Just thought I would chronical my experience with sound decoders and programming over the last 6 years, both in factory installed decoders and self installed. All in HO scale. These are my opinions based on my experience. As they say Your Mileage My Vary.
Some background: About 18 mos ago I discovered JMRI and DecoderPro. Highly recommend this free software. It will make programming and keeping track of your loco roster way easier. I also use Engine Driver - an Android Wifi throttle which combined with JMRI provides a custom throttle for each engine with labeled function buttons! So instead of trying to memorize 10 or more function keys for each loco in your roster, you can label the function buttons on the Engine Driver throttle with English names! "Mars Lt", "Coupler", etc. I now use my Android phone as my primary throttle. And I have 4 older surplus Android phones as additional throttle for guest.
I also use JMRI's PanelPro to create custom switch board layouts to control my hidden yard track turnouts. These I operate on several inexpensive Android tablets.
About 6 months ago I picked up a Sprog3 DCC device. I use it on my workbench to program decoders and to test loco functions and operations. The Sprog3 will read and write CV values at least 10 times faster than my MRC Prodigy DCC system. I have yet to find a decoder which it will not read flawlessly. Highly recommended!
Now to sound decoders, I started out on the inexpensive end with MRC decoders - 1800, 1634, 1730 and my one steam decoder - a 1731. A total of 8 installs. I know, MRC receives a lot of hate, but for the money I have been satisfied. I have only had one go bad and got it replaced by MRC. Sound is adequate provided a reasonable speaker is used. If space allows, I get good results with the MRC 28mm round speakers. However the MRC's functions and programming are limited. Biggest disadvantage in my book is the lack of ability to reprogram function keys. But at sale prices around $35 to $45, they have served me well. One complaint I have on a recent install of a MRC 1730 decoder is that despite having a number of horns available in the decoder - which you can play with the F19 - Horn Type function key, there is no way to make those horns stick or program with a CV value. So the alternate horn sounds are in the chip, but only the default horn can be played with the F2 key. I contacted MRC about this and was told that was the way it is. Not very helpful.
I then started acquiring some locos with factory install decoders. My first was a Broadway Limited Alco RSD-15. Wow! Great, realistic sound and lots of cool functions, like radio communications. BWL brands their sound decoders as Paragon 2. Highly recommended, although not cheap. I would rate this a 9.5 on a 1 to 10 scale. I have since purchased a BWL SW1500 - nice sound for such a small loco.
Then I purchased an Atlas Alco HH660 with a QSI sound decoder. Another great sounding sound decoder, especially for the small size. It's one of my three favorites. Rate this a 9.5.
Then I purchased a set of F3A/B from MTH. They sound very good with a lot of programming flexibility and functions. Rate these an 8.5. I also picked up an MTH GP38-2 and it performs very well - also an 8.5.
Next I picked up an Athearns SD40R with a factory installed Tsunami Diesel Genesis OEM decoder. Well, not very impressed, especially based on the Tsunami and Athearns reputation. The sound is mediocre - no better than the MRC by my ear. No actually worse. And the OEM decoder is severely limited in functions. Less than MRC! I don't know why Athearns and Tsunami would do this - just to save a couple of bucks. It would maybe make a difference if the prices for the factory sound locos were less than the best, but they are not. Rating - 4.0. I thought maybe I had missed something and picked up another Athearn - this time a Genesis SD40M-2 with Tsunami OEM. Same thing - uninspiring. Rating 4.0. And both of these loco use dim incandescent bulbs instead of LED's. What are you thinking Athearns? I have not tried a full featured Tsnunami decoder yet. Maybe Athearns hobbled these two locos with inadequate speakers. I don't know, but I am not impressed at all. No more factory sound Athearns locos for me.
I then bought an Atlas Gold GP40-2 with factory installed ESU LokSound Select EMD 645E decoder. Another Wow! Lots of functions and flexibility and great sound. Very realistic with good fidelity. Rating 9.5. This was my clue to look into ESU LokSound for some of my yet to be converted locos.
