ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now if they could make it so the list was a list, without pictures, brief description and number, and I could arrange the list putting the lead unit of each consist where I wanted them, maybe 12 or 15 on a page, that could work........ Sheldon
Now if they could make it so the list was a list, without pictures, brief description and number, and I could arrange the list putting the lead unit of each consist where I wanted them, maybe 12 or 15 on a page, that could work........
Sheldon
Although it sounds like it could be a simple problem to solve, this is a problem created where there was none before.
A the list would have to be in a written language. Languages are specific to each country the product is marketed, which makes it more expensive than using universal pictures to communicate.
Kinda regressive in terms of communication, considering how cavemen evolved from using pictures into modern man with complex literacy. Other than the pure profit driven motive of marketing a product to be global...i.e. border-agnostic, I never understood why so many in the tech arena think using pictures is a convenient or efficient way of communicating nearly every choice. Humans evolved away from that and into their language silos many thousands of years ago.
Now back to the topic.....
- Douglas
rrinker I don't see what in Ring's documentation would lead you to believe you MUST use their power supply.
I don't see what in Ring's documentation would lead you to believe you MUST use their power supply.
The problem with their documentation is too much rah, rah, rah, and not enough technical information.
They do state that upon first use in a locomotive, the decoder's current draw is measured and used to calibrate its settings. They don't state whether the draw is measured within the decoder or by the power supply, both of which communicate with the hand held controller. If it is within the decoder, then it appears you would not need their power supply at all. I was looking for confirmation of that.
I also find it puzzling that they mention using DCC to power the loco in several places, yet never mention anything about existing DC supplies, nor do they list the specific advantage of their regulated DC suppy over any off the shelf regulated DC supply.
I understand their supply reports overload situations back to the controller, but is there anything else? The audible click of a circuit breaker would work for me.
FWIW, I have a couple of variable 30 amp linear supplies capable of 14 vdc. If I were to decide on RailPro versus expanding my meager Digitrax/DCC investment, I would prefer to use one of them and save one or two hundred bucks.
CG
Doughless Although it sounds like it could be a simple problem to solve, this is a problem created where there was none before. A the list would have to be in a written language. Languages are specific to each country the product is marketed, which makes it more expensive than using universal pictures to communicate.
The RailPro controller already has textual "buttons." They are in English.
RailPro is marketed only in the US. Regulatory approvals for a radio communicating device are far more onerous and costly than minimal user interface software development for a handful of common languages.
CentralGulf Doughless Although it sounds like it could be a simple problem to solve, this is a problem created where there was none before. A the list would have to be in a written language. Languages are specific to each country the product is marketed, which makes it more expensive than using universal pictures to communicate. The RailPro controller already has textual "buttons." They are in English. RailPro is marketed only in the US. Regulatory approvals for a radio communicating device are far more onerous and costly than minimal user interface software development for a handful of common languages. CG
Again, I have not used RailPro and was observing comments and combining it with my own experience regarding the software and apps for tablets, smart phones, etc,
Sometimes a picture is better, because its worth a thousand words. But since proper wording often wont fit on the cramped screen, the problem created requires settling for pictures.
Except in this case we are merely replacing 1-4 numbers with a picture. As I mentioned, in Europe this makes sense - locos do not have nice 1-4 digit numbers to use as a simple ID. Pictures are almost a must, unless you want to carry around a cheat sheet saying what DCC address corresponds to what loco. It's why they weren't big on the long address feature, either. But the top European DCC systems have picture databases to select locos - look at the ESU ECoS for example. They've been doing it for a while now. It hasn't gone very far in the US yet because it's not really necessary. We have those nice numbers conveninetly printed right on the loco to use.
So what we have is a proprietary throttle (like DCC) that is somewhat expensive because it has all this whiz-bang color touch screen stuff in it, with as of yet no lower cost alternative (all the major DCC manufacturers have their full featured throttles plus one or more simple enginner throttles which are less expensive, have fewer buttons, and are designed to simply run a train. And most anyone with DCC can to touch screen if they so choose, via JMRI and Engine Driver/WiThrottle. Which works nicely on the cheap $10 Android phones you can get - how's that for a cheap throttle? DCC has it all - traditional knob throttles, touch screens with pictures, and whatever else someone might come up with, combined with an interoperability factor because of an NMRA standard communications protocol. What's funny is that the one DCC system that makes you pay a (slight) royalty to commercially sell compatible items has the largest third party market of all the DCC makers, and one of if not the largest DIY base with complete systems, individual modules, and schematics and code for complete DIY components.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
No, you do not need the RailPro power supply for anything. No you don't need a programing track.
