I've just connected all the track for my ho scale ISL. I had most of it up last weekend and all was good, no stalls or losses of power. Tonight, once everything is connected, I'm losing power at a point where last week I was not. This spot is about a foot off of a turnout. I also have another point where the locomotive stalls over a turnout.
I'm running a DC power pack for the whole set-up. Track is only connected by rail joiners so far because I wanted to get a sense of what the layout would look like completed. All track is Atlast code 83 using Customline #4 and #6 turnouts. The locomotive runs across all other parts of the layout without issue.
My experience with anything electrical is minimal as this is my first adventure into the world of "layout building." I need the "kindergarten" version of what to do. Videos are helpful as I'm a visual learner. Any advice for what to do to get things back up and moving would be helpful! Thank you for any assistance!
Are you taking the track apart and reassembling it or am I reading too much into your first 2 sentences?
What locomotive that stalls do you have? Are there other locos that don't stall.
Where is a foot off the turn out, before the turnout, after the diverging route, after the straight route?
How big is your layout and how many feeders do you have to your rails?
Can we assume this is new track and locos, or has this been stored in the attic for 20 years?
Might as well tell us what power pack too.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I'd be willing to say that most model railroad power losses like yours are because you're depending on rail joiners alone to carry power from one section of track to another. Read up on using a track power bus and feeders if you want reliable track power.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley I'd be willing to say that most model railroad power losses like yours are because you're depending on rail joiners alone to carry power from one section of track to another. Read up on using a track power bus and feeders if you want reliable track power.
I would bet also that a joiner or two aint making contact
UNCLEBUTCH MisterBeasley I'd be willing to say that most model railroad power losses like yours are because you're depending on rail joiners alone to carry power from one section of track to another. Read up on using a track power bus and feeders if you want reliable track power. I would bet also that a joiner or two aint making contact
Rich
Alton Junction
All of the track and turnouts have been purchased within the last year. Rail joiners may be a bit older than that. After the turnout is where the track diverges, no loss of power going the other direction off the turnout. The power pack is a MRC tech 4 200 I believe, very basic and purchased 15+ years ago. The locomotive is an Athearn RTR GP50 purchased in December.
I don't have any feeder or bus wire as the layout is very temporary until the summer most likely. I know I should, but I'd like to get the layout operational and begin working on other aspects of the hobby before it comes down to make way for a bed or baby's room.
As I said in the first post, I had no issues with the locomotive last weekend over the same track. I did a quick check of the wheels to see if there was anything, nothing. Looked at the track itself and saw a small chip where it kept stalling, so I replaced that section of track, still stalling.
I'll check the rail joiners at the locations to see if that changes anything the stall after the turnout had been taking place in a section of flex track, not near the rail joiner. I'll look at everything again today
jk10 I'll check the rail joiners at the locations to see if that changes anything the stall after the turnout had been taking place in a section of flex track, not near the rail joiner. I'll look at everything again today
What I do to test for failed rail joiners is to find a section of track where the loco stalls and then slide the rail joiner back and forth on each end of the section of with a pair of snip nose or needle nose pliers. Often, power is restored as a result, at least temporarily until the problem is permanently fixed.
I will start with this later today. Replace if needed. Next step would be the voltage meter. Thank you, all, for the advice. Hopefully it's a quick solution.
NO!!! No need to replace joiners. You will have a hit 'n miss situation because the joiners are all pretty much the same. Pick one up, chuck it, take up another, and they are pretty much identical. It's the mechanical connection you want from joiners, NOT the probability of reliable electrical connectivity over the gaps between lengths of rails. That is why we learn, all of us eventually, that when you have a new or well maintained locomotive that suddenly starts to stall just past a gap, you have a bad electrical connection at one of the two joiners just crossed.
What we do is to either clean the rail ends, or very carefully slightly crimp the joiner to get better contact, or simply solder the entire joiner into place...which makes the joint fully reliable both mechanically and electrically.
You don't want to solder temporary track? Sounds perfectly sensible to me. Then figure out how to improve the joiner's performance. It may be the answer to try another, but it will be a crap shoot if the ends of the rails don't want to be in the alignment you are imposing on them at that joint. If the first joiner is being splayed, and losing contact, the next one is likely to suffer the same fate after 20 minutes, an hour, a week...
Realign the joint, crimp the joiners gently in place, or solder and learn how to use a wick to take up the solder when you need to separate the rails again.