I then turned back to my collection of P2K, Atlas, Kato and Stewart DC locos which I have been collecting over the years. I wanted to try a couple of sound installs in switchers - my first was on a P2K S3 loco which ran very well on DC. I chose a LokSound Select micro decoder and used a Loksound 50321 11x15mm speaker. It was a challenging install, helped by a YouTube video of a similar install. It turned out great. The sound coming from this speaker, what I believe is a cell phone speaker, is really incredible. I used a single baffle enclose. The speaker comes with a 4 part enclosure allowing you to use the largest size enclosure which will fit your applications. Very flexible, and even with the smallest size enclosure in the kit, it sounds great. This is now my favorite loco. The speed control is great. The sound is very realistic. Especially when running and then setting the throttle to min, the sound immediately goes into an idle while the loco coasts to a stop. It also revs up a bit before moving from a stop - realistically. My rating - 10.0. My new benchmark. I just received another of these micro Select decoders, which will go into an Atlas S3 with the same 11x15 speaker. I should add, another advantage of the Loksound decoders is that with a purchase of their programming device, these can be reprogrammed with any of the sound files available from LokSound. I have not taken that step yet, but can see it in my future.
What's next? I have recently purchased a TCS WowSound WDK-ATL-1 kit to install in an Atlas RS4 loco. I will report on that install once I complete it.
So here is my ranking based on sound quality and functionality: LokSound, followed closely by QSI and BWL Paragon 2. Then MTH PS3. Down a ways is MRC followed by Tsunami factory installed.
Again, I know many people rave about Tsunami, but from my experience with Athearn factory installed locos, they have not failed to uphold that reputation.
BTW, I worked for the Southern Pacific as a brakeman while going to school in the late 60's. Wish I had some recordings of the various switchers, and Geeps I worked on.
I hope this will help some with their decoder selection. Please share your experiences, especially if they have differed from mine.
Doug
Doug, that is interesting experience.
I started my 2012 re-entry to the hobby with a 5x9 layout build. I decided on a 5A NCE Powerhouse Pro system. I bought a Genesis Tsunami DCC/sound GP-9 as my engine to test track and learn DCC. Ok at that point, nothing to compare with.
I added several factory installed sound locos after that. From BLI, I bought a Paragon (QSI) Mountain and Paragon Mikado, and Paragon 2 SD-9, SD-40-2 and NW-2. Not sure what decoder in all of them. I had a few issues with them but was generally satisfied. The Mikado had to go back for an issue about the chuff sensor. The SD-40-2 was hard for me to consist with some other decoder locos, tending to delay moving with initial throttle increase, not a momentum setting however. The sounds on these are generally ok.
Not diesel, I wanted UP steam and added Genesis sound Challenger, Big Boy and FEF-3. I had read about problems with earlier MRC decoders in the Genesis steamers, so I ensured I got the 2012+ Tsunami versions. I am generally happy enough with them. They each have two larger speakers in the large tenders, which no doubt helps. The FEF3, however, will be getting a LokSound Select at the loco # is the 844, and ESU made a new recording of it last year (available in newest Genesis FEFs) and I've just gotta put the 844 real sounds, current recording quality into the model. Maybe see if a speaker upgrade is feasible.
Getting back to the 2012 (not the newer versions) Tsunami GP-9, I eventually decided that the sound was not great, especially the horn. Since the loco tended (more than any others) to have sound interruptions at a couple of my imperfect track spots, I eventually decided to add a Keep Alive type (actually a standard capacitor) device. Having to get into it, I decided to replace the decoder with a LokSound Select, and to change the oval speaker with a pair of micro speakers in a homemade styrene enclosure. That was a big improvement, and got me moving toward Selects as my go to decoder. Good motor control, good sounds, many available sounds, real startup/shutdown sequences (vs. sound when power is available or not until the throttle is advanced), etc.
I purchased an unused P2K E-6 with QSI decoder and dual 1" or so speakers (they do not have enclosures). I later bought a DC mate and added a Select and dual 1.1" HiBass enclosed speakers. The LokSound setup was better but I lived with the difference for awhile. But the QSI had exhibited some strange starting movement behaviors, and I want the dual prime mover effect, so I added a Select to it, leaving the QSI speakers.
I then converted DC versions of Kato RS-2s and C44-9Ws, P2K PAs, Erie Builts, SD-7, SD-56/60, Atlas RS-1, etc., using Select decoders and micro speakers. I enjoy the startup sequence of many of the locos, including the Erie Builts where randomly a startup includes a failed start, followed by a successful start sequence. The RS-2s got dual 13x18 micros (they fit crossways in HO long hoods) with admittedly tiny enclosures, and others like the C44-9Ws SD-56/60s got quad micros (then at $2 each, why not?). Those are fun for sure. I'll add my video of the C44-9Ws:
On speakers, someone here recommended a few years ago the 13x18mm Knowles Grand, from DigiKey and others. They are now discontinued. But I discovered some teriffic comparison info on micro (and other) speakers by Larry Hanlon at the LokSound Yahoo User Group site. That info really assisted my selections. IMHO that info (in the "Files" section) is worth a look for micro speaker selection (not just for LokSound users). One interesting item was a comparison of a micro with the typical narrow oval often found in narrow hood diesels, for instance. And there is a rather large Tang Bend rectangular module (speaker plus passive radiator) that can fit in mid to large HO tenders that is most interesting. I find it interesting to pursue such info, often rather scattered.