All I bought was the hand controller and some decoders. Installed the decoders in my engines ( they install using the same 9 pin connector as DCC ) put the engines on the main track, set them up and ran them. It's imposible to accidentally program one address to all your engines.
The engine information is stored in the decorder. I moved a decoder to a different engine and the original information was still there. The new engine information over wrote the old information.
No where have I seen documation that Digitrax or NCE can control the power supply from the hand controller. Pressing the e-stop on either of these systems just stops the locomotive. I'll check my NCE Power Pro instructions again.
rrinker Except in this case we are merely replacing 1-4 numbers with a picture. As I mentioned, in Europe this makes sense - locos do not have nice 1-4 digit numbers to use as a simple ID. Pictures are almost a must, unless you want to carry around a cheat sheet saying what DCC address corresponds to what loco. It's why they weren't big on the long address feature, either. But the top European DCC systems have picture databases to select locos - look at the ESU ECoS for example. They've been doing it for a while now. It hasn't gone very far in the US yet because it's not really necessary. We have those nice numbers conveninetly printed right on the loco to use. So what we have is a proprietary throttle (like DCC) that is somewhat expensive because it has all this whiz-bang color touch screen stuff in it, with as of yet no lower cost alternative (all the major DCC manufacturers have their full featured throttles plus one or more simple enginner throttles which are less expensive, have fewer buttons, and are designed to simply run a train. And most anyone with DCC can to touch screen if they so choose, via JMRI and Engine Driver/WiThrottle. Which works nicely on the cheap $10 Android phones you can get - how's that for a cheap throttle? DCC has it all - traditional knob throttles, touch screens with pictures, and whatever else someone might come up with, combined with an interoperability factor because of an NMRA standard communications protocol. What's funny is that the one DCC system that makes you pay a (slight) royalty to commercially sell compatible items has the largest third party market of all the DCC makers, and one of if not the largest DIY base with complete systems, individual modules, and schematics and code for complete DIY components. --Randy
It might be slightly more expensive to sell a product throughout Europe than it is throughout the US...if a part of the allure of the product is utility. Not every Italian speaks Flemish, and producers have to go though some hoops because of those differences and borders. It would be more profitable if they weren't there..which is the philosophy behind the EU. Not to get political, but borders are seen as barriers to profits with certain types of products, especially those with a global target.
Sometimes things that are marketed as advancement or progress for everybody has other dynamics driving the development.
Maybe not specific to railpro, but certain things developed in europe differently than the US because of all of the language and cultural borders.
There's two ways to do it with Digitrax. The E=Stop button can be either local (only stops your train) or glbal (stops all trains). Plus there is also the Power button which controls track power. E-Stop is not the same as turning off the power - E-Stop sends a broadcast stop packet to address 00 which all conforming decoders must respond to. The track power stays on, just every mobile decoder goes to speed 0. Turning the track power off will of course stop everything - all power is removed from the rails. I'm pretty sure NCE has an E-Stop that works similarly.
The very first page of the quick start instructions for Digitrax (ok, second page, first page is a picture of how everything hooks together) talks about turning the power supply on and off via the throttle - the default setting is that the command station boots up with the track power off and you need to turn it on before a loco can run. That can be changed, but frankly I think it's kind of silly to have the track power come on the instant you plug the thing in or flip the switch on your power strip or whatever, unless you totally clear the tracks after you are done. If the system powers up witht he power on and someone left a throttle set to some speed other than stop and that loco is still on the track - it's going to start moving. Until it hits something, derails, or runs off an unfinished part of the layout and crashes to the floor. By requiring a simple Power/On sequence you know nothing will move until you are ready for it.
OK, a few more thoughts:
I have eight ATLANTIC CENTRAL GP7's, four FA/FB sets, nine USRA Heavy Mountains, eight 2-8-0's, etc - they all look the same in a picture.
A simple description like "GP7 3546" means way more than a picture, a picture my eyes cannot see well on that small screen without my reading glasses, glasses I do not need to see the train on the layout.
