Hello Everyone,
After spending about 10 hours isolating track and still getting shorts during my learn and experiment stage I have learned I need to add an Auto Reverser to each crossing route that makes the “X” in the center of my figure 8 inside my Oval.
There are four Peco Turnouts andoneAtlas 45 degree crossing in the set up.
Route 1 of the which goes from the Turnout at the the top left of the Oval through the 45 degree crossing and down to the turnout at the bottom right. If I read the Digitrax AR1 instruction correctly I should isolate the connections on the two Turnouts on the divergent route entering and exiting the route going through the crossing top left to bottom right. With the AR1 near the top left turnout I run a track wire from the AR1 to the mainline before the approaching turnout and I run the Auto Reverse wires to the track that makes up the branch of the ”x” associated with it past the isolated divergent part of the turnout.
I would mirrior this with a second AR1 for Route 2 of the “X”, the route that goes from the turnout at the top right through the 45 degree crossing down to the bottom left turnout on the Oval.
Iam asking this because it is not a closed reverse loop but rather a crossing reversing routes with the 45 degree crossing.
Am I Wiring this correctly?
I have a drawing, just need to resize It and attach a link. I will do it if necessary.
northeast_train_guy_1965I have a drawing, just need to resize It and attach a link. I will do it if necessary.
According to model railroader Allen Greenspan: " “ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”
In other words, pictures help alot.
You shouldn't have to resize any pictures on this forum, but posting pics is tricky. There is a sticky on how to do it in the General Forum. Linking to google, facebook, dropbox or dragging and dropping, do not work.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Yup, read the sticky. I just need to upload my photo to a link on one of my websites. Need to do it from my computer, don’t have web and ftp software on my iPad.
Imgur.com is my current favorite. If you ever heard of photobucket, erase it from your memory.
I'm not the guy to answer your question, but I'm interested in seeing what the gurus say about the crossing. (assuming I am reading your question correctly). Sooner or later I will have a similar question.
This is my favorite site about reversing sections. What can be interesting is that there can be more than one option for a situation.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c4
But folks here will offer specific solutions if you can post a diagram.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
peahrens This is my favorite site about reversing sections. What can be interesting is that there can be more than one option for a situation. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c4 But folks here will offer specific solutions if you can post a diagram.
This site answered my question. The “balloon” route diagram explains how I need to insulate the track. Now all I need to do is see how the 45 degree crossing affects everything, but as U understand it the crossing is insulated so there should be no problems with it.
My HO Atlas crossings, which I presume are typical, have jumpers that provide continuity to each rail in a given direction, and the other route is totally independent. You can test that by checking resistance between the rail segments with an ohm meter.
It's much like one route were 4" above, or below, the other. Completely separate electrically, just physically crossing each other without touching electrically. You will note insulators that keep the intersecting rails from touching.
Are we talking about this type of track configuration?
If this is the configuration, you have some options and you should be able to isolate the reversing section with just one AR-1.
What are the dimensions involved here and how long are the straight segments of the figure 8?
Rich
Alton Junction
What Paul said is a great way to visualize the Atlas crossing. 2 completely different tracks stacked above one another, as if they don't even touch.
Unless your Atlas crossing is from the 50's or something, it will be made this way. The completely insulated versions have been around a LONG time now.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
richhotrain Are we talking about this type of track configuration? If this is the configuration, you have some options and you should be able to isolate the reversing section with just one AR-1. What are the dimensions involved here and how long are the straight segments of the figure 8? Rich
Yes, exactly! I am trying to verify where to place the insulated joints on the Turnouts and where to place my two Digitrax AR1 unitS before I start drilling holes and getting under the table with my bad back.
How long are the trains you plan to run, and are there any other tracks besides those shown?
In general, it's bad practice to have longer trains than the crossover sections. In general, it will mostly work, but you can run into problems if you have a lighted caboose or passenger coach at the end of the train, because the autoreverser will be trying to match polarity at both ends of the reversing section, and it can't do that.
Autoreversers generally have less power capacity than your DCC base station or circuit breaker, so you might want to avoid putting things like a large yard or turntable inside the reversing section. If you do put a turntable in a reversing section, make sure it automatically reverses polarity itself and does not require its own autoreverser. Daisy-chaining two autoreversers is a no-no, because they'll end up fighting each other to make polarity flips.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
northeast_train_guy_1965 richhotrain Are we talking about this type of track configuration? If this is the configuration, you have some options and you should be able to isolate the reversing section with just one AR-1. What are the dimensions involved here and how long are the straight segments of the figure 8? Rich Yes, exactly! I am trying to verify where to place the insulated joints on the Turnouts and where to place my two Digitrax AR1 unitS before I start drilling holes and getting under the table with my bad back.