Would the turnout happen to be Atlas? I've had problems with some of those not passing current from one end to the other. I've had one Atlas turnout kill power to a whole siding!
Mike C.
New rail joiners are always better than used ones because they are tight. Used ones get bent out of shape and become loose. Make sure all of your rail joiners are tight. Wiggle the track around at the places where you lose power. If the track suddenly starts to work you have found the problem. Either replace the rail joiners with new ones or use pliers to squeeze them until they are tight. You probably only have the power connected to your track at one point per block, or maybe even one point for the whole layout if you are not using the block system. Either way you should have more power connections to help avoid this problem. You can buy rail joiners with wire soldiered onto them or you can do like I do and soldier wire onto them yourself. I do it at the workbench because it is easier. I cut wire into six inch long pieces and them soldier it. I hope this helps.
I believe I got one of the spots figured out. Replaced and crimped rail joiners snug. Seems to have done the trick. Now, the other spot which occurs off straight section of an Atlas Customline #4 turnout is still stalling the locomotive. I've tried replacing rail joiners at each end of the turnout, crimping them snug each time. Tried different track, too. Still have the loss of power problem.
You definitely need to get a meter or a bulb and see if the turnout is letting voltage through. Those things can have an "internal" problem that you can't find or fix from the outside.
wobblinwheel Would the turnout happen to be Atlas? I've had problems with some of those not passing current from one end to the other. I've had one Atlas turnout kill power to a whole siding!
Atlas turnouts are not power routing, so it is easy to test continuity with an ohm meter. Place the two probes at each end of a rail and see if any rail fails the continuity test.
jk10 I will start with this later today. Replace if needed. Next step would be the voltage meter. Thank you, all, for the advice. Hopefully it's a quick solution.
With the power on and the loco stalled, take a piece of solid wire and touch one end of the wire to the rail of one section of track and touch the other end of the wire to the adjacent rail of the other section of track so that the wire is bypassing the rail joiner. If power is restored and the loco starts moving again, you have found a faulty rail joiner, If power is not restored, move the wire to the other rail and keep doing it until you find the faulty rail joiner.
Pick Yourself up these in link to go along with Richhotrains suggestion. Good to have for all Your testing purpose's:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/IIT-10pc-Test-Leads-Set-Circuit-Tester-Jumper-Leads-Alligator-Clips-Tools-26110/781136156?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=6334&adid=22222222227135490342&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=244157442869&wl4=pla-400945063331&wl5=9021618&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=115062448&wl11=online&wl12=781136156&wl13=&veh=sem
Take Care!
Frank
Rich, over the years I've actually had several Atlas turnouts lose contact through the rails. I wish I could be specific on the correct terminology to describe the particular rail that goes "dead", but this has happened on about a half dozen of my #4 and #6 turnouts. They are all over ten years old. There is a STATIONARY rail that adjoins one of the movable rails that loses contact under the rails. I have had over the years installed springy wire "jumpers" to get power to and through the dead spots. It seems, years ago, I contacted Atlas and a fellow there (I think his name was Paul) offered to replace ALL of my bad turnouts as soon as he got them in stock. I found it much easier to fix them, rather than to replace them, as all of my joiners are soldered, and some have powered frogs with a "snap relay" installed. Too much of a pain in the ****! At one time, they knew they had a problem....
I assume you must mean the closure rail. It's impossible for the storck rail to go dead as it's one solid piece of rail from one end of the turnout to the other. The closure rail gets power in two ways - the first is the bit of metal under the stock rail that also forms the hing point for the moveable point rail, and the second is the opposite end of the turnout, as those rails are continuous under the frog.
This is why I always put feeders on all three legs of mine. The only thing that could possibly go dead with power fed from all 3 sides are the point rails themselves, but if the contact at the pivot should fail under the stock rail, I still have power coming in and the point rail may well still have power. Do this and the only possible place where a jumper might be needed for added reliability is around the pivot point for the point rails.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I didn't get to check anything today, but I'm leaning towards something wrong with the turnout. I switched multiple rail joiners to no relief. I used the same rail joiners with different sections of track, without the turnout, and everything worked. That leads me to believe it is the turnout. I was going to try and clean the contact points/end of the rail to see if that would help. It's an Atlas Customline #4 left. The point where it stalls is the straight section or right track after the track splits.
I need to dig through my electrical supplies to find the voltage tester. That'll be next weekend's project.