But a simple description like that, in a large enough print to be the touch screen "button" would be much better for me, and a lot of folks like me I suspect, even if it was still only six to a page........
It would easily define the otherwise identical locos.
I am into operations, so that is why they are so many multiples of the same type of locos.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL A simple description like "GP7 3546" means way more than a picture, a picture my eyes cannot see well on that small screen without my reading glasses, glasses I do not need to see the train on the layout. But a simple description like that, in a large enough print to be the touch screen "button" would be much better for me, and a lot of folks like me I suspect, even if it was still only six to a page........
According to what I could dig up, users can create custom loco images with a Windows application from RailPro. It's $20, if I recall correctly. With that app it should be possible to create an image along those lines, just large block letters and numbers. It's what I will do if I end up going with RailPro.
This thread has been very helpful. Along with my own research, I have learned enough to convince me it is a viable system for my needs. I will keep it under consideration.
I guess I participate in these tech vs tech threads out of fascination. I simply don't understand the allure of new tech, and why it would compel somebody to switch systems when their current system has been learned and works just fine.
I recently relocated my domecile. I took my toggle switches and NCE DCC system with me because it was still working and I plan to build basically the same DC for operations/DCC for sound layout I had. Even a tear down and rebuild isn't motivation to look into changing operating systems.
But the topic is fascinating nevertheless. Not because of the tech per se, but why people care about it.
I guess my observation is that the conversation is getting into minutiae, like most tech vs tech threads, where how many times we press buttons determines whether a system is better or not. Heck, I think flipping toggles is pretty easy. When we're talking about which easy thing is incrementally easier, I see it as the systems being basically the same, with the difference to me being the system I have is already paid for.
CG & Sheldon:
You can add a description right out of the box. It's built into the controller. The decoder stores it. And even my 68 year old eyes with triple focal glasses can read the block lettering. I use the standard locomotive picture that comes with the controller and just give it a description. IE: SP 2413. I did install my own picture of one of my locomotives which is nice, but the standard picture works for me.
You can also add your own picture without buying a program. The special program in Windows is 'Paint'. You just need to download the program from Ring (Free!) that lets RailPro connect with your computer via a USB cable which comes with the controller.
The controller package also comes with a battery charger as the batteries in the controller are rechargable and do not need to be removed from the controller to be recharged.
One thing that I stumble on regarding consist. If you have a consist assembled but not running, you can pick any engine in the consist to run the consist. You don't have to pick the lead locomotive. As an experiment, I attached an A-B-B set to the front of 25 cars, then put an A-B set in the middle of the cars. ( These 5 locomotives had already been consisted as a 5 unit consist). I selected the B unit that was in the middle of the train from the controller, and ran the train. It ran perfectly. Amazing.
BTW, when making up a consist, you don't have to give the consist a special address to run it. You just use one of the locomotives that you pick from the locomotive page that's part of the consist.
Well, I didn't expect to spark this heated of a debate lol.
For those who haven't used it, the Dynamis system is a very limited DCC system aimed at beginners and for that it is really great.
What it does do is get you a wireless DCC controller for +/- $100 (ebay, modeltrainstuff) that will control trains and activate functions. It can also program CVs, however it cannot read the existing values unless you add the additional ProBox.
What it does not do is any of the more advanced functions that a lot of other DCC system have out of the box.
For my needs it was the perfect introduction to digital train control, and after using it I definitely do not want to go back to DC.
I guess my original question was really, if I switch to RailPro will I be dissapointed. From the responses I'm thinking not and it will be perfect for my needs. I don't and probably never will have 150 identical locos, right now we have a GP20, SW9, 0-6-0, and an F unit. I would like to get some more 4 axle diesels (18" radius curves), but my son prefers "puffy engines". Regardless, we have a roughly 10' x 4' dogbone layout and can't have that much motive power no matter what it is.
I can definitely see how with a much more complex layout and large roster the infinite customization of traditional DCC could be preferred, but for us I think the simplicity of a system like RailPro is the way to go. One example being that I tried to change the Prime Mover volume in my Loksound, but actually changed the settings for the headlight instead and had to reset to factory to get it to come back on.
Some of my fellow Railpro users have already answered many of the questions asked here. I'll reiterate a few things and touch on some other points.