Back to locos and decoders, I bought some Bachmann Consolidations where I added Tsunami's (light steam?) and 1.1" HiBass speaker. They are ok. If doing again I would use a Select and 2-3 micro speakers. I bought a Sound Value Mogul and would not buy another one (unless latest versions fixed the issue) as I could not negate the sound kickoff with track powering up, for me very annoying. I changed it to a Select just to solve that, an $82 fix, not cheap. So adding a Select is a quality and cost decision. (The Selects are not as high as the V4s). Thus, the purchase of a DC loco means a commitment to about $90-95 for decoder and speakers, plus a Keep Alive type capacitor set if needed (about 10% of my locos).
I've also done an older Walthers gas electric (where will I ever get a replacement drive O-ring of the right size?), a Bachmann doodlebug (adding a NWSL Stanton drive), Proto Heritage 0-8-0 and 2-8-8-2 (nice locos), an IHC camelback, and have an IHC Pacific up next. And Santa has a DC Atheran Veranda turbine in the closet.
I do find the variation in BEMF performance significant between decoders. I did some tweaking (per a procedure) with some Tsunamis, often useful for better slowest speed tuning. But as most report, the Selects usually work fine out of the box, on usual motor types. There's also an auto BEMF procedure by pressing a couple of buttons, which the doodlebug Stanton drive sorely needed. And one also can play with the various CVs, but I have not found that to add much.
I did get into using Decoder Pro and liked it for setting up a new decoder, including turning off DC analog more simply than dealing with the combo CV29 calculation to do that. But I have not kept my roster organized nor current, maybe some day. I do keep a folder for each loco with current notes, so if I change a setting I just update the notes. I later added a LokProgrammer for a couple of reasons. A big driver was the ability to load an updated sound file. The E-units are an example, since the dual prime mover file update occurred after my decoders were installed, so I could download and install the new file. Another reason for the LokProgrammer was it allows me to buy the "generic" Select rather than have to find the right sound file decoder on modeltrainstuff.com and/or wait for Tony's or another to load the file I want, so it's faster. (I now keep a 6AUX and Micro on hand so I can load a file and go right away with a newly received loco project).
When I added the LokProgrammer, I also included a PTB-100 program track booster. I forget when it is needed (with my NCE ProCab) to allow reading from the program track, maybe for reading CVs from the throttle, but it's there. I will note that the LokSound indexed CVs have some issues about reading/writing from the program track with my NCE Powerhouse Pro, so it is necessary to either use Decoder Pro, LokProgrammer or Program On Main (using the throttle) to deal with that, easy enough when aware of it.
I have noted the the TCS WowSounds seem to get rather favorable comments, like LokSounds, for both motor control and sounds. And they often have the right components (decoder, speaker, capacitor) needed to fit the configuration of a given loco. But I am reluctant to get into another brand, unless perhaps where TCS has the right sound file but LokSound does not.
I've enjoyed the conversion of DC locos to DCC/sound a bit too much, as it has slowed layout work (scenery completion, etc.).
Just my experience. Interesting, fun and rewarding.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
SPDougSo here is my ranking based on sound quality and functionality: LokSound, followed closely by QSI and BWL Paragon 2.
Hi Doug!
Thank you for taking the time to document your experiences with various sound decoders and speakers. I'm sure a lot of people will benefit from your input.
Personally, I settled on Loksound Selects a long time ago. When I was first experimenting with sound decoders I bought just about every brand on the market. None of them worked nearly as well as the Loksound Selects. I have a couple of F7s equipped with QSI stereo decoders. While they sound great, they are also a PITA to operate! Who needs three levels of shut down?!? Who needs a decoder that takes forever to respond to CV changes? Loksound sound control is F8 period, sound on or sound off, and I really like the fact that the Loksound decoders don't automatically start making noise when they get power. That is a really simple concept that most other decoder manufacturers seem to have missed totally.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Thanks for that informative summary, Doug.
Your experiences pretty much mimic mine. I have been a JMRI user for maybe six or seven years and it is certainly a blessing. I also use a Sprogg in the workshop and have all my Decoder Pro rosters saved to Dropbox so that everything I change at the layout or in the shop gets immediately saved and can be accessed everywhere.
