For anyone familiar with the Blueline series of BLI locomotives, they come factory equipped with a sound and lights decoder for DC operation. You can add an after-market motive decoder for DCC operation.
I have two F7A Blueline locomotives and, suffice it to say, I have had it with the dual decoder system. Tonight, I had to remove the motive decoder on one unit to reprogram the sound and lights decoder. Just the latest in a long string of problems. Consisting is the worst of the problems, but so is just trying to program the motive decoder without losing sound and lights.
So, I am ready to dump the two decoders and replace them with a single sound decoder. Has anyone done this with Blueline locos, particularly diesels?
Rich
Alton Junction
Never bought any of the Blueline locos, but it should be fairly easy to do since all the wires should come right up tot he factory board. If they don;t use standard colors, just tag them as you remove each wire, then remove the factory board and attach a sound decoder to the approriate wires. The stock speaker(s) should be fine for most common sound decoders.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi, Rich
Yes, I have made the switch on four six F7s and one Light Mikado. Very easy to do. I used Loksound Selects on two four of them, WOWsound diesel on the other two F7s and the WOWsound steam on the Mikado.
They are among my best performers now, especially that Mike. It pulls beautifully and once you get the hang of programming the WOWsound the results are excellent.
I got pretty good Ebay deals on these engines. In the Mikado's case, the decoder was fine but the speaker was bad so the seller was "unloading" it not knowing that the problem was a cheap speaker.
Now I have a box of Blueline decoders with nowhere to go.
I also did a few Broadway "Silent Service" or whatever they called their short-lived non-sound series. §
On the diesels it is pretty easy to see where the wiring has to go. The steam only taked a few minutes to ring-out the wire assignments. In most cases, the outer two pins are track pickup, next pair in are motor leads and the middle three are headlight — headlight + and chuff.
Broadway likes to use plugs on their boards. I could look later to see what the wire assignments are on the board, but I agree with Randy, it is pretty simple to trace the wiring.
Good Luck, Ed
§ Stealth
rrinker Never bought any of the Blueline locos, but it should be fairly easy to do since all the wires should come right up tot he factory board. If they don;t use standard colors, just tag them as you remove each wire, then remove the factory board and attach a sound decoder to the approriate wires. The stock speaker(s) should be fine for most common sound decoders. --Randy
gmpullman Yes, I have made the switch on four F7s and one Light Mikado. Very easy to do. I used Loksound Selects on two of them, WOWsound diesel on the other two F7s and the WOWsound steam on the Mikado.
Yes, I have made the switch on four F7s and one Light Mikado. Very easy to do. I used Loksound Selects on two of them, WOWsound diesel on the other two F7s and the WOWsound steam on the Mikado.
The worst part of it is consisting which is all but impossible. No, scratch that last comment. It is impossible to consist Blueline locomotives. As soon as power is turned off and then back on again at the next session, the sound and lights are gone and re-programming has to take place. Incredibly annoying.
gmpullman Broadway likes to use plugs on their boards. I could look later to see what the wire assignments are on the board, but I agree with Randy, it is pretty simple to trace the wiring.
Thanks.
richhotrain As soon as power is turned off and then back on again at the next session, the sound and lights are gone and re-programming has to take place. Incredibly annoying. Rich
As soon as power is turned off and then back on again at the next session, the sound and lights are gone and re-programming has to take place. Incredibly annoying.
Yea, that would be annoying, Rich. Thankfully, I never had any issues with my Blueline Niagara or the Lenz Silver MP decoder that I installed into it. Worked everytime.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I always wondered about Browadway's timing on introducing BlueLine, since by then the dual decoder thing was rapidly disappearing due precisely to issues with programming them, plus advances that allowed the motor control circuitry to coexist on the same board as the sound circuitry without being too big to fitTo be fair, Digitrax also came out with the Soundbug about the same time, but they also had a line of motor decoders specifically designed to work with it. You can connect a Soundbug as a second decoder in anything, but you take your chances like any other dual decoder install unless you use the specific Digitrax motor decoders made to work with it. Broadway had suggestions on which decoders worked best alongside the Blueline sound decoder, but there never were any guarantees.
My point on the install is basically, use your favorite. Since the wiring is easily accessible, anything will work. Someone who prefers WOWSound is going to say they work the best, someone who prefers Loksound is goign to say they work the best, etc. So pick whichever one you like, the install process will be the same no matter what you pick. Despite the complete interoperability with decoders, there are advantages to sticking with a limited number of different brands across your fleet.
richhotrain gmpullman Broadway likes to use plugs on their boards. I could look later to see what the wire assignments are on the board, but I agree with Randy, it is pretty simple to trace the wiring. Ed, if you get a chance to look, if you could check on the number of wires feeding into the sound and lights board, that would be appreciated. Since I still have the shell off of my F7A, I can look closely as well. Thanks. Rich
Ed, if you get a chance to look, if you could check on the number of wires feeding into the sound and lights board, that would be appreciated. Since I still have the shell off of my F7A, I can look closely as well.