-Railpro does not require a Railpro power source. A Railpro-equipped locomotive will run as long as it has power, be it from DCC, DC, battery, etc. I have used regular DC power packs to power Railpro locos (not recommended though, as some power packs can "spike" and damage the electronics). I also have a battery-powered locomotive in the works.
-FYI Railpro power supplies are 14.2V regulated DC, 4 amps. They (and ALL Railpro products) can be controlled via radio from the controller. Railpro power supplies also act as "repeaters", amplifying the signal between the controller and locomotives, and providing multiple paths of communication.
-You can create whatever you want for a locomotive picture. Most (including me) use pictures of the model locomotive, a few make a "numberboard" using Paint or similar, so that it is very easily seen on the screen.
-There is software available from Ring Engineering that allows you to load your own pictures and sounds, as well as sounds, product programs, lighting effects, etc from Railpro. The program is free, but you must pay to unlock the ability to load your own sounds.
-Everything in Railpro can be updated with new software. If you want a different feature, Ring Engineering can include it with a future software update. It was mentioned here that having a list of locomotives would be nice rather than filtering through pages of locomotive pictures....with some coding and testing by Ring Engineering it is entirely possible to have that as an option.
-If you have a very large fleet of locomotives, it is doubtful that all the locomotives need to be stored on every controller. If you have that many locomotives, it is likely that you have specific jobs to be done on the railroad. Different controllers could be used for different purposes, without having to load all the locomotives onto it. For example, yard locomotives tend to stay in the yard....have a controller that has only the yard locomotives on it. No need to load everything else on it because the controller will probably never be used for anything else. This is how I plan to do it on my future layout....one controller for road trains, one for locals, one for yard duty. I plan to have 3-4 people operating at once.
-If cost is a concern to you, consider getting a CI-1 (Computer Interface): CI-1. It is a USB powered Direct Radio adapter. Basically turns your computer into a full-fledged controller for Railpro without having to buy the Railpro controller (the most expensive thing in Railpro). This will get you up and running quickly. The controller is easier to use than a computer, but that can be purchased later.
-Videos of Railpro can be found here:
-Overview (old video, Railpro has changed some since then):
-Installing Railpro (this one shows the automatic amp draw setting):
-Video highlighting how to customize Railpro:
There's a lot more I can say, so if you have any questions feel free to ask.
-Kevin
K-Pack -FYI Railpro power supplies are 14.2V regulated DC, 4 amps. They (and ALL Railpro products) can be controlled via radio from the controller. Railpro power supplies also act as "repeaters", amplifying the signal between the controller and locomotives, and providing multiple paths of communication.
Reading through the RailPro documentation, I found one vague reference to this repeater ability. In my mind, this is something Ring Engineering should cleary state and emphasize up front.
One of the reasons I originally went the Digitrax route is the possiblity of automating part of the layout via custom PC software and loconet. If Ring Engineering were to release the protocol specs for that CI-1 USB interface it would make the RailPro system that much more attractive.
Well, I just found out about RailPro on another MR post. I'm between layouts right now. I have a Digitrax Super Empire Builder from my last layout I had planned to replace. I find Digitrax tedious and their customer service TO ME sucks. I hate the stupid pigtail that gets caught in trees and other things..........SO..............I read the RailPro mention with great interest. I think having 2 trains controlled by the same throttle is not a good idea.
I'm not very computer savvy and don't care to try to understand JMRI or whatever it is and conecting my computer to my railroad. I use my computer for emails, forums and orders to Klein's. I will have a small 14x16 layout running WM steam with a possible double header sometimes. There will probably never be more than 7 locomotives on the layout at any given time and more than likely not more than 2 locomotives operating at once. I also have no fellow modelers in the area who could bring their choochoo's over to play and vice-versa. So the ease of getting trains to run with RailPro very much appeals to me.
My Digitrax investment is small and it appears most of it will either burn or melt in my burn pit so that's not a problem either.
I would think all these questions about RailPro could and would be answered with emails to them and actually ask them these questions rather than everyone guessing and belittling the product before ever seeing or operating with it.
My understanding is the power supply is included in the basic set and not an add-on like Digitrax and, I assume, the other DCC brands.