Before you start replacing track components - add some extra feeders on the opposite side of the turnout.. Two wires to the tracks is NEVER enough, expecially with sectional track and unsoldered rail joiners.
rrinker Before you start replacing track components - add some extra feeders on the opposite side of the turnout.. Two wires to the tracks is NEVER enough, expecially with sectional track and unsoldered rail joiners. --Randy
The only thing with that, this layout is very temporary, maybe only 2-4 months before I'll either have to move it or take it down to make way for the possible expansion of our family. My hope was a quick and easy fix without diggin tok deep into the electrical. I know I'll need to eventually, especially if I'd like to get into DCC at some stage. Without adding feeders and checking rail joiners, what could my next step be?
I would definitely try a jumper of some sort to bypass the turnout. You need to be sure...
When I was a kid we never head room for a permanent layout. We set it up basiclly for the month of December. That layout had at least 10 blocks, with the switches to control them, plus used 3 power packs, each for one of the looops. Plus all of the structures on the layout had lights, and there were other operating accessories like the cable cars to the top of the mountain. This was hooked up then broken down every time, remaining operational for a month. So I would just wire it properly and enjoy trouble free operation for the months you have. What I did on my last two layouts was make EVERY rail joiner a terminal joiner - just sodler wires to the joiners, don;t overpay for the premade ones. With a sectional track layout that's probably overkill, you probably have more joiners in a 4x8 then I did in an around the room 13x15 layout.
Slight electrical improvemtn could be done by perhaps soldering alternate joiners at eash joint. For example, where two pieces of track joine, solder the joiner to the bottom rail or the track on the left, and the top rail of the track ont he right. The two pieces then still just slide apart, but only one joint per rail is sliding and potnetially a problem - tighten the sliding side of the joiners down good and it should be a fairly reliable connection. Be consistent with which side has a soldered joiner and the track will all be interchangeable - for example every piece of track would have a soldered joiner on the bottom rail on its right side, and its top rail on the left. Flip that piece of track end for end and it still has a joiner on the bottom on the right, and top on the left. For long straight runs, if the track isn;t fastened down, use a piece of flex track. The fewer joints, the better. If it isn;t fastened down - fasnten the track down. Movement as the trains run over will work the joiners lose and cause electrical problems. A few track nails will hold things in place and are easy enough to pull out when it's time to take it apart.
I have four of the Harbor Freight meters. They cost me about two dollars a piece some years ago.
http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_Workshop/index.htm
They read about 13.6 vac with my NCE Power Cab when I went to DCC. I was told they are not very accurate. Go figure.
If to lazy to learn how to use a meter, get an ice pick tester. Old timers used these back many years ago for working on car electrical. I remember my dad using one on his 1943 Buick Roadmaster around 1950.
https://www.amazon.com/Professional-6-12V-Circuit-Tester-Industrial/dp/B003UHNMMS/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_263_bs_tr_img_1/144-9266092-7684105?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=390HBDW4YMNACJBK48E7
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
jk10 The only thing with that, this layout is very temporary, maybe only 2-4 months before I'll either have to move it or take it down to make way for the possible expansion of our family. My hope was a quick and easy fix without diggin tok deep into the electrical. I know I'll need to eventually, especially if I'd like to get into DCC at some stage. Without adding feeders and checking rail joiners, what could my next step be?
Chances are that it is not the turnout. I say this because you have indicated in your opening post that there is more than one turnout in question.
jk10 Tonight, once everything is connected, I'm losing power at a point where last week I was not. This spot is about a foot off of a turnout. I also have another point where the locomotive stalls over a turnout.
Tonight, once everything is connected, I'm losing power at a point where last week I was not. This spot is about a foot off of a turnout. I also have another point where the locomotive stalls over a turnout.
That further convinces me that it is a need for more feeders or tighter rail joiners.
Jk10,
Seeing as how You are reluctant to add feeders, (in Your case I can understand why) there is electrically conductive paint on the market that may work for You around Your problem rail joiners. I've never used it, but have heard that it does work. It is not as pricey as some out there. Might be worth a try in Your circumstance:
https://semicro.org/products/carbon-paint-conductive?gclid=CjwKCAiA_c7UBRAjEiwApCZi8SK5cgW8E26QtjpuukJou4x076JGpJYLehWjZaw5LcT2xZ-ikrDXFxoC6mwQAvD_BwE
Good Luck!