I am having trouble understanding if this applies to a crossover situation with the Frog Juicer. On the Tam Valley web page http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/images/Hex_Frog_Juicer_Manual_v1_5_2p.pdf
"Multiple frogs in a row can present a problem if the total length of the frogs is greater than the locomotive wheelbase. The problem and its solution is illustrated below."
They then have a Normal illustration, which only shows one frog and then they say there could be a short. I think it illustrates a really long frog, like a #10 with a really short engine, but they don't say that and I am confused there after.
If you have a simple crossover (no reversing loop) you can have each truck on a different frog of the two turnouts that are facing and butted up against each other. Is that a problem?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I operate with standard DC and block control so this may not apply to DCC operations. However, if both frogs are powered then you shouldn't have any difficulty with locomotives of any wheelbase negotiating your crossover.
However, it is my understanding that shorts can occur at frogs on DCC layouts so perhaps someone with DCC experience can help with your question.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
If you look at the middle illustration in that section you can see the problem. Frog 1 works normally, as it's referenced to the proceeding plain rail. But Frog 2 in that illustation has no such reference in the direction fo tracel, it is only linked (by the loco pickups) to Frog 1, so the Juicer can't figure out how to set it. It's not a product flaw, it's an electrical reality.
This could absolutely apply to a crossover, depending on the type of turnouts. If they are say Atlas Custom Line with the Juicer powerign the frogs, it won't be a problem, you automatically get that section of regular track between the frogs. If you use Peco Electrofrog, you could have the problem. An insulated joiner goes in the joint between the frog rails, so you have a frog rail directly adjacent to another frog rail.
It only matters when the total frog length is more than the pickup wheelbase of the loco. In the middle image, because Frog 2 can not adjust on the entrance side, if the loco totally fits on Frog 2, it will go dead at that point. Think of the illustrated 2 sets of wheels with the bar between them as a little 0-4-0 steam loco and you can see, once it passes the gap between frog 1 and frog 2, there will be no power. A longer power pickup wheelbase loco will cross the exit of frog 2 (where the juicer can then do its job) before the trailing truck leaves the already powered frog 1, so no stalls.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
Although I'm not the OP thank you for an excellent explanation. I'm saving your comments for future reference.
Although I'm using DC with Fast Track turnouts, powered frogs and no crossover, your discussion is well worth saving.
Thank you,
Thanks Randy. Rookie mistake of not giving enuf info, they are new Walthers Code 83 #4's I should be good.
Wayne Frog Juicer says they are only for DC. In the small print they suggest a smaller gauge feeder wire like 24 or 26 as I recall.
Henry, my tournouts are handbuilt Fast Track versions with a powered and electrically isolated frog. Tortoise switch machines are used to throw the points and since they come with two internal switches (SPDT) the frog is wired to the Tortoise Switch Machine which automatically routes the correct current to the frog as the points are moved. It makes for a real trouble free and very smooth operation---I have 0-4-0s that roll through the #6 turnouts with ease.
Best wishes!
Yeah, you's have the same issue with Fast Tracks turnouts - maybe. If putting a pair of them frog to frog like a crossover, it's probable better to continue the frog rail across the pair and cut one gap in the middle if it instead of gapping right next to the frog - in fact if you extend the frog rails out, it serves as a dead section (when the turnout is thrown against the oncoming train, the frog rail will be the same polarity as the stock rail, assuming you are powering the frogs, thus causing the train to stop. Extend it out far enough and the train will stop dead before derailing). However, if you do gap exactly as instructd, you just have to run a feeder to that short section between the frogs to solve the Juicer problem, resulting it a setup as shown in the third diagram.
But yes, Juicers are for DCC only, they won't work with DC. Could have used them a few years before they came out - a friend had a handlaid code 40 N scale double slip PLUS an extra turnout embedded in it. Oh, and it was N scale FINE SCALE flange and wheel width, too. It worked perfectly mechanically, but even I couldn;t figure out a proper combination to power all the frogs with the 3 sets of avaliable Tortoise contacts - a Juicer would have handled it just fine. And those frogs needed to be powered, his locos are all scratchbuilt small lat 19th century models, most too small for motors in the loco so they have tender drives. Very small pickup wheelbases. Crazy complicated track (on Tim Warris' Bronx Terminal layout) it what prompted Duncan to develop the Frog Juicer in the first place.