My feeble old brain hasn't made a decision yet as to NCE or RailPro but I sure like the simplicity it shows SO FAR. I agree there are many unanwered questions and I'm anxiously awaiting my replies from them right now.
No matter what............I THINK Digitrax sucks!
My 2¢,
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Roger , tell us what you think about Digitrax, don't be shy... I checked out the Railpro thing from the other thread, interesting, maybe, if I was to start all over, or haven't started yet and was looking, as the start-up cost is comparable to other systems,.....my question, just like I asked in the thread about wireless control, does Railpro work if you have hidden areas, like long tunnels ? Long, like 8' or more of hidden track.?
Mike.
My You Tube
Well don't burn the Digitrax, I will remove the best DCC system on the market from your hands and put it to good use on my layout. Besides, the fumes from burning plastic and electronics are harmful to your health. You'll probably blame Digitrax for that, too.
I just want to know - why are you holding the throttle over the layout so that the cord gets caught in trees? You know they DO have wireless too. My throttle never comes above the fascia when I run trains, it hold it down at my side. Since you can just click the knob to change direction, i don't even have to look to do so. My other hand is free to operate ground throws or use uncoupling picks. Try that with Ring's controller, or any of those touch screen type controls. You need 2 hands to hold it and you have to look at the screen to find the buttons.
Randy,
Burning seems an appropriate end for it. Selling used DCC is pretty hard as most people won't buy it and rightfully so. I don't "blame Digitrax" for anything except being more complicated than it should be and providing me with crappy customer service. Seems like many users tend to agree and many have converted to NCE citing that as one reason. Hind sight and all that.
Well the DT402R has some kind of semi-flexible wire thingy sticking out the top that I call a pigtail. In past use on other people's layouts I have witnessed the pigtail getting caught in scenic items & structures near the edge of the layout. Some folks have rather tight aisles which means an operator must crowd close to the layout for others to pass and allows the wire to contact things. Some layputs are also located at the level allowing that too. Maybe if the EnemaRay enforces layout height standards that problem would be eliminated. Some folks need to see the buttons on the throttle so they push the correct ones too which would put the throttle out in front of them and somewhat high.
The RailPro throttle can be operated by one hand for most functions. I'm sure with use an operator would learn the location of specific buttons without looking. People type by feel and memory, use cell phones, tablets, etc that way so I can see that happening with their equipment too.
Maybe a large layout or someone with 100+ locos in service would find the system not handy but there are many folks just looking to run a few engines on a small(er) layout that like the ease of the RailPro. I think it will fit my needs.
Everyone is free to disagree but let's keep from being rude to each other.
An additional 2¢,
CentralGulf Reading through the RailPro documentation, I found one vague reference to this repeater ability. In my mind, this is something Ring Engineering should cleary state and emphasize up front.
RailPro user here. The likely reason Ring Engineering doesn't go out of the way to promote the repeater function in the power supply is because it is almost never needed. Your layout would have to be absurdly huge or there would have to be something in the room that is especially good at blocking the radio signal. I don't know what that would be.
My RailPro HC-1 can control trains from a substantial distance outside the train room. The basement is 75' long with the layout at one end. I can control trains from anywhere in the basement or first floor of the house. The number of walls (stick & drywall) between the controller and train doesn't seem to matter. I have never tried from outside the house but it proves the HC-1 control is solid to at least 100'. Why would anyone operate a train from more than 100' away?
I suppose if you live in a very densely populated area with a lot of signals in the RP band then perhaps the repeater could add signal strength but given that cordless phones work fine in the same environment I doubt you need the RailPro repeater even then.
I think the repeater function was a freebie byproduct of Ring putting communications in the power supply so it could be controlled by and report status to the HC-1 controller.
