I have an excellent article by Don Fiehmann that explains Consisting but not this question. In my home Digitrax system you setup a "TOP" unit and then MU secondary engines to this consist, but must always use the TOP unit address for control. Also, all the consist information is stored in the command station (my Zephyr). In our club's NCE sysem you can use either the first or last engine's address to control the consist without reprogramming the consist. Is some of the consisted information stored in the decoder and some in the command station, and could this be done in my Zephyr? Thanks for any insight. Capt. Brigg, CEO Pacific Cascade Railway in HO gauge.
Capt. Brigg FranklinUSCG Licensed Marine OfficerCertified crazy train chaserCEO: Pacific Cascade Railway
Capt. Brigg In our club's NCE sysem you can use either the first or last engine's address to control the consist without reprogramming the consist. Is some of the consisted information stored in the decoder and some in the command station, and could this be done in my Zephyr?
Well, the NCE system, assuming you are speaking of the 5 amp PowerPro system, actually uses both the command station and CV19 in the decoder. The command station can store 128 consists from 1 to 127. If you let the command station assign the consists the first consist will be 127.
Let's then assume that the engines you want to consist are 1000 (lead); 3000 trailing; and 2000 in the middle. When you consist them the system will ask you to enter those loco numbers starting with the lead (1000), trailing (3000) and any additional locos (2000). It then puts a value in CV19. In this case the value is 127. What is happening is that when you enter the lead unit number, 1000, that information is sent to the command station and the command station recognizes that #1000 belongs in consist 127 and sends a signal to all the units in the 127 consist.
If you don't unconsist the three locos and take them to somebody else's NCE railroad, they will not run as a consist when you enter one of the cab numbers. This is because the different command station does not recognize any of them as belonging to a consist stored in its memory. However, if you happen to remember that the consist number you initially used was 127, the new command station will recognize that as a valid consist number and send a signal to the three locos. Of course if there is already a consist 127 on the new railroad that will move also.
I don't think that the Zepher uses CV19, so I don't think you can do the same thing.
maxmanIf you don't unconsist the three locos and take them to somebody else's NCE railroad, they will not run as a consist when you enter one of the cab numbers. This is because the different command station does not recognize any of them as belonging to a consist stored in its memory. However, if you happen to remember that the consist number you initially used was 127, the new command station will recognize that as a valid consist number and send a signal to the three locos. Of course if there is already a consist 127 on the new railroad that will move also.
newbie question Consist 127 is defined in the owners command station. For a club command station to also recognize it must mean that the locos decoders have the info for consist 127.....no?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Digitrax default consisting is 'Command Station' based. NCE's default is 'Decoder' based. You should be able to use a NCE consist on a Digitrax system(as long as the consist address is not taken). A NCE system will not see a Digitrax consist as the consist info is in the Digitrax system.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
You can configure Digitrax to use CV19 consisting but the default command station consisting is more flexible in many cases. NCE can do command station based consists like Digitrax, it's what they call "old style" consists. Then there is the original method of consisting - assign each loco the same address. I do this for locos that are drawbar coupled, so there is no way to make and break them on the layout anyway.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BigDaddynewbie question Consist 127 is defined in the owners command station. For a club command station to also recognize it must mean that the locos decoders have the info for consist 127.....no?
I think you are asking me "how does the club command station know that the owner's locos are in consist 127?" It doesn't. It just thinks that the owner's locos are numbered 127, a short address.
NCE uses two types of addresses, short and long. Short address are from 1 to 127, and long addresses are from 001 to 9999. It so happens that NCE also uses the short address range, 1 to 127, for consists. So if one were to select loco 127 at the club, the command station sends out a signal to anything with the address of 127. So the owners locos would run because that is really the value in CV19, and any loco that happend to be 127 on the club layout would get the same signal.
To get around this NCE has a way to change the addresses from 1 to 127 from short address to long addresses, and that is to use zeros in front of the loco number. So the address on a club loco that happened to be 127 would be programmed in as 0127.
Hopefully that explains what's going on.