MisterBeasley How long are the trains you plan to run, and are there any other tracks besides those shown?
richhotrain MisterBeasley How long are the trains you plan to run, and are there any other tracks besides those shown? And...how many trains will be running around that oval and through the figure 8 at the same time? Rich
And...how many trains will be running around that oval and through the figure 8 at the same time?
One train around the Oval.
Figure 8 straights are six feet, three feet on each side of the crossing.
My longest consist will fit in a five foot section.
Also, when installing an auto reverser one set of track leads goes to the mainline Oval, the other set goes to the reversing section. Do/Can any other track power leads go to the reversing section?
One more question, or actually clarification.
Are you saying that you will never run more than one train at a time on that entire track configuration as drawn?
All power to a reversing section has to go thru the reverser.
northeast_train_guy_1965 Also, when installing an auto reverser one set of track leads goes to the mainline Oval, the other set goes to the reversing section. Do/Can any other track power leads go to the reversing section?
richhotrain One more question, or actually clarification. Are you saying that you will never run more than one train at a time on that entire track configuration as drawn? Rich
There is an outside Oval, 22 degree radius. The inside Oval is at 20 degree radius and is accessed by a double crossover from the outer oval. The ovals both have their own Bus wire and are isolated from each other.
So, I will probably run more than one train, possibly three. One orbiting the outer Oval while the train on the inner Oval goes through operations making deliveries and pick ups along the straights of the Figure 8.
There is also a separate Freight/staging yard off the outside Oval which will have an isolated engine yard and Coach yard. A Switcher will run these operations With maybe a second Switcher on the inside loop Figure 8 .
I have had pretty good success with DCC, but didn’t understand the basics of a reverse loop. I am sure it will take some tweaking to finalize it all.
richhotrain northeast_train_guy_1965 Also, when installing an auto reverser one set of track leads goes to the mainline Oval, the other set goes to the reversing section. Do/Can any other track power leads go to the reversing section? When wiring a reversing section, power to the input side of the auto-reverser comes from the main bus. Any and all feeder wires from inside the reversing section connect to the output side of the auto-reverser. All feeder wires from the non-reversing section connect to the main bus, never to the auto-reverser. Rich
When wiring a reversing section, power to the input side of the auto-reverser comes from the main bus. Any and all feeder wires from inside the reversing section connect to the output side of the auto-reverser. All feeder wires from the non-reversing section connect to the main bus, never to the auto-reverser.
What Rich says. There has to be a commonality that is reversed only in the case of the track...the isolated track...that is to be reversed. Think of the reversal as a 'correction' that takes place as soon as the first metal tire crosses the gap/insulator. If the isolated section, the one that gets 'reversed', is out of phase with the section on which the metal tire is currently running, the bridging will cause a short. It will only be a briefest of shorts because of the sensitivity of the auto-reverser.
What this means then, this larger commonality, is that the bus must provide the reference point against which the reverser makes its decision. Therefore, the standard must be 'input' to the reverser, meaning it must get its input of referencing phase from the bus.
northeast_train_guy_1965 richhotrain One more question, or actually clarification. Are you saying that you will never run more than one train at a time on that entire track configuration as drawn? Rich There is an outside Oval, 22 degree radius. The inside Oval is at 20 degree radius and is accessed by a double crossover from the outer oval. The ovals both have their own Bus wire and are isolated from each other. So, I will probably run more than one train, possibly three. One orbiting the outer Oval while the train on the inner Oval goes through operations making deliveries and pick ups along the straights of the Figure 8. There is also a separate Freight/staging yard off the outside Oval which will have an isolated engine yard and Coach yard. A Switcher will run these operations With maybe a second Switcher on the inside loop Figure 8. I have had pretty good success with DCC, but didn’t understand the basics of a reverse loop. I am sure it will take some tweaking to finalize it all.
There is also a separate Freight/staging yard off the outside Oval which will have an isolated engine yard and Coach yard. A Switcher will run these operations With maybe a second Switcher on the inside loop Figure 8.