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
oldline1 Randy, Burning seems an appropriate end for it. Selling used DCC is pretty hard as most people won't buy it and rightfully so. I don't "blame Digitrax" for anything except being more complicated than it should be and providing me with crappy customer service. Seems like many users tend to agree and many have converted to NCE citing that as one reason. Hind sight and all that. Well the DT402R has some kind of semi-flexible wire thingy sticking out the top that I call a pigtail. In past use on other people's layouts I have witnessed the pigtail getting caught in scenic items & structures near the edge of the layout. Some folks have rather tight aisles which means an operator must crowd close to the layout for others to pass and allows the wire to contact things. Some layputs are also located at the level allowing that too. Maybe if the EnemaRay enforces layout height standards that problem would be eliminated. Some folks need to see the buttons on the throttle so they push the correct ones too which would put the throttle out in front of them and somewhat high. The RailPro throttle can be operated by one hand for most functions. I'm sure with use an operator would learn the location of specific buttons without looking. People type by feel and memory, use cell phones, tablets, etc that way so I can see that happening with their equipment too. Maybe a large layout or someone with 100+ locos in service would find the system not handy but there are many folks just looking to run a few engines on a small(er) layout that like the ease of the RailPro. I think it will fit my needs. Everyone is free to disagree but let's keep from being rude to each other. An additional 2¢, Roger Huber Deer Creek Locomotive Works
We have them all oover the club, most just hold the pigtail behind the throttle. A rubber band works too. The R throttles have a pigtail because you need to plug them in to acquire a loco.
Selling used Digitrax is easy, because everything they made from day 1 is still usable with a system purchased today. Usually it doesn;t go cheap, either - which isn;t a bad thing if you are trying to get rid of stuff, but not so good when you are looking to buy more. Many of the other old DCC systems, particularly the old MRC ones, are practically worthless as the old systems are in no way compatiblem witht he new ones. MRC has since learned.
The only reason I got a whole new Empire Builder set to add to my Zephyr was because it was the last one at a dealer closing out because he was closing his business. I didn;t need another throttle as I already had a DT400, but that got me a DT402, the DB150, and another UP5 for about the price of the throttle alone.
Also, since Digitrax ha snow discontinued the R simplex radio throttles and the UR91 radio base, there are people paying a premium for them because they don't want to switch to the duplex system and want spares. And like I said, the DB150 works perfectly fine as a command station, or as a booster with an old DCS100 or as a booster for a brand new DCS240. Check completed auctions on eBay - you'll be surprised how much you can get for that 'old' stuff. There are no updates that might make yours less useful - there never was a need. That old DB150 can address all 29 functions that modern decoders have just as well as it can handle just F0-F8 which was all there was in the NMRA spec the day it was introduced.
This complete backwards compatibility is something a lot of people miss. Digitrax was like that from the very beginning. More recently some of the other manufactuers have caught on and allowed a no waste growth path from the most basic starter system up to the top of the line. That's why I was one of few who recommended the Zephyr as a starting point, and that a newcomer should NEVER get the Empire Builder - mostly because of the lack of CV reading, and there not being a program track (too easy to make a simple msitake and reprogram ever loco you own). The Zephyr was a much more capable system compared to the SEB, and the current Zephyr Xtra even more so. It's what I've been using for over 14 years. The Zephyr was still my command station on my last layout, the DB150 was strictly a booster. Only now am I looking at buying one of the new command stations, because my full basement layout will finally exceed the capabilities of the Zephyr.
Kinda funny that a guy calling for civility is yelling that something "sucks" and that it should be set on fire.
Roger,So Digitrax "sucks" because of the 6" throttle cord? Um, how about a rubberband around the throttle and tuck the cord under it? A bunch of guys in my club do that. Personally, I just hold the throttle in my hand in such a way that the cord is between my palm and the throttle case. I never have the cord snagging on scenery when it's in my hand. You could also cut the cord shorter and put on your own connector.
Two trains being run on one throttle like Digitrax can do is actually very handy for running your own pusher independantly. Running two locos separately on one throttle can be tricky, but I've done it when I've been moving power around in the yard.
What about their customer service "sucks"? I've had nothing but good experiences with them since 1999. For $25, they once replaced a DT400R that had been dropped because they couldn't fix it. They gave us a brand new throttle. Sounds like a good deal to me. Turnaround time for repairs can be variable, but nothing terrible...and they've never lost anything of ours.
There are things to fault Digitrax on; the "pigtail", twin throttles, and customer service really aren't at the top of my list. The screen could be bigger, the reliability could be a lot better, and the manuals could be clearer, certainly.
Selling used Digitrax items isn't hard at all. I look at eBay and see there's used stuff being sold there consistently. You're not going to get list price, but then you don't get list price for plastic locos, either. It's used and it's going to sell for much lower than retail.