Decoder assisted consisting stores the consist address in CV19. When a consist is built, that consist address is written to CV19 of each decoder included in the consist. Since it is one CV, consist addresses can only be short addresses up to and including 127.
the way Cv 19 works is if it is 00, the decoder answers to its normal short or extended address per CV29 settings. If CV19 is any value other then 00, the decoder will only respond to speed and direction changes sent to its CV19 address. Function commands can still be controlled using the decoder's normal non-consist address.
The command station sends out speed and direction packets to only the consist address. All decoders with that consist address will respond. Digitrax will do decoder assisted consisting (aka Advance Consisting). Easiest way is to program CV19 in the engines and run them using the Cv19 consist address. To break the consist, program CV19 to 00. NCE does this by default without the extra programming steps. But that programming is being done by teh NCE command station when a consist is built or broken. Because NCE programs Cv19 to make a consist, that train will not respond on a Digitrax layout unless the consist address is used.
Not sure if it is possible to set a Digitrax Zephyr to automatically use decoder assisted programming. It is an option that can be enabled on their Chief systems.
Martin Myers
I should have mentioned that I use JMRI to do all my decoder programming at home and can easily program CV19 to a consisting address, if Digitrax will recognize that CV. My real question involves being able to turn the consist and use the old trailing engine number as the new consist number, like I do on NCE at the club?
If you set CV19 in all the locos, they will all respond to the CV19 consist address. None of them is special in being the front or top loco, they are all equal. The easiest way I can think to flip the lead/trail loco using the standard Digitrax method would be to drop the trailing loco from the consist and create a new one with that loco as the top and then add the consist address of the rest of the consist (you can nest consists with Digitrax). Now the former trailing unit will be the lead loco and the rest of the consist will follow along.
rrinker If you set CV19 in all the locos, they will all respond to the CV19 consist address. None of them is special in being the front or top loco, they are all equal.
I may be incorrect, but I think that NCE does some other magic when consisting that also changes CVs 21 and 22. These are the consisting CVs which set which functions respond to the lead unit number (motor), and respond independently (light, horn, bell).
Capt. Brigg,With Digitrax, I rather doubt you can just use a trailing address in the MU to make the whole consist go like you can with NCE. In fact, you really can't use any 4-digit address to make an consist move if CV19 is programmed higher than 0 with Digitrax.
One of my fellow club members is also a member of another club. We use Digitrax, and they use NCE. The member MU'd a set over at his other club, then brought them to ours. We couldn't get any of them to run with their programmed address. Instead, we had to run them based on the value in CV19 (107 in this case). To get them to run using their own address, we had to set CV19 to 0, which broke up the MU.
There are advantages to the Digitrax way. For example, I've seen articles about all the programming one has to do to make a consist work realistically with CV19 consisting. Things like wanting the trailing unit headlights to be off, or only wanting the bell and whistle to work on the lead unit but not the trailing units. This all has to be selected and programmed by NCE users. With Digitrax, it's easy; just don't turn those functions on. Only the lead loco will turn on the headlights, flash ditchlights, blow the horn or ring the bell because it is the only one with active control over functions. The rest just move along and play all the engine sounds, but that's it.
OTOH, with CV19 you never have to worry about "losing" the MU and getting a unit dragged around the layout.
Paul A. Cutler III
On both my home PCRy layout and our club CC&W layout a consisted train with three engines will often start out in one town travel to another town, swap freight, reverse the engines and run around the train to return to the first town. With NCE this is very easy as you just swap the lead engine on your throttle. With my Digitrax duplex system, I have to either run the engines in reverse or reprogram the consist swapping which is the "TOP" engine. Using a three digit number in CV19 would both be harder to remember than the engine number, and I still will have to run the consist in reverse. I'm way too deep into Digitrax to move to NCE at this late date. I'll reread all your suggestions and play with CV19 to see what can be done, thanks. Capt Brigg, CEO Pacific Cascade Railway in HO scale.
