I think I know the answer to this but I'm going to ask the question(s) anyhow.
I have a Con-Cor Aerotrain that allows for the center twin headlights (on either side of the red center light) to flash when the horn is blown:
The locomotive did not come with a sound decoder and the decoder I have in it presently is a 2-function M1P TCS decoder.
According to the Con-Cor website the flashing headlight feature is only available on a decoder "that supports P-3 function". My questions are the following:
Thanks ahead of time for the help, fellas...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageI have a Con-Cor Aerotrain that allows for the center twin headlights (on either side of the red center light) to flash when the horn is blown:
I don't believe the Aerotrain inner lamps actually flashed, as some present-day ditch lights function.
My recollection is that the three lamps were in one housing that used a Gyralight (or perhaps Mars) mechanism. The lamps on either side of the red lamp were like an ordinary oscillating headlight. When the train went into emergency the white lamps automatically switched to the red lamp and turned on the oscillating motor IF it was not already running. Additionally, the rear, red oscillating light would come on automatically in emergency as well.
So you really only need a four-function decoder and map the "Mars or Gyralight" function to those two lamps. Of course, the far outer two lamps were the regular headlights. I guess if you wanted to illuminate the red signal lamp you would probably have to go to a six-function decoder.
Others may have more information than I do but this is from what I recall.
You can see in this photo that the oscillating lamp housing, with all three lamps, is slightly canted to the left as relative to the direction of the engine.
Regards, Ed
Thanks, Ed! F0 turns on the outer two headlights. The center red light comes on when the engine is in reverse. I haven't tried hooking up the observation car yet to see what happens to the rear headlights on that unit.
Thanks for the pic of the lamp housing, too. Looks like I'll have to fit some glass into that to match the prototype. All the surface-mount LEDs are nicely mounted in the front portion of the chassis for easy accessibility. Molded light tubes transfer the beams to their appropriate lenses.
Sounds like you'll have fun with it, Tom!
I bought a Rapido, United Aircraft TurboTrain since I once rode it once from Penn Station to New Haven, Conn. It's a nice model but one of those things I don't run very often. Still, a crowd pleaser for visitors to see operating on the layout.
Here is a nice look at a surviving Aerotrain at the Museum of Transport. Narration is slightly less than professional but the detail views would be very helpful for you.
Again you can see the detail of the headlight housing. I believe you would benefit by blackening the housing background, too.
I have seen two combinations of the rear lights, either both red or one switched to a regular 7" sealed beam. Perhaps one of the host railroads needed better lighting for back-up moves and substituted a clear lamp.
I can not be certain if the red light was fixed or oscillated. Some western roads wanted the red oscillating light for rear-end protection in case of an emergency stop. The Rock Island ran them the longest, 8 or 9 years in Chicago commuter service. I understand they were frequently out of service during their tenure there. Rock Island added the oddly conspicuous number plates on the front cowl.
Enjoy, Ed
Hello all,
I just picked up an Aerotrain shell that I'm planning on restoring.
For the lighting functions in question I did a similar installation on my rotary snowplow.
I used the TCS #1479 KAM4-LED decoder. This is a 4-function decoder that doesn't require resistors to power the LEDs.
The dual head-lamps on the snowplow were wired, in series, to function 1. Then the dual reverse lamps were wired in series to function 2.
Red LEDs were used on the cab roof and rear end to simulate beacons. These were wired to functions 3 & 4 separately.
The forward red LED was programmed to simulate a rotary beacon while the rear was programmed to simulate a strobe. The motor function was wired to power the rotary plow motor. The prototypical unit was unpowered and used a F-B unit with a steam generator for motive power.
Because the forward and rear white LEDs were wired to functions 1 & 2, Rule 17 Dimming could be used, while the red LEDs could be controlled by their separately mapped functions.
On my Aerotrain I'm planning on using function 1 for the innermost clear LEDs (headlights). Function 2 for the center red LED, and the two outermost lights will be powered by functions 3 & 4, to simulate alternate flashing beacons; Mars or Gyralite patters.
I don't know if rear lights were employed by the Aerotrain but these could be wired in series with the red LED to produce a similar effect to Rule 17 Dimming.
Or, a 6-function decoder could be employed with functions 5 & 6 used for the rear lights.
Personally, the 4-function decoder works for me.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Hard to tell if that center red light is mounted to the oscillating plate for the two lights alongside it, or if it is just stationary and there is an opening int he plate so it can move around the red light. It looks clightly recessed in the close up view so I'm going to go with the red light was just a stationary red light.
Not sure what Con-Cor may have done on their circuit board, but since the two lights ont he oscillating platform are on the same platform, they could be wired together to one function with an oscillating effect turned on. The red light is probably wired to FoR if it goes on in reverse now, but to duplicate the prototype use it would have to be on its own function, or at least mapped to a specific button and not just F0R so it could be used with the train stationary.
