think I have that one figured out.

Thanks again, Charlie

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, January 02, 2019 8:57 AM

novicerr

I need another PSX a little further down the line, but think I have that one figured out. 

A PSX, which is a circuit breaker, or a PSX-AR, which is both a circuit breaker and an auto-reverser?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by novicerr on Wednesday, January 02, 2019 11:49 AM

Sorry Rich, should have included AR, just got lazy.

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, January 02, 2019 2:38 PM

novicerr

Sorry Rich, should have included AR, just got lazy. 

Sure wish that we had a diagram of your layout, so that we could comment and advice. Are you sure that you will need a third auto-reverser?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by novicerr on Wednesday, January 02, 2019 3:26 PM

didn]t need a 3rd one, was onlyl talking about my 2nd one, which I have already. Think I got it running properly for now, after installing the second reverser.

Picture a room 20 x 11 feet. One track runs around the walls (continuous loop). The second track runs inside that one down the left side, then curves into pensula. Loops back on other side of peninsula, with double crosstrack between paralell peninsula tracks. after leaving peninsula, it follows right hand wall, and joins itself to make continuous loop.

There are turnouts (one north and one south) between the outer and inner track. This was so I could run a train on both tracks, without having to use hands to move it over.

Right now that is the basics. Do have passing tracks on both outer and inner tracks on left  side of room. No tracks are glued down yet, just using t-pins. Will glue after all is checked out.

Charlie

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Posted by Redvdub1 on Thursday, January 03, 2019 8:18 PM

If you are using Shinohara double crossovers read this

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/DoubleCrossover_Galyon.pdf

If you are using Atlas turnouts to cobble together a double crossovers google Melvin Perry's (wondeful) website.  He shows how to take Atlas TOs and cobble together a double.

Note:  It really matters whether you have a single track loop that doubles back on itself or double track loops that comes back around into the double.  The single track loop needs automatic reverser/s.  The double loop does not. 

Note:  My club operates two Shinohara old-style double crossovers...no gaps, no switch machines, and point-stock rail contact for power routing.  We did need to insulate the so-called K-crossings with JB weld on the frog siderails and we maintain point-stock rail contact pressure with hand throws (Caboose Hobbies). 

 

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Posted by Redvdub1 on Thursday, January 03, 2019 8:23 PM

The polarities of the north and south rails for the double crossovers must be fixed.  N/S, N/S.  For the single loop configuration the double x-over must be isolated from the "loops"and you need A/R switching.  Double loos just require that the upper and lower tracks of the double must be N/S, N/S and not N/S, S/N. 

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