Nine wires, five black and four gray connect from the light board at the front of the loco to the BLI circuit board. There are four lights, each powered by a black and gray wire and one extra black wire (?). There are also four pickup wires, two left and two right.
The BLI circuit board is huge, at least 4" long, and it is loaded with plugs for the motor wires, lighting controls and speaker.
The after market motor decoder is an NCE N14IP with an 8-pin plug-in connector.
I was just headed into the workroom to get some photos, Rich. Yes, there's tons of room inside the F7s and even more in the B unit which is set up for two speakers.
I can't say if the BLI speakers are "top-quality" or not. They don't seem to be but I'm planning to replace them with TCS #1555 28mm round speakers. I had a bunch on hand.
I'll post them here in the next hour or so. I had already clipped off the plugs. I rang out the headlight, cab light and number board LEDs. There's 2 that go to blue + and the other three are the function ones.
Personally, I have no use for the cab light, I might wire it to one of the lighting functions but then again...
For many of my diesels I have the number boards lit all the time, directly off of track power, why waste a function for those? I like seeing them lit all the time. It seems BLI has a higher value resistor already on the board for those since they are a little dimmer than the headlight.
The motor plus is the tan wire and minus is black. On mine, black was Right rail, gray, left rail.
I'll get on to photos soon.
Are you saying you are using the N14IPs as the decoder in the "rebuilt" BLI engines, Rich or are you using a sound decoder? When I was trying to get my Bluelines programmed I was also using the N14IPs. Never had any luck with them and I believe neither one of them is working anymore. I'll have to check them again.
Above is the array of the recent conversion. I had already clipped the plugs off the chassis wiring.
Above, you see the two blue + wires clipped to my LED tester and the one headlight minus wire connected and the headlight lit.
Motor PLUS is the tan, or left side wire.
Here's the B unit with the two TCS speakers and a Loksound Select Direct board sitting in the cavity.
Here is how the light board wiring works out on my F7.
From Left: Number Boards — : Headlight — (wire on bottom): Cab Light —
Right hand wires both + to decoder common Blue.
No Mars Light. I'll probably add a back-up light and wire the number boards directly to the rail A-B pickup wires.
Hope that helps...
Regards, Ed
gmpullman Are you saying you are using the N14IPs as the decoder in the "rebuilt" BLI engines, Rich or are you using a sound decoder? When I was trying to get my Bluelines programmed I was also using the N14IPs. Never had any luck with them and I believe neither one of them is working anymore. I'll have to check them again.
gmpullman Here is how the light board wiring works out on my F7. From Left: Number Boards — : Headlight — (wire on bottom): Cab Light — Right hand wires both + to decoder common Blue. No Mars Light. I'll probably add a back-up light and wire the number boards directly to the rail A-B pickup wires. Hope that helps... Regards, Ed
You identify my mystery wire (?) as the Number Board Minus. I remain a little confused on that one. As I count them, there are five lights up front on the F7A, a dual head light, a Mars light, a cab light, and a pair of number board lights. The cab light provides the illumination for the number boards. So, there are a pair of wires (one black and one gray) for the dual head light, the Mars light, the cab light, and the number board lights. That seems to me to leave a fifth black wire unaccounted for.
You may have to just dig in and see where that extra wire goes to on the circuit board and see what LED it's wired to. Since it appears BLI uses a black wire for the positive , there may be an independent line to the second headlight with both sharing a common negative side, thus one more black wire than grey wires. Seems like belt and suspenders unless thre's an option in the functions to lighjt just one headlight indepdently of the other. Unless the second headlight is not mounted to the PC board and thus cannot share the same black wire with the first headlight.
rrinker I always wondered about Browadway's timing on introducing BlueLine, since by then the dual decoder thing was rapidly disappearing due precisely to issues with programming them, plus advances that allowed the motor control circuitry to coexist on the same board as the sound circuitry without being too big to fitTo be fair, Digitrax also came out with the Soundbug about the same time, but they also had a line of motor decoders specifically designed to work with it. You can connect a Soundbug as a second decoder in anything, but you take your chances like any other dual decoder install unless you use the specific Digitrax motor decoders made to work with it. Broadway had suggestions on which decoders worked best alongside the Blueline sound decoder, but there never were any guarantees. My point on the install is basically, use your favorite. Since the wiring is easily accessible, anything will work. Someone who prefers WOWSound is going to say they work the best, someone who prefers Loksound is goign to say they work the best, etc. So pick whichever one you like, the install process will be the same no matter what you pick. Despite the complete interoperability with decoders, there are advantages to sticking with a limited number of different brands across your fleet. --Randy
I think they were stii afraid of a long legal battle with the MTH guy who claimed to have 'invented' combined DCC/Sound decoders. Until the MRIA and NMRA won against him.
rmgoatI think they were stii afraid of a long legal battle with the MTH guy who claimed to have 'invented' combined DCC/Sound decoders.