Also not sure what they mean by a "P-3" function decoder. A 3 function decoder would be enough, outer two lights F0F, red light F0R, and oscillating lights the third function. If that function were mapped to F2, then the lights would oscillate when the horn is blown.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Also not sure what they mean by a "P-3" function decoder. A 3 function decoder would be enough, outer two lights F0F, red light F0R, and oscillating lights the third function. If that function were mapped to F2, then the lights would oscillate when the horn is blown.
I found that somewhat confusing myself, Randy. Could it mean Pin 3 (P3), which is normally unused?
Ah - pin 3 on the 8 pin connector. Normally not connected to anything, so if you put the plug in backwards, nothing blows up. Some decoders hook an extra function wire up in their 8 pin harnesses - on the old P2K E units with the Mars light this could be used to turn the factory Mars light circuitry on and off so you didn't have to run a wire up front to repalce the dual filament bulb to use the decoder's effects.
In any event, a 4-function decoder would still be required to operate the flashing Mars lights...?
If you want true independent control of the red light, probably. Those Mars lights (or whatever ones they actually were) would not alternately flash like ditch lights, so the both could go on the same function. It appears that they are both tied to one oscillating frame, so they would always be in time with one another, not independently oscillating, so one function. Total: 1 for the outer lights (headlights), 1 for red light, 1 for oscillating lights (on either sideof the red light) - so just 3 functions. The power unit is akin to a cab diesel, so there is no light on the back of it, thus they likely have F0R going to the red light, however that can often be remapped to a dedicated button so you could turn the red light on when stopped and not just in reverse. Mst decoders that have a 9 pin conenctor on the decoder have 4 functions anyway, but 3 should be enough, and 3 is the most you can do though the 8 pin connector, all others would eb additional wires.
Thanks, Randy...
I just wanted to give a quick update. I pulled the 2-function TCS M1P decoder this afternoon and installed a 4-function version of the same decoder (M4P-1"). The green wire was already wired up to Pin 3 so I was able to get the Mars light function to work on the inside headlights after a bit of programming to CVs 49, 51, and 61. Works great! Thanks again for everyone's input!
I also wanted to mention that I was able to confirm from a DVD that I had packed away (New York Central Odyssey Volume 1) that the Great Lakes Aerotrain did run with Mars lights sometimes, which can be found on the Part 1 DVD at the 34:33-34:38 mark. And I also discovered from a 2-sec clip starting at 33:20 of the same disk that the rear observation car had a rear taillight that flashed. Something else to program when I get back home.
It's fun looking at old prototype footage. I always seem to notice something new everytime I watch one. And it isn't always related directly to the train.
tstageSomething else to program when I get back home.
I have too found a subset of this hobby that I have been enjoying immensly, LED lighting for all things needing lights! Cabeese, passenger cars, engines, firebox flicker, etc.. I love it and have learned much over the last year.
Hope you enjoy your more animated Aerotrain!
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
tstageI also wanted to mention that I was able to confirm from a DVD that I had packed away (New York Central Odyssey Volume 1) that the Great Lakes Aerotrain did run with Mars lights sometimes, which can be found on the Part 1 DVD at the 34:33-34:38 mark.
Emery Goulash deserves to be in the railroader's hall of fame for the prolific photographic and sound recordings he left behind!
Every time I view one of the Green Frog films or see his 35mm slides reproduced in one of the Morning Sun books I give my thanks that his work can live on in eternity! I had the pleasure of meeting him on one of the Michigan Railroad Club outings and he was quite the character!
I just wonder how many feet of 16mm film passed through his trusty Bolex?
Tom, It actually looked to me that the rear light was oscillating like a Gyralight would. Did you see it somewhere flashing such as a modern-day EOT?
Just curious...
gmpullmanTom, It actually looked to me that the rear light was oscillating like a Gyralight would. Did you see it somewhere flashing such as a modern-day EOT? Just curious... Regards, Ed
It's interesting that you bring that up, Ed. At first I thought the rear light might be oscillating. Then I thought, nah - perhaps it's just blinking like the EOT you mention.
I brought the DVD back with me and will take a look at it again. The clip is only 2 sec. long so it's a challenge. I posted the question on one of the NYC Yahoo! groups but nobody has responded yet, or seems to know the answer.
On the subject: What's the difference between a Mars light and a gyrolight? Is it the motion of the light, or the housing the light sits in? Or, are they the same thing; just from different manufacturers?
The motions are different. A Mars light is a figure-8 pattern, a Gyralite is elliptical.
Gyralight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4cHFhz_Dd4
Mars light:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGQYnI2AhE
Those were the best ones I could find that you can see the lamp and lens assembly moving in the characteristic patterns.
Thanks, Randy. That's helpful.