Many of the layouts in my area use NCE (as do I). I haven't operated on one that uses the consist number for actual operations. I have never worried about CV values when consisting locomotives with NCE. When you "advance"consist with NCE you tell the system the lead engine and the trailing engine, which directions they are facing plus the other engine numbers in the consist. Once the units are consisted then all you do is select the lead engine in the direction you are facing.
I consist engines 101, 201 and 301 into a consist numbered 111. File that for future reference, its not needed by the operators. The 101 is the east unit. The consist goes on an EWD train. Tell the crew they have engine 101.
The crew hits select loco, enters 101, hits enter and away they go with engine 101 operating as the lead unit.
The train gets to the other terminal and we want to put on a WWD train. We tell that crew you have engine 301.
The crew hits select loco, enters 301, hits enter and away they go with engine 301 operating as the lead unit.
No CV's, no consist numbers, no engines running "backwards". Its very simple.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Many of the layouts in my area use NCE (as do I). I haven't operated on one that uses the consist number for actual operations. I have never worried about CV values when consisting locomotives with NCE. When you "advance"consist with NCE you tell the system the lead engine and the trailing engine, which directions they are facing plus the other engine numbers in the consist. Once the units are consisted then all you do is select the lead engine in the direction you are facing. I consist engines 101, 201 and 301 into a consist numbered 111. File that for future reference, its not needed by the operators. The 101 is the east unit. The consist goes on an EWD train. Tell the crew they have engine 101. The crew hits select loco, enters 101, hits enter and away they go with engine 101 operating as the lead unit. The train gets to the other terminal and we want to put on a WWD train. We tell that crew you have engine 301. The crew hits select loco, enters 301, hits enter and away they go with engine 301 operating as the lead unit. No CV's, no consist numbers, no engines running "backwards". Its very simple.
NCE "Simple Consist" that is.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
Thank you all for your input. I am able to press the correct buttons to consist in both NCE and Digitrax, but I am more interested in learning what is going on behind the buttons, what CV-19 is actually doing with bit 7 and how CV-23 & CV-24 affect CV-3 and CV-4. To truely be any good at fixing DCC problems you have to know where to look and what to look for. You apparently can also work around some of the system limitations using JMRI if you know what is going on. So, again thanks for suggesting just push the buttons, but I'm looking for more.
Capt. Briggwhat is going on behind the buttons, what CV-19 is actually doing with bit 7 and how CV-23 & CV-24 affect CV-3 and CV-4.
I think you should start a new thread about your CV 23, 24, 3, and 4 question, since they don't appear to have any relation to CV 19 and might get lost in the conversation.
Concerning bit 7, I assume you mean bit 7 in CV 19. Page 16 in http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/tsunami_diesel_technical_reference_0213.pdf seems to have as good an explanation as you might find.
Capt. Brigg Thank you all for your input. I am able to press the correct buttons to consist in both NCE and Digitrax, but I am more interested in learning what is going on behind the buttons, what CV-19 is actually doing with bit 7 and how CV-23 & CV-24 affect CV-3 and CV-4.
Thank you all for your input. I am able to press the correct buttons to consist in both NCE and Digitrax, but I am more interested in learning what is going on behind the buttons, what CV-19 is actually doing with bit 7 and how CV-23 & CV-24 affect CV-3 and CV-4.
Bit 7 of CV19 set the normal direction of travel of that decoder when in a consist. It has no effect on CV23 or 24 except that when CV19's value is not 00 or 128, the decoder uses its consist programming.
When CV19 is set to a consist address, the settings in CV's 23 and 24 go into effect. They "enhace the settings of CV's 3 and 4 respectively. they adjust the settings in CV's 3 and 4. The previosly linked Sountraxx manual explains how they work.
to restate, CV19 only turns the rest of the consist operation CV's on.
Thanks for the link to the Tsunami Diesel Technical Reference file, it may be just what I am looking for. I only mentioned the CVs as an example and am actually interested in how all the CVs work, especially in the Digitrax and NCE systems I operate on. I think it may be possible using JMRI to program my decoders to operate more like the NCE system, but on my Digitrax layout.