We are only now getting to the point where good sound management is provided without proprietary tools and resources. And 16-bit processing cores and available memory to serve them become cheap enough to implement in a default 'single decoder' package... with all the controls needed to 'do it right'.
richhotrain I have two F7A Blueline locomotives and, suffice it to say, I have had it with the dual decoder system. Tonight, I had to remove the motive decoder on one unit to reprogram the sound and lights decoder. Just the latest in a long string of problems. Consisting is the worst of the problems, but so is just trying to program the motive decoder without losing sound and lights. So, I am ready to dump the two decoders and replace them with a single sound decoder. Has anyone done this with Blueline locos, particularly diesels? Rich
At the time, I was ready to pull out the factory installed sounds and lights decoder and the after-market motor decoder and install a single sound decoder, but I never did.
The big problem with the dual decoder system was programming a consist of two or more Blueline locos. It is next to impossible. My solution was to simply program the same long address in each loco in the consist. That has worked well for me ever since.
richhotrain richhotrain I have two F7A Blueline locomotives and, suffice it to say, I have had it with the dual decoder system. Tonight, I had to remove the motive decoder on one unit to reprogram the sound and lights decoder. Just the latest in a long string of problems. Consisting is the worst of the problems, but so is just trying to program the motive decoder without losing sound and lights. So, I am ready to dump the two decoders and replace them with a single sound decoder. Has anyone done this with Blueline locos, particularly diesels? Rich That was the crux of the matter when I started this thread a few years back. At the time, I was ready to pull out the factory installed sounds and lights decoder and the after-market motor decoder and install a single sound decoder, but I never did. The big problem with the dual decoder system was programming a consist of two or more Blueline locos. It is next to impossible. My solution was to simply program the same long address in each loco in the consist. That has worked well for me ever since. Rich
That was the crux of the matter when I started this thread a few years back.
I have that same set of Blueline F7's. AB & AB, that I have yet to modify in any way from the factory condition (no completed layout at the time, but I'm getting there soon).
I have read of numerous problems with 'duel decoders' in these blueline locos, but I had hoped that solutions would be sorted out by the time I needed to do so.
I do understand that many folks just take the 'sound only decoders' out of these engines and replace them with all new combo 'sound & dcc' decoders.
What I am asking Rich, is about your work-around. Are you saying that you are able to operate your ABBA Santa-Fe consist by simply using the same long address for the decoder equipped A units in that consist? In other words this works for this particular consist, but still won't allow these locos to be consisted with others??I might be able to live with this plan for these particular locos, and it might save some money?If so is there are more up-to-date motor/motion decoder one might put in those stock blueline locos (rather than the ones Rich utilized a number of years ago??
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
richhotrain The worst part of it is consisting which is all but impossible. No, scratch that last comment. It is impossible to consist Blueline locomotives. As soon as power is turned off and then back on again at the next session, the sound and lights are gone and re-programming has to take place. Incredibly annoying. Rich
Are you saying the decoder(s) lack the capability to remember the settings that have been 'programed' into them?
(Please excuse my ignorance of this subject)
railandsail What I am asking Rich, is about your work-around. Are you saying that you are able to operate your ABBA Santa-Fe consist by simply using the same long address for the decoder equipped A units in that consist? In other words this works for this particular consist, but still won't allow these locos to be consisted with others?? I might be able to live with this plan for these particular locos, and it might save some money?If so is there are more up-to-date motor/motion decoder one might put in those stock blueline locos (rather than the ones Rich utilized a number of years ago??
I might be able to live with this plan for these particular locos, and it might save some money?If so is there are more up-to-date motor/motion decoder one might put in those stock blueline locos (rather than the ones Rich utilized a number of years ago??
I have never tried to run the Blueline A-units in a non-Blueline consist, but you would not be able to use the same long address in both Blueline A-units, at least not very easily.
The Digitrax N14IP decoder is still available. That is the motor that I used.
railandsail richhotrain The worst part of it is consisting which is all but impossible. No, scratch that last comment. It is impossible to consist Blueline locomotives. As soon as power is turned off and then back on again at the next session, the sound and lights are gone and re-programming has to take place. Incredibly annoying. Rich Are you saying the decoder(s) lack the capability to remember the settings that have been 'programed' into them?