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/setup/Dropbox.shtml
I only have a few MRC decoders, one in my early Rapido Turbotrain (it works OK) and others in some Con-Cor PRR MP54s (those give me trouble and will be replaced with Loksound soon).
Just tonight I was playing with a pair of Atlas Gold RS-3s with factory Loksound Selects and I upgraded them to Full Throttle . To me that one feature, to be able to upgrade firmware and change sound projects gives ESU a huge advantage.
Earlier, I did the Full Throttle magic on an A-B-A set of B&O E-8/9s. Tonight I tweaked them so that the prime-movers are just slightly out of synch. I WAS getting an odd harmonic (there are six prime movers involved here) So I set one A units PM sound slightly slower and the other A unit slightly faster and that completely eliminated the harmonic and, along with the Drive Hold of the Full Throttle, those E's sound exactly like the engines I remember hearing oh so many years ago. Each sound slot has a minimum and maximum playback speed, default is 128. Simply set one "slightly" higher and the other "slightly" lower and you're done. One or two numbers up or down is all it takes.
Not long ago the Full Throttle steam sound projects were made available. I downloaded these into a couple of my steam engines and they're pretty good. Not great, mind you, but getting there. I guess Matt is working on some "fresh" steam recordings.
I even shifted around a couple of functions successfully. That was a new experience for me and now that I see how it is done in the Lokprogrammer, I'll be doing more.
I agree with your asessment of the Tsunami sound. Early on they were tops in the steam sound field. Diesel, not so much. (Took them forever to finally make the diesel decoder available) I did stick my neck out and give them another try on a recent pair of Amtrak SDP-40Fs and these don't sound all that bad with the Tsunami II. You can hear the horns, at least.
I also have maybe two-dozen or so TCS Wowsound decoders. I like them but... they are just, different. The steam decoders are pretty good but I just can't get the hang of the diesel ones, and that switching between "light mode" and "sound mode" seems awkward.
I see Walthers upcoming release of E-8s will feature Loksound Selects. All of my Rapido locomotives (except the Turbotrain) are Loksound
Matt Herman is to be commended for his outstanding work in the North American market for ESU.
Thank You,
Ed
Thanks for the post.
Its nice to see somebody other than me rate QSI sound decoders quite highly. They got ran out of the market by so many critics. I don't get it. The OEM QSI Titan installed locos are my favorite sound decoder equipped loco, but are no longer on the market.
BTW Doug, I noticed your criticism of Athearn was by a limited sample of only SD40s. Keep in mind these are turbocharged EMD prime movers. Tsunami is one brand that does turbocharged EMD products poorly, IMO.
You might find Tsunami's replication of other prime movers more appealing.
- Douglas
I wanted to follow up with my previous post, and to thank those who replied.
Since I wrote the report I have installed a couple of Wow Sound by TCS WDK-ATL-1 decoder kits into Atlas (Kato) RSD5's. They were marked as Version 4. The kit is specifically for Atlas Alco RS-3, RSD 4 & 5 and Alco C424/5's locos. The kit includes a speaker and enclosure which takes the place of one of the weights over one of the trucks. I went ahead and used that speaker, but was not real happy with the sound - a bit soft and distant, and by eliminating one of the weights, it hampered this loco’s ability to pull cars out of my staging yard up the helix to the upper layout. So, I took out the speaker and enclosure and replaced it with the original weight, but had to machine a space in the weight to install one of the LokSound #50321 speaker kits, which I have used before with great success. I used the smallest enclosure in the kit. The sound improved markedly! And I only had to reduce the weight through machining by 10 or 15% or so. Now it sounds great and can pull an acceptable load up grades.
How does the WowSound decoder perform? Fantastic! They are my new favorite.
Reasons:
1. The sound is very realistic.
2. The operation is the most realistic of any decoder I have tried. Realistic in that it has a separate brake function button. If you set it up for a fair amount of momentum, then it will coast for quite a while, but if you press the brake function (press and hold) it will stop in a shorter distance, complete with brake sounds. And a brake release button which will release the brakes and produce the air release sound. And after all, this is how the prototypes operate.
3. The decoder has a back EMF feature that is the most realistic of any decoder which I have tried. From straining at notch 7 or 8 going uphill to basically going to idle going downhill without touching the throttle. Very realistic.
4. It has a very realistic horn quill function button which rotates varying grade crossing signals which some talented engineer produced.