What's more complicated than it has to be with Digitrax? You said you've only got 7 engines and are modeling the steam era. What are you trying to do that could be considered complicated? Once you program each loco to it's own address, hit the LOCO button, type the address, hit ENTER and away you go. "0" turns on the headlight.RailPro's throttles are not made for one-handed operation. When holding a throttle, my thumbs point up; the RailPro throttle is at the bottom. This is a poor design, IMHO. For changing directions, the reverser button is at the top right of the screen. I tend to hold my throttle left handed so I can use my right to uncouple cars, throw switches, etc. (I'm right handed). In my left hand, I had trouble getting my thumb to the reverser button.
Personally, I hope you find RailPro to be better for you. It's not for me, tho' I am tempted to get it just for mainline fun on my club's layout. I would just never use it for switching.
Alan,Not for nothing, but my club's layout room is 132' long. I think the major problem that would require a repeater would be scenery made using metal mesh or screen. They tend to mess up radio signals.
Paul3,
By civility I meant being rude to another poster. By saying I personally think Digitrax sucks I base that on the mumbo-jumbo user manual & the poor customer service I RECEIVED. I know others that agree with that completely. I never said Digitrax should be set on fire but stated where my own lousy stuff will end up. I never attacked anyone but stated my opinion about a product/company based on my personal experiences. I'm glad you got such great treatment from them. If you notice in the MR forums and other forums there are constant posts about the terrible & wonderful customer service modelers get from the same companies all the time.
As to the comment about the pigtail some friends and I operated on a fellows layout and his throttle pigtail, antenna, cord, curb feeler, etc. got tangled in the guy's trees and structures. So it can and does happen.
I think the idea of running helpers with another throttle isn't what DCC was supposed to be all about. I thought the idea was ALL locomotives in a train would be controlled by the one throttle. Might as well go back to DC if that's how it's to be used. It would save a lot of money and time.
I understand the RailPro throttle is larger than a DT400 or whatever but I've seen videos of guys using them single handed. Personally I need to view the DT400 and see the buttons to operate it. I also don't type well and have to look at the keyboard. Apples and oranges again.
"Also, since Digitrax ha snow discontinued the R simplex radio throttles and the UR91 radio base, there are people paying a premium for them because they don't want to switch to the duplex system and want spares. "Randy
Isn't that one of the big issues people seem to have with the RailPro system........fear of them going out of business and not being able to buy more items. What's the difference? Point of view for DCC vs RailPro? Discontinued is discontinued to me.
Anyway.........these are my opinions and observations. I'm not trying to offend anyone and I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.
I don't like the Digitrax throttle or the RailPro throttle.......
My Train Engineer throttles are ambidextrous and easily operated with one hand completely by feel.
Once a throttle is "assigned" to a train, by whatever system, I don't want to have to look at the throttle to control speed or direction.
I don't want tinny buttons, I don't want endless wheel pots, I don't want displays to read.
I do want an on/off switch......
Someone should built a DCC throttle that works like the Train Engineer.....oh, I forgot, it needs the 37 buttons for all that stuff I don't use......never mind.
oldline1"Also, since Digitrax ha snow discontinued the R simplex radio throttles and the UR91 radio base, there are people paying a premium for them because they don't want to switch to the duplex system and want spares. "Randy Randy, Isn't that one of the big issues people seem to have with the RailPro system........fear of them going out of business and not being able to buy more items. What's the difference? Point of view for DCC vs RailPro? Discontinued is discontinued to me.
Two big differences: One - with the Digitrax simplex radios we are talking about discontinuing items because parts are no longer available for them, not a company going out of business, and the parts that are discontinued can still be used with the current systems and the newer throttles can be used with the older systems, so even with the discontinuation of the parts you can still update and/or add to your system with out having to replace everything. If Ring Engineering goes out of business, once the parts dry up there will be no adding to the system.
Two - Since DCC is a standard with several manufacturers, your not tied to one decoder manufacturer. If Ring Engineering ever goes out of business, even if you have all of the system components you will ever need, once all of their decoders are all sold out you would not be able to add Rail Pro to any more engines. If Digitrax, or any other DCC manufacturer goes out of business, there are many other makers of decoders to supply people's needs.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't want endless wheel pots
Correction: throttles with endless wheels use encoders, the ones with pots have a hard stop at each end.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSomeone should built a DCC throttle that works like the Train Engineer.....oh, I forgot, it needs the 37 buttons for all that stuff I don't use......never mind.