Rich,...do you still have these blueline F7's running with DCC and sound as you have spoken of above?
I have an ABBA set of these BLI bluelines that I very much like the sound of, BUT I have only run them on DC. Now I would like to get them to run on my new soon to be DCC layout, WITHOUT having to purchase new sound decoders for them. But I have heard SO MANY negative comments about this possiblity !!
Thats why I would be very interested to hear that your method work(s)?
I don't think the private email works for me on this forum, so perhaps we can find another method for you to let me know if your blueline F7's are still working with this single address?
regards, Brian
Brian,
The Blueline locos that were the subject of this thread are the onlu Blueline locos that I have ever owned. I bought them because the price was right and it suited my need for an additional F7 Santa Fe consist. The consist is made up of two F7As and two dummy (unpowered) F7Bs. I bought them new and they came with factory equipped lighting and sound. I paid the vendor (Factory Direct Trains) an extra fee to install motive decoders in the two F7A units.
This thread discusses my problems with programming the F7A locos in an Advanced Consist using my NCE PH-Pro 5 amp wireless system. I never did replace the dual decoder setup with a single sound decoder nor did I mess with the Lock feature to synchronize the two decoders in each loco. What I did do is to use the same long address in each loco and ignore the Advanced Consist feature. It works like a charm. I would recommend this approach to all Blueline users.
With my two F7As, the lighting includes the headlight and a Mars light. Not all F&As have the Mars light feature. I can control the headllight and the Mars light independently although with the Advanced Consist feature enabled, both F7As respond to the lighting commands which is, of course, not prototypical, but it works for me.
THANK YOU RICH !! I am very encouraged by your experience, and I intend to experiment on several of my blueline locomotives.
railandsail THANK YOU RICH !! I am very encouraged by your experience, and I intend to experiment on several of my blueline locomotives.
Hi Rich,
I am new to the forum but not new to DCC. I have been given a couple of BLI Blueline locos (AC6000) to covert to DCC, speed match and prepare for consisting. I inserted a TCS M1P-MH decoder in each loco and everything worked fine. I got the speed matching right, quickly & easily with both sound and movement. I then created an advance consist using my NCE Powercab and everything worked well. I turned everything off and left the workshop.
I went out the next day and turned everything on; I went to test the locos again before sending them back to the customer and all I had was movement, no sound. I have been trying solve this over the last few months (between other jobs). This includes connecting the test track to use JMRI DecoderPro to see if that can help solve the problem.
I am on the verge of ripping everything out and installing a single decoder for the customer. However, you say you did not do that in the end. Can you please explain how you got the sound decoder working again (it works on DC but not DCC)?
Or would it be better to replace the whole dual decoder with a single decoder? This would prevent any future problems.
Hi Dan,
Welcome to the weird world of Blueline locomotives. As a generalization, BLI produces a very good product, but the Blueline series is the exception to the rule.
The Blueline Series was an attempt by BLI to produce a DC locomotive with sound and light features added to the circuit board for later user conversion to DCC, should the user so choose. In your case, you chose the TCS M1P-MH motive decoder to convert to DCC. So far, so good.
However, the inherent problem with this type of setup is that you now have two decoders, one motive and one sound and lights. Each decoder has its own address, so programming one decoder has no effect on the other decoder.
To solve this dual decoder dilemma, the LOCK feature was initially relied upon to prevent accidental programming or to enable programming two decoders in the same locomotive separately which share the same address.
Multifunction Decoder Programming Lock is a technique that allows one decoder to be locked, defeating the ability to program it, while allowing the other to be programmed. This feature can also be used to prevent accidental programming of a multifunction decoder. This feature uses CVs 15 and 16. In practice, however, the LOCK feature creates more problems than it resolves, so Blueline modelers no longer use the LOCK feature.
If the user wants to program and run a single Blueline locomotive, the dual decoder system works fine. The problem arises when two or more Blueline locos are programmed as part of a consist.
I have had some success with Old Style Consisting, but that method is not as efficient as Advanced Consisting. Unfortunately, Blueline locos and Advanced Consisting don't like each other.
When you initially set up an Advanced Consist with two or more dual decoder Blueline locos, everything seems to work fine. However, once you power off and later power back on, the Advanced Consisting feature seems to be lost and either the sound and lights work or the motive power works but not both.
The only solution that I have found is to kill the consist and start all over again by rebuilding the Advanced Consist.
Ultimately, I had two options. One, remove both decoders and replace them with a single sound decoder in each loco. Two, forget the Advanced Consist and jusr set all of the locos to the same address. I chose Option #2. The one drawback to the same address approach is that each loco acts like it is the lead loco regarding sound and light functions.