5. Also impressed that the kit has a mother board which mounts in place of the factory board, and this board includes capacitors. Then the decoder board plugs into the mother board. The capacitors do a great job of keeping the loco running and the sound going if there is an intermittent open, or unpowered frog or dirty track. I have yet to have one single stall with these locos.
As a result, these locos are just a joy to run. So despite the less than optimum speaker performance, these are now my new favorite decoders. I will consider just buying the decoder without the kit in the future, so that I can install the LokSound speakers.
I agree with your positive comments re MRC decoders. After years of avoiding them on the advice of others, I tried one and found it worked quite well, and have added maybe 6 or 8 to engines over the last year or so. Their choice of single-chime "blat" airhorns is very good, so many of my first-generation diesels now have MRC decoders. For many years the single chime horn was a weak point for Soundtraxx decoders. To my ear, the old Soundtraxx single chime sounded kinda like a sick moose...but it did usually make my grandson laugh.
Also, since I like an engine to have both headlights on, with the one in the direction of travel bright and the other dim, I am very glad that I can program an MRC decoder to do that by setting only one CV. On some other decoders, it takes four CV settings - and I still haven't worked out how to do it on ESU Loksound decoders!
However, I'm not sure about your comment re MRC and horns? Yes you can use one of the F buttons to scroll thru the horn settings, but you can program a value into CV50 to set the horn that you want F2 to play, and it stays that way. At least that's been my experience.
Loksound Selects cycle through multiple prime mover, horn, and bell sounds through one CV as well. AND they document what kind of horn each one is - yes, a dig at MRC, after I bought one to try it out for myself. Great, there's a horn CV to set like 49 different horns. But the instructions don't tell me what each one is. So I emailed their tech support, my answer was "we don't keep track of those things". Translation, I suppose, is, we didn't even engineer these things, we just farmed it all out.
My 'problem' with Loksound is that the correct Alco sound project for an RS3 doesn't have the correct horn for my prototype. But Loksound DOES have the correct horn in their sound library. So I end up using V4.0 instead of Selects in my RS3s because I can take the Alco sound project for the V4.0 and substitute the horn from their library and get the exactly correct sounds for my models. With no fooling around with sound editors and all that nonsense which I have no desire to do (although to get the kind of access to a real live locomotive to gather such recordings - that part would be fun).
What I do love about the Loksound decoders is that all of the ones I have already installed are from before they added the Full THrottle feature. No worries, I can just plo each loco on the program track of my Lokprogrammer and update the firmware. Don't have to open up the loco, don't have to remove and toss out the old decoder. Just update it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
peahrens (where will I ever get a replacement drive O-ring of the right size?)
(where will I ever get a replacement drive O-ring of the right size?)
How about here:
http://www.theoringstore.com
I have a very good local hardware store. When I needed O-ring replacements for a water filter, they ordered some by size, sorta like the website above.
I see from the website that there's a lot of materials to choose from. THAT might be a problem, I suppose.
I have a Sunset brass 2-8-8-0 that uses an O-ring, so I might be joining the club someday.
When I added the LokProgrammer, I also included a PTB-100 program track booster. I forget when it is needed (with my NCE ProCab) to allow reading from the program track, maybe for reading CVs from the throttle, but it's there.
I found I needed a booster to program my T55 locos. Impossible without, easy with.
That's somewhat strange, as the T55 locos used Digitrax sound decoders, which were designed to not need a program track booster. But, I also have a Digitrax system, so I never had problems reading the one decoder I got to play with (cheap, but the sound quality with only 8 bit relatively low frequency encoding). But I also could program older BLI locos with QSI decoders with no problem and no booster. Biggest problem there seemed to be when changing from the default address of 3 to a long address matching the cab number, with the Zephyr,t he automatic setting of CV29 failed, nearly every time. This issue went away when I added a DT400 throttle to my system and used that instead of the Zephyr console - the extra prompt to set CV29 delayed it a bit and then it seemed to work. The issue with those decoders seemed to be not any high current requirement, but rather even without the verbal readback turned on, you couldn;t just set CV17-18-29 bang bang bang, it needed a delay afert 17/18 where, if on the main, it would speak back the address, before it could accept another program command to set CV29. This seems to be the issue with most systems that fail to program these QSI decoders - on examination, CV17/18 have the correct values for the desired address but CV29 is still set for the default short address. Anyway, they have mostly gone the way of the dodo - they are still around but none of the OEMs uses QSI any more. They're all Loksound or Tsunami these days.
Going back to the OP. When Athearn, Bachman gets decoders for there factory sound installs the has the decoder strip down many things to cut cost. Don’t think we are looking at a fair comparison.
BUT that is just IO