I saw another clip that showed the Mars light being cast onto a groups of trees and you could definitely see the figure-8. How easy is it to distinguish the two light-types when they're coming at you from a distance? Given the pattern, it seems to me that the flash would be twice as fast on a Mars light than the gyrolight.
That's about it - I think thr Google search is did was Mars versus gyralight and selected videos to get those two. There was another one that came up whch showed two models, one with the light configured for the Mars effect, the other set for Gyralight. Since you can't actually make the headlight oscillate, they use different patterns though it is not simply an on/off blink like a strobe. This is where you need either an incandescent bulb or a decoder which is designed to supprot LEDs for lightign effects. Though I recall an article in a really old MR that showed how to add a Mars light to I think an All-Nation O scale F unit via mechanical means. There may have been two such articles, one had a shutter suspended on a peice of spring wire to use the random motion of the loco to partially block the light and the other used a roatating tube which may have been in HO using a rubber band drive from the axle ala Athearn Hi-Fi drive - might even have been installed in an Athearn dummy F unit.
Or - just pick a loco and change the effect for the headlight to the different options. That's what I did when I first got DCC, I wanted to see what all those different things were so I just cycled through the options = steady on is obvious of course, and I tried Mars, Gyralight, single strobe, dual strobe, and even firebox flicker. Which is actually useful for a headlight if you are modeling old time equipment prior to electric headlights. That's all part of the fun, just trying each option.
Randy,
Perhaps you or someone else can give me some advice on how to add the Mars light effect to the rear red taillight of the observation car.
Let me set things up first so that it's clear what lights are tied to what. I'm also including the pic that I used in the original post:
Lightling effects can be adjusted using CV49.
If I change CV50 from [16] to "34" so that FWD and REV are set to Mars light:
CV51 (green wire - Pin 3) is what you change in order to impliment any lighting effects.
So, from what I've written above: Is there any way to add Mars lighting to the rear red taillight - e.g. remapping - while it's moving in the forward direction? Would it drastically change the current lighting setup? Or, can it be added without disturbing how things are mapped? Or, would this be more easily achieved using the purple (4th function) wire?
Thanks for wading through all this. This is all new territory for me and I'm trying to wrap my mind around it. I don't see a straightforward approach without it altering the current lighting setup significantly. My hope is that it will be simpler than I think it's going to be.
Thanks for the help...
VERY interesting thread Tom!
I have 3 of the original Varney Aerotrain locomotives (which were unpowered) and seven cars. I even managed to score one of the after-market locomotive drive systems and it works great. At some point in the future I plan on detailing the train which obviously would include full lighting effects.
This discussion has been very informative. Thanks Tom and Randy and others.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
tstageSo, from what I've written above: Is there any way to add Mars lighting to the rear red taillight
On some of my passenger trains I use a function only decoder that drives a rear Gyralite. For years I used a function only decoder on a C&NW push-pull cab car that had a rotary beacon and headlight in forward and the red markers came on in reverse. I just programmed it to the same address as the lead engine.
I have since replaced that with a Soundtraxx Soundcar so now I have a horn and bell, plus air conditioning compressor sounds, too along with the beacon, headlight and markers I can also turn the interior lights on or off.
If it were me, I'd use an FL-2 and you can have the white light on in reverse or have a Mars OR Gyralite when the train is forward.
https://www.tcsdcc.com/Zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=45
Once it is set up like that you never have to mess with it and you can keep all the engine functions simple.
[edit:]
I should note that, while operating as a train, there were regular electric marker lights. Most photos I have seen show the Pyle cat-eye type although somewhere I have seen the Aerotrain with a pair of big 'ol Adlake "non-sweating" markers.
http://rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc1001drl.jpg
Railroad operating rules do not recognize an oscillating signal light as "markers" therefore the Aerotrain could not be designated as a train without the additional marker lamps displayed.
Have Fun! Ed
I sort of recall having a similar discussion a few years back with regards to the Aerotrain. Kemtron made the drives to power those unpowered Varney models and they made 2 versions, one was kind of lacking in details but it did make it run, the other had highly detailed castings for the front truck and for the suspension of the single axles at each car. Either one is probbaly rarer than hen's teeth, so if you find one, the price is probably going to be outrageous. You can probably find the already powered Con-Cor one for less.
Hi Randy:
My drive is the earlier version. There are no truck details, and the suspension details that Varney molded into the wheel wells on the shell are pathetic.
I have had one major success with upgrading the Varney coaches. I discovered that NWSL made metal stub axle wheel sets that fit into the axle holders that are molded into the bodies. I had to shave a bit off of the insides of the axle holders to get the wheels to turn freely but other than that they fit quite nicely.
You are right about the rarity and cost of the Kemtron drives. I came across one a few years ago on eBay in amongst a box of junk. Unfortunately I wasn't the only one with a sharp eye so I didn't win the auction. That's ok, I only need one powered locomotive.