Let's start with this. I have developed a two-rail diagram for your review, one rail colored red and one rail covered blue. Using that wiring protocol, you can isolate the figure 8 and use only one auto-reverser to control it.
As this two-rail diagram is drawn, there are two points of reverse polarity on the left side of the diagram. The black dots are insulated rail joiners. The black dots (insulated rail joiners) on the right side of the track diagram represent the remaining gaps necessary to isolate the reversing section.
BigDaddyIn other words, pictures help alot.
Do I use one auto reverser and connectthe two track feeds with a parallel power strip and the two reverser feeds with another parrellel power strip or do I use two auto reversers?
Also, do the insulators upper left and lower right get paired to the same circuit and lower left and upper right on another circuit?
I am asking because I read one person stated only one auto reverser per lfigure 8 and an article I read stated two auto reversers, one for each crossing section.
northeast_train_guy_1965 Do I use one auto reverser and connect the two track feeds with a parallel power strip and the two reverser feeds with another parrellel power strip or do I use two auto reversers? Also, do the insulators upper left and lower right get paired to the same circuit and lower left and upper right on another circuit? I am asking because I read one person stated only one auto reverser per lfigure 8 and an article I read stated two auto reversers, one for each crossing section.
Do I use one auto reverser and connect the two track feeds with a parallel power strip and the two reverser feeds with another parrellel power strip or do I use two auto reversers?
In my diagram, one auto-reverser is all that is necessary because only one reversing section would be created. You would never use more than one auto-reverser to control a reversing section.
The four pairs of black dots in my diagram represent "gaps", either plastic rail joiners or physical cuts in the rail to disrupt electrical connectivity. By placing those four pairs of gaps, the figure 8 would be completely isolated from the rest of the layout. The figure 8 becomes the reversing section.
When wiring this track configuration, power comes from the main bus and connects to the input side of the AR-1. You can place as many feeders as you want inside the reversing section, but all of those feeders should connect to the output side of the AR-1, not back to the main bus. Any feeders outside of the reversing section should be connected to the main bus, not to the AR-1.
Forget about parallel power strips. There is no need for them.
As far as "insulators" are concerned, remember, those black dots represent "gaps". Plastic rail joiners are often called insulators. If you cut physical gaps through the rails, you could fill those gaps with epoxy or styrene strips, or some thing, to provide insulators.
Here is the wiring protocol that I am suggesting.
Be sure to follow the color coding so that you don't create a short by cross-wiring.
Please forgive the spaghetti-like mess.
That is how my underlayout wiring looks.
richhotrain Here is the wiring protocol that I am suggesting. Be sure to follow the color coding so that you don't create a short by cross-wiring. Please forgive the spaghetti-like mess. That is how my underlayout wiring looks. Rich
Thanks Rich for all the help. Very much appreciate. I received quite the DCC education in the thread and everything worked out well.
Glad to hear that you are up and running. Congrats.
Okay, I am sure it is in a thread but when I search for Double Crossover DCC Wiring all I find is threads on the prebuilt Walthers or Shonia Double Crossovers.
Can someone point me to a thread or recourse on how to DCC WIre a Double crossovers using four #6 Atlas Turnouts and an Atlas 19 Degree Crossing?
I did not want to start are new thread and I have spent considerable time searching for this info. A push in the right direction would be much appreciated.
northeast_train_guy_1965 Okay, I am sure it is in a thread but when I search for Double Crossover DCC Wiring all I find is threads on the prebuilt Walthers or Shonia Double Crossovers. Can someone point me to a thread or recourse on how to DCC WIre a Double crossovers using four #6 Atlas Turnouts and an Atlas 19 Degree Crossing? I did not want to start are new thread and I have spent considerable time searching for this info. A push in the right direction would be much appreciated.
ThanksRich. When I looked at it I was thinking the same thing, but it just seemed to easy so I thought I was missing something.
Track A and Track B both have the same polarity. Outside rail is blue, inside rail is red on both track if I were to draw a diagram. My single crossovers worked fine, I just decided to make them a double crossover.
northeast_train_guy_1965 ThanksRich. When I looked at it I was thinking the same thing, but it just seemed to easy so I thought I was missing something. Track A and Track B both have the same polarity. Outside rail is blue, inside rail is red on both track if I were to draw a diagram. My single crossovers worked fine, I just decided to make them a double crossover.