The Digitrax UT4 series only has eight buttons, a pot with hard stops, and no display.
CSX Robert ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't want endless wheel pots Correction: throttles with endless wheels use encoders, the ones with pots have a hard stop at each end. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Someone should built a DCC throttle that works like the Train Engineer.....oh, I forgot, it needs the 37 buttons for all that stuff I don't use......never mind. The Digitrax UT4 series only has eight buttons, a pot with hard stops, and no display.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Someone should built a DCC throttle that works like the Train Engineer.....oh, I forgot, it needs the 37 buttons for all that stuff I don't use......never mind.
Well excuss me for not being up to your high standards of "technical" terms.
Yes, the UT4 is my prefered throttle when I'm on a Digitrax layout, which I have considerable throttle time on several.....
I MUCH prefer the fine control of an encoder. There's no need to look at the display other than to pick a loco address to operate. Know your speed/ Just watch your train. Unless you set up for yard mode, when the train is stopped, it's stopped. couple extra clicks just to be sure it's stopped and not on speed step 1 if you're paranoid about the train creeping away. Plus you can just push down on the knob to change direction. No hunting for a direction button, or trying to find the toggle. This is all accomplished with my hand holding the throttle down at my side, not looking at it. The clicks on the knob as you turn it are tactile feedback so you know you actually are turning the knob and not just slipping your thumb on it. One use and I was done with 270-320 degree pots for good. Plus you can't easily switch back and for between running locos with a potentiometer because the physical position is directly related to the speed. Not so an encoder, you can freely change between different trains running at different speeds and nothing happens to either one until you actually move the knob.
As for the whole MU thing - that's fine for diesel modeling. It emulates the way the real ones work, one control stand running a whole group of locos. But for steam operation - if you really are interested in operating, you should have a second person with their own throttle running the pusher. Next best, you can do it yourself with a dual throttle like the DT series, one for the head end loco and one for the pusher. That's STILL doing stuff you can't easily do with DC. With traditional blocks you're great as long as the head end and the pusher are ALWAYS in different blocks. I STILL can;t figure out how it can be done (independent control) with something like Sheldon's MZL, since the route assignment sets what cab is controlling those tracks, unless on a helper district you add cab selection overrides. With DCC there's no bother, the locos don;t have to be speed matched, and they could have completely incompatible gear ratios. Since each is under independent throttle, the engineer on the head end might be at step 15 to maintain 10mph up the hill, while the pusher is at step 30. The way the real ones work. Unless you are doing modern railroading with remote control helpers, even diesels were the same way. You might have 4 units up front in a consist all controlled by one throttle, but the extra two that coupled on tot he rear to shove up the hill weren;t controlled by the lead engineer, they had their own crew who operated like they did in the steam days, by feel, whistle signal, and brake line.
The direct radio systems should be able to do this just fine. It's nothing new, it's been possible since the very first command control systems in the 60's.
rrinker I MUCH prefer the fine control of an encoder. There's no need to look at the display other than to pick a loco address to operate. Know your speed/ Just watch your train. Unless you set up for yard mode, when the train is stopped, it's stopped. couple extra clicks just to be sure it's stopped and not on speed step 1 if you're paranoid about the train creeping away. Plus you can just push down on the knob to change direction. No hunting for a direction button, or trying to find the toggle. This is all accomplished with my hand holding the throttle down at my side, not looking at it. The clicks on the knob as you turn it are tactile feedback so you know you actually are turning the knob and not just slipping your thumb on it. One use and I was done with 270-320 degree pots for good. Plus you can't easily switch back and for between running locos with a potentiometer because the physical position is directly related to the speed. Not so an encoder, you can freely change between different trains running at different speeds and nothing happens to either one until you actually move the knob. ......... --Randy
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And that is why they make Fords and Chevys, I tried all that, never could get comfortable with it.
When I first considered the Train Engineer I was not sure if I would like the buttons, but once I did, I was sold.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell excuss me for not being up to your high standards of "technical" terms.
Well, it's not a matter of having high standards of "technical" terms, it's a matter of being correct. A pot (potentiometer) and an encoder